pwcc auction Nov. 11
 

i was interested in the PWCC 57 Williams PSA 6.5 last night....it went for well over $600 (a solid 7 price)....clearly there was shill bidding going on, as the bidder with 98% activity with PWCC was high bidder....just dont trust his auctions, low bids or not.....Bruce Perry

Maybe, but I would maintain that there are few auction houses the size of PWCC that are actively participating in the altering of cards.

You suggested that the only reason the PSA 9 E98 Cobb sold for $20,900 in PWCC was because people don't bid in PWCC as much anymore. Well, tonight in Heritage a PSA 9 E98 Cobb sold for $19,200. The card is dead because they're a dime a dozen now as I had said.

You mean the dead centered card with excellent eye appeal that out sold a 7 in the same auction? Yea clearly it was shilled. No one pays over vcp for centered cards, right?

As to the rest of the current pwcc auction there seem to be more nice Cobb cards available compared to recent auctions. Maybe one guy consigned them all. Should be easy enough to compare prices to auctions ending this week at heritage and REA to see if the net54 boycott is hurting prices.

Any Net54 boycott has to have a tremendous effect on auction results.

After all we are such a unified monolithic caucus where seldom is heard a disparaging word and every day is filled with sunshine and good will.

I just got a record price for a 1958 Koufax PSA 4 simply because it was centered. I was shocked it brought that much. But everyone knows that of all 4 criteria, centering is boss.

Apparently not everyone knows.

Totally disagree. That's like saying the landlord in town who is ripping everyone off and got caught is going to come out of it stronger than ever after the DA is done subpoenaing them and crawling up their ass with a microscope. I guess if past history means absolutely nothing to people buying cards they will come out stronger.
Bottom line is very few if any of the cards they are selling can't be bought elsewhere.

Not everyone knows what?

Your landlord analogy is perfect here. I know a few "Slum Lords" and they do 100% always come out on top. They have been making WAY more for a very long time because of the way they do business. The getting caught is just a minor bump in the big picture. In reality the landlords have it harder because they don't have a bunch of morons and idiots making excuses for them. Strangely they do have morons and idiots lining up to do business with them even though they know what they are getting into.

One other great thing with the scammers in cards is their "friends". I noticed at first everyone hated the card doctors. Then when names started coming out many of the same people switched their hate to PSA. Guess it sucks when you find out your "friend" is a bad guy.

I agree with this. There's no shortage of other outlets who feature the same exact cards, with far less margin for error. And while PWCC may survive this (which remains to be seen, based on the severity of punishment from LE), I also believe their best days are behind them.

If only there was one landlord ripping everyone off.

One big note here is that PWCC has plenty of competition in several other auction houses. They always seemed to have 'nice stuff', but maybe that was because they were enabling the doctors to bring it to market. If that distinction of having the best stuff goes away, it would be easy for folks to walk away from PWCC. There is nothing to lose. And as soon as the buyers stop buying, the consignors will stop consigning.

PSA on the other hand, has very limited competition and unless another entrant stands up or SGC really steps up their game, that won't change. People have a lot of money on the line with the PSA entombed cards, and folks would lose a lot of money by moving from PSA.

I can see the scenario where PWCC takes a big hit but PSA keeps steam-rolling right along.

Interesting to me how many 7 and 8s Goudeys and US Caramels and Cracker Jacks PWCC used to have compared to what they sell today. I would hate to look back 2 years and take a hard look at what they were selling back then. Every auction seemed to have 3 Gehrig Goudey 7s.

Lots of people are enabling card doctors to bring their material to market.

You’re spot on with your last part.

PSA is Teflon it doesn’t matter if they grade bad cards or not. The cards keep coming in for their opinion.

That centered cards go for a premium. It seems to confuse members every time. Some assume the sale was fake, or the auction shilled. Many turn out to be legitimate transactions from collectors who stepped up to obtain a nice looking card. Some even make a post defending their purchase.

The only thing that CANT be doctored, is centering. I guess you can make it look better, but centered cards are ripe for doctors

Centering is doctored ALL THE TIME. How many hundreds of the cards exposed on BO recently have one border trimmed, to emulate the other side? The doctors are hacking off large portions of the thicker border, simply to even them up.

