Duly not that some examination can be done with the card in the holder. For example microscopy, infrared, opacity and blacklight. I've successfully used a microscope and black light on cards in PSA holders.

Though, it's important to remove the card for proper investigation-- but it would be cool, and very much possible, for some alterations to be scientifically identified with the card still in the holder. A method for this could be developed.

For the record, I firmly very don't believe modern technology can or will be able to make passable counterfeits (meaning counterfeits that will pass experts using proper identification methods).

The scans could further be used to identify future alterations, regrades, provenance etc and demonstrate that professional holders are not required. Further the scans allow the cards to be examined by experts without the need for the of the in-person card. Some sort of computer/AI software would identify the card and its history.

My limited observations from the Blowout Forum is that tally of discovered doctored cards is ever increasing at a still alarming rate and the cumulative damages are far from trivial. It would be very informative if they had a spreadsheet compiling of all of their findings and see what we're talking about in terms of the sum total of final prices of doctored cards discovered. I'm guessing we're talking about multiple millions dollars which is well above their warranty limits which is not only for cards but also for coins.

Also, a CEO of a publicly traded company has a fiduciary duty towards it's shareholders which includes loyalty, good faith and fair dealing and exercising candor on material company matters. Orlando's responses and actions during that analyst meeting may warrant some serious scrutiny regarding his duties.

I also find it rather amusing that card submissions have been on the increase the last several years. Maybe everyone and their brother wants to make big money doctoring cards while the market is still hot. ;)

Logical next step is to get in the Boards ear...
http://investors.collectors.com/board-directors

Good point. I would probably be taken more seriously if I had stock in the company. :)

As Corey has said many times, it is not PSA who determines the value of cards, it's the potential buyer. If a new grading service is able to determine that cards previously holdered were altered, the next buyer will decide what he is willing to pay. Maybe PSA will do nothing and never admit they made any mistakes, but that doesn't prevent a future buyer from rejecting any or every card he deems problematic.

It will entirely be market based. The TPG opinion will be meaningless.

Of course, what will happen if somebody develops a new technology that can detect tampering is that people with a vested interest in PSA cards will forcefully demean and reject the findings of the new company. They will state that the new technology is flawed and can't be trusted. They'll find a couple of mistakes the new company made and say that their grades are no more reliable than the old ones, and that they shouldn't be trusted.

Or more accurately, "they [TOO] shouldn't be trusted".

I'm not holding my breath on the inclusion of "too." :)

Perhaps, but just as PSA doesn't set the value of cards, so too will the sellers' rejections of the new technology not have any impact on the market value of their registry cards. Again, what matters will be what the buyers think of the new technology, and presumably they will look to evaluations done by respected impartial third parties, not biased sellers.

That is true. But the old guard will refuse restitution because they will say they do not accept the new findings.

If you had stock in the company you would be thrilled with Joe. :)

Lots of guys if a new TPG starts blowing PSA out of the water. Admittedly that's not happening tomorrow.

I tend to see it as a company, but publishing of standard methods to identify alterations that many people, groups could use.

For a simple example, many collectors use a black light.

Though, certainly, with the available techniques and technologies, company or companies could do the work.

Personally, I would love it if any auction house or serious/advanced collector or dealer had the ability to examine holdered cards for alterations. Considering a learned collector or dealer would spend more time on any given card, they may prove better than the assembly line grading company.

I imagine a scanning/imaging system that not only would identify alterations but give an image as evidence, including evidence that can be emailed, posted, etc. Anything you examine can be photographed, and there are UV/IR cameras and digital microscopes that take digital photos. There are such advanced forensic light/imaging systems already. Thus, it's no longer "someone far away looked at it and said so and so," but here are the forensic images that were made for all to see.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=5032
That's up to Page 200 or so of just that Mantle thread, not including Robert Block or the most recent HawkDynasty exposure thread.

No matter, we don't see it as material.

Thanks.

Coupled with the "fraction of people who choose to do nothing more than complain about how third-party systems are imperfect".

Presuming PSA can get all the scammers to buy back their own cards, he's right. That's a big 'IF' though.

The first step towards that would be making a database or even a list of what the card should be if unaltered. Not just the usual standard size, but thickness, specifically how it reacts to UV, etc.