PSA can't (or won't) catch it, even though the altered cards are undersized. Check out the Johnny Adams Jr. thread on Blowout for many examples of this process...

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showth...333320&page=10

Yes, I didn't really understand that post.

Easier to START with a centered card was my point

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

Perhaps a tad easier I suppose, but these guys have absolutely no trouble getting their hack jobs authenticated and numerically graded by PSA.

Focusing on this portion of your response I would agree that the quickest change possible is possible here, but people have to vote with their cards and their cash.

If the cards start going to the REA's, Sterling's, LOTG's etc... the dollars will follow. Likewise if the dollars stop going to PWCC consignments the consignments will go elsewhere. This COULD be an incredibly quick process if ethics outweighed money and "stuff." Even here on Net54 which is pretty close to the epicenter of the scandal we have people still consigning and buying from bad actors. Every sale and consignment decreases the chance that the guilty parties have to find a new way to make a living.

.

Tell me, who are the good actors?

There are people who deal with others on this board with honesty and integrity. I consider them “good actors”.

There are people who have gone silent since this scandal has broke who used to post quite often on here........

Not to mention doing bulk submissions to PSA.

It’s all about the money....They still perceive PSA slabs around their cards will bring them more money when they sell.

PSA has a Teflon Business people flock to them it doesn’t matter how many altered cards they slab. Pop and Registry have them hooked like a trailer.

PSA has been smart having yet to address any of the underlying issues with their company grading tens of thousands of bad altered cards. They know people are hooked and many rely/need them for their business ....they won’t bite the hand that feeds them. This continues to prove itself day in and day out based on submission and altered cards in their holders showing up in the Major Auction Houses.
Right, Wrong or Indifferent........ PSA they’re here to stay only getting stronger.

Psa
 

I agree that PSA is getting stronger. A few months ago I was at a card show and I was looking at an SGC 30 T206 Walter Johnson. The seller was asking $450, and I thought that was a decent price, but I decided not to buy it. A couple of months later, I went to another show and looked up the dealer and asked him if he still had the Johnson, and I planned on buying it. However, he had sent it to PSA and it came back as a PSA 2. The dealer told me that now that it was in a PSA holder he was asking $650, so of course, I didn't buy it.

Same card, same grade, different grading company, but $200 higher asking price. As a buyer, that formula doesn't add up for me.

I wasn't being cryptic I named three that seem like "good guys" to me and I'm sure there are others.

I don't trim my cards. I don't add color to my cards. Let's speak hypothetically. Because there are criminals living in my town, am I supposed to move?? Some of you really need to get off the holier than thou attitude.

People are nice enough to leave your silly thread alone you should do the same.

Do you support those criminals like you support PSA? Maybe you should pull your head out of the sand and see PSA is part of the problem and people like you who keep submitting to them are also part of the problem.

I never told Gary Moser to trim cards and make millions. Meanwhile, I am struggling to make $5-$10 flipping a card. Yet I am supposed to stop submitting my raw cards to PSA because of what Gary Moser did? The soapbox mentality of some of you get old.

You did better than Diogenes, he couldn't come up with one.

In my opinion, I don't think it's reasonable or fair to expect people to take big hits to their livelihood in order to make a statement.

No, not "because of what Gary Moser did." Not at all. You stop submitting to PSA because of what PSA is accused of doing.

The point is that 'we', the community, not the lawyers, the courts or the FBI, can collectively decide the outcome of this by exercising our ability to choose who we want to deal with and who we don't.

It don't always agree with the reasoning or outcome, but this is happening everywhere we turn today. The press has even coined a term for it: 'Cancel Culture'.

I agree when talking about REAL tax paying honest dealers. BLEEP the dishonest dealers and the scabs that are not paying taxes that sell a lot of cards.

I am sure Bobby who sells a lot of cards is a honest licensed tax paying dealer because he would never be a criminal.

I agree with you on many aspects but let this thread be about bashing the bad apples lol you’re not one of them.
I have nothing against you for submitting to PSA I don’t think you’re the problem one bit :-)

My points in my previous post are direct,
to the point, and exactly what it is. That’s all I don’t begrudge anyone.

It's not a matter of holiness, Bobby. It's about principles. Your continued support of this company sends the message that their aiding and abetting the fraud being perpetrated on the hobby, not to mention the denial thereof, is a perfectly acceptable business practice.

Well said, Ed.

Do you object to REA, Heritage, and every other auction house continuing to sell PSA graded cards?

The attacks directed at Bobby are ridiculous. There are only 3 grading companies and they're all part of this scandal. Until someone decides to start a new company they're all we have. Many collectors, myself included, aren't going to start only buying raw cards.

There's a difference between selling cards that are already slabbed, and continuing to send massive submissions to a known corrupt entity. The latter is far worse, IMO.

I do believe that the large auction houses should do more research to identify potentially tainted cards and not rely solely on the slab. I also believe they should ban consignments from known card doctors and questionable submitters.

I also believe (when a tainted card is outed) that they should reveal the names of the consignors... both to the Feds and publicly. These people need to be called out, similar to how auction houses publicly identify reneging bidders. Why they continue to protect criminal submitters/consignors is beyond me.

So dealers whose livelihood depends on submitting cards should stop, and they (and their families) should take a major financial hit?

What's the difference, by the way? Selling slabbed card also perpetuates the system, keeps the cycle going.

I don't think we can condemn selling cards already in our possession. I have several myself. It's the continued enthusiastic support of PSA in the light of the recent disclosures that troubles me.

I dont agree with how bobby handles things in a lot of other areas for a number of reasons but in terms of submitting to PSA, attacking him for submitting to PSA is silly. Of course he and anyone who doesnt want to lose their shirt will submit to them. Unless others are going to pay our mortgages and kids tuition etc.

At least at this point, it is my understanding there have been no arrests and again, zero _________ (im sure you can fill in the blank) against PSA on this issue. (again correct me if i am wrong)

Regarding the question in bold...

Yes! If they stopped submitting to this particular enterprise, another more ethical competitor would inevitably surface. Sometimes you need to actually take a stand to make things better.

I am sure there were quite a few honest employees at Enron who took a similar financial hit (to name just one other corrupt company). Sometimes temporary setbacks need to happen for the greater good to prevail.

So my answer is a resounding YES.

Cards that PWCC has sold over the last few years are starting to show up elsewhere for sale. Upon looking at sales history of a particular card REA has up for auction, it was last sold by PWCC. What are we going to do? Heck if I know. For now, not bid on any PWCC auctions. But what about others sold by PWCC that are filtering out elsewhere? Hopefully, the powers that be get on the moral bandwagon and be extra careful from now on - probably the best that can realistically be done at this point.

So honest people and their families should suffer because PSA is incompetent/corrupt? Sorry, I am not with you on this one.

PWCC = tip of iceberg.

If people continue to support them, what incentive do they have to acknowledge their role in the fraud and to address the problems. We are allowing it to be business as usual for them. PSA has essentially thumbed their noses at the hobby. The only way they can be held accountable is to withhold business from them.

While I agree...if every member of net54 refused to use PSA...it wouldn't even register with PSA...imo.

Regardless of how many dealers, auction houses, or collectors stop sending cards to PSA there will be new dealers/auction houses, and collectors sending cards to them.

PSA will never acknowledge their role in grading tens of thousands of altered cards . Their volume has never been higher.

Why? Money #1 not Hobby. People are convinced cards in their holders are worth more altered or not, doesn’t matter.. How many altered cards reside in collectors collections that have been bought privately or submitted themselves....the possibilities are endless. PSA knows this will blow over....others will take the fall.

I feel what you’re saying.....it makes total sense...this industry has never made sense logic loses out when the perception of money and greed are paramount, that’s all that matters to many...the bottom line.

Gene Hackman, Dustin Hoffman, Robert Duvall, Jon Voight..


All I can do is buy the card and not the holder. I guess I could go collect Beatles records or something. Robert

If you had to guess, what percentage of collectors do you think actually know about the scandal?

well i think a larger percentage know about them that are paying $5000 plus a year versus less....or maybe its a another number but you know what i mean

someone paying at total $400 a year on 7 cards on ebay much less of a chance


but yeah..it all comes down to the buyers......if people stop buying cards in certain holders..thats where the impetus is....not people submitting them or selling them....if no buyers...the rest will take care of itself.