Yes.

This is actually something that should be looked into, and would solve many of the problems that currently exist.

As noted, forensic light systems, which go through the whole range of frequencies, exist and are used in other areas. And there could be a company or service that just provides the scans.

I also thing microscopic, or very large, scans be simultaneously be done to authenticate of the card. I have people email microscopic images or huge scans, and I can identify real from fake from those.

There are also systems that mathematically calculate the gloss by shining slightly off from head-on light at the surface, and systems for measuring the opacity (how much light goes through the material) These could be parts of the scanning systems.

In the future, cards may be able to be identified, authenticated and checked for alterations just via scans. And the great thing about scans is many people all over the place can look at them.

I couldnt agree more -that card've value is tied to PSA and Bill Mastro. It's now well documented history just like the All-Star Cafe Wagner. It seems to me that only average people are held accountable for their actions -not companies in the same manner. It also appears that a pass is being granted to certain individuals of these companies to keep that money train rolling...Am I wrong here?

There should be one set of standards for all and pardon me, but if a guy like Joe Orlando kept getting visited by the FBI tame and again...you know, if the shoe fits.

Now, my question be for all those lawyers -If law enforcement takes notes during questioning of a suspect, do those notes fall under FOIA afterwards?

FOIA exception for investigatory privilege. It's complicated and no personal experience. 5 USC 552(b)(7).

(7) records or information compiled for law enforcement purposes, but only to the extent that the production of such law enforcement records or information (A) could reasonably be expected to interfere with enforcement proceedings, (B) would deprive a person of a right to a fair trial or an impartial adjudication, (C) could reasonably be expected to constitute an unwarranted invasion of personal privacy, (D) could reasonably be expected to disclose the identity of a confidential source, including a State, local, or foreign agency or authority or any private institution which furnished information on a confidential basis, and, in the case of a record or information compiled by criminal law enforcement authority in the course of a criminal investigation or by an agency conducting a lawful national security intelligence investigation, information furnished by a confidential source, (E) would disclose techniques and procedures for law enforcement investigations or prosecutions, or would disclose guidelines for law enforcement investigations or prosecutions if such disclosure could reasonably be expected to risk circumvention of the law, or (F) could reasonably be expected to endanger the life or physical safety of any individual;

Nominated for post of the year.

PSA JAPAN CELEBRATES ONE YEAR ANNIVERSARY

https://blog.psacard.com/2019/08/30/...r-anniversary/
http://https://blog.psacard.com/wp-c...ar-870x500.jpg

“It was challenging but at the same time exciting in taking the first footsteps in the inaugural journey where no grading company had gone.”

Those were the proud words spoken by PSA Japan Business Director Tony Aram when asked to describe his first year at the helm in Central Tokyo.

Aram, a bilingual financial expert, collector and longtime resident of Japan, spearheaded PSA’s first venture into the Far East and helped cultivate overseas business for the industry’s top third-party authentication and grading company. His year-long journey started with some basic steps that included registering the company, finding an office and adequate storage space, creating a Japanese website, and even designing his own business cards. It also included attending local card shows and debuting a new PSA company booth, answering questions from curious onlookers and, ultimately, earning the trust of Japanese collectors, many of whom weren’t even aware of card authentication, grading and encapsulation.

“The concept of authenticating and grading cards and/or autographs was largely unknown to most Japanese collectors,” said Aram. “Collectors here seem to be very much content with their raw card collections. But as I’ve had the chance to explain what PSA does, collectors started coming around.

“In general, people are reluctant to change or in accepting new ideas. But Japanese collectors are very much like their U.S. counterparts. They enjoy showing off their collections and they’re interested in preserving them. They also hope their collections will increase in value. So, I know it’s just a matter of time before PSA’s brand and services will become must-haves for collectors here in the future.”


PSA’s 33 millionth certified collectible
Toward that end, after attending numerous card shows and spreading the word about PSA, Aram is proud to report that monthly submissions are on the uptick. In fact, August established another benchmark for the company in card submissions.

“Since November we have seen new records being set almost every other month,” he said. “What’s promising is that I see many first-time submitters who are submitting for a second time. They are also providing images with positive comments on social media platforms like Instagram and Facebook when they get their cards back. That all helps PSA’s brand to be recognized in the overseas market.”

While it has certainly been a year of firsts for PSA Japan, one of the proudest moments for Aram came when a Japanese card submission of a 1993 Magic: The Gathering Black Lotus Beta was recognized as PSA’s 33 millionth collectible certified. The card received a grade of PSA Near Mint-Mint 8, which has since generated more than 44,000 views on YouTube.

“I see social media as being one of the keys to our continued growth,” he added.

As for what Year 2 will bring and what Aram can do to build on the momentum that’s already been generated, he doesn’t hesitate to answer.

“I will be focusing on training more and more dealers and shop owners on how to accept submissions from customers at their shops,” he said. “I hope to train them so that they become almost like our sales and marketing force on the ground. Hopefully, that helps cultivate even more collectors in regions outside of Tokyo as well.

“Collectors will find it comforting if they are able to make first-time submissions directly over the counter at their favorite card dealer shops rather than sending them in by mail to PSA Japan’s office only to be forwarded to company headquarters in California for authentication and grading.”

So all Joe has to do is pay off Zuck and all negative content about PSA on FB will go poof due to their rigid and consistent standards prohibiting hate speech.:rolleyes:

I'll take a shot at FOIA question. From 1975-80 I worked in the office of the Department of Justice that processed administrative appeals from denials by the FBI for access to its records. In that capacity, I read boatloads of FBI investigative files.

There were never any agent's notes. At least back in the day, any such notes were converted to a typed statement (302) that was included in the file and I assume the notes then destroyed. [I assume this process has now been computerized.] So, the real question is whether any such Orlando 302s could be obtained by a third party under FOIA.

I think the answer is likely 'no.' As to pending investigations, those records are entirely exempt from access. See (b)(7)(A) in Peter's post. As to closed investigations, the problem is privacy. See (b)(7)(C). Unless Orlando waives his privacy interest, the records would not be available to any third party. There are exceptions for enormous public interest (think JFK assassination files) and maybe in the situation where the information is already in the public domain, as where Orlando had testified at trial.

Mark
Thanks for sharing your wisdom from experiences:) and hope all is well your way.

Back to the original thought, stocks go up and down in valuation based somewhat on perception. For now, according to the stock price, there doesn't seem to be anything going wrong. Full speed ahead, damn the torpedoes. :eek:

I'm going through PSA's SEC Filings and there's a lot here to digest, pick a part and question, but I have a question about this -

"Government Regulation
With the exception of laws in some states that require memorabilia authenticators to certify to the accuracy of their authentication opinions, there
are no material government regulations specifically relating to the authentication and grading businesses that we conduct, other than regulations that
apply generally to businesses operating in the markets where we maintain operations or conduct business".

Which states require authenticators to certify to the accuracy of their opinions? What does this process involve? Thanks.

Mark, I appreciate the answer you gave, pretty informative -Thank you!

I know California was passing some law about autographs. Not sure how it ended up. PSA didn't move out of CA so it must not affect them too much.

I have to wonder when the legal issue of "duty of care" comes to play. If law enforcement and/or a civil court reach the conclusion that PSA has no clue how to detect alterations to cards and yet they advertise that "PSA looks for evidence of doctoring, such as re-coloring or trimming", one would think they could not be allowed to continue their operation for at the very least common law negligence or even gross negligence or possibly even fraud if no effort nor diligence whatsoever is used in their determination. Just rendering an opinion that it doesn't look altered is pretty lame.

https://www.psacard.com/services/tradingcardgrading

I don't think the government is going to shut PSA down, that isn't how things work. What court is going to issue that order, regardless of what it or a jury finds? This is a firm authenticating baseball cards, not a firm selling an inherently dangerous product or otherwise threatening people's lives or well-being.

Sadly, I think you’re right...

But perhaps the Gov’t could force a mandatory “on-slab” disclaimer stating that continued reliance on PSA can be detrimental to your collection. Kind of like those warnings on Cigarette Packs, stating that smoking can be dangerous to your health. Seems that’s the very least they could do. ;)

lmao!

Yeah a warning from the Card Surgeon General.

You rang?

A draft is already in the works. Just needs a bit of a trim to fit on the slab.