Less than 20%

PSA only makes money when cards are submitted to them for (re)grading. That's the difference.

A card is what it is, whether it is raw, in a PSA slab or in a penny sleeve. And that holds whether it is altered or not. I think we are now realizing that the PSA premium is not all that we (collectively) thought it was.

my opinion is WAY less. When dealers at major shows don't know what you're talking about it just hasn't penetrated.

I was going to answer myself (after REA) since Peter's question was in response was to my comment. But you did it for me.

Thanks.... that is word-for-word what I was going to say.

Agree.... 5% - 7% is my estimate of total collectors who are aware. Even less, if you factor in any real knowledge of how deep this runs.

PSA makes money when its cards sell for good value and people are encouraged to keep submitting, so I disagree with you again.

I doubt 5% of net54 members know how deep it runs. I sure don't.

PSA doesn't make any money when "people are encouraged to keep submitting". They only make money when people actually submit the cards.

A PSA entombed card can sell 100 times, increasing in value by 20% each time it sells - and PSA does not make a dime off of those transactions. Nada. Zilch.

They are not like the government who taxes you on each transaction.

The press itself has become 'Cancer Culture'

I wonder how many would be happy to see people supporting/buying from drug dealers in their neighborhood?
With that comes gun crime, B&E's, robberies and a whole host of other issues that just keeps snowballing over and over again.

It might not be the proper analogy, but one should get the idea, I would think? :rolleyes:

right, blithering morons who know about the billion $$$ scam but support it because they obviously lack education. It's absurd and laughable how people can turn a blind eye to an obvious scam. They can't stop popping. it's way too exciting to pop, I guess and spend there $$$ on idiotic things.

They will be eating cat food during retirement is my guess because they wasted their entire life without a backbone and floated aimlessly through life like a spineless amoeba.

Enjoy looking at your fake, made for slab cards, eating your cat food...

No, it's actually very good analogy...

but you are a pretty active collector like myself...you can imagine how deep, right? It runs as deep as you can imagine.

All I know is that in 1980, cards from 1906 1933, 1954 1955 etc were not in pristine condition...Almost EVER. Now you see made for slab mockeries all over the place. IT runs deep my friend.... and for a LONG TIME. Cards spinning in and out of those slabs being doctored along the way...ALL OF THEM PERIOD

Cat Food ! I love your passion And Guess what others might be in denial, you sure as hell are not! You know how long and deep this goes back. I’d venture to say 30-50% of all early Tobacco cards in PSA holders have been worked on/altered.

It's actually a terrible analogy. You are comparing a card grader to a drug dealer. Think about that for a moment.

A better analogy is selling your 1978 Fiat and then going back to the Fiat enthusiasts chat board and telling everyone how crummy Fiat's are. It's just a hobby. I try to enjoy it for what it is.

I told myself yesterday that I really need to do the bolded part. For a long time I have tried to help people not get scammed. For the most part all it has done is cause me grief. It is super easy to con someone, it is almost impossible to convince that same person they have been conned.:confused:

Falling on deaf ears and sounding like a broken record on Net54 to the same crowd.

More importantly let's get this thread back on track. How are the December results panning out?

They had some excellent Cobb's go off in auction last night!

The low pop, low grade mello mints sold well. I swung and missed on all 4. I really wanted the Tinker, it's a tough one.

And, Ben, no worries, I'm not a graded card guy. I'll be okay. Thanks, Rob

The Tinker sold at LOTG for $2400 in 2016, and yesterday for just over $1500-- market was a bit drier for the card this go 'round.

e105
 

I hope they come down some more, so I can collect this set again. I should have kept bidding on the e105 Evers in Heritage. the winner of that one got a nice card.

and at a fabulous price. Too many auctions going at once stopped me from going after it.

Like the drug dealer, if you keep supporting them then they won't change, but will in fact, bring more harm to the neighborhood/hobby like I already mentioned.

Think about that for a moment.