Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 1906325)

I agree it's hyperbole but it may not be entirely inaccurate. I am sure there are and were AHs that sent cards to be altered.

Originally Posted by benjulmag (Post 1906321)

Unless and until there is a grading option that can detect expert alterations, I agree not much is likely to change. But, and this is perhaps where we differ, I believe such a grading option is inevitable. The reason -- if done properly it could make some people very rich. Financial incentive is very powerful, and here I believe it is viable.

I know for a fact some people are looking at it very seriously and significant sums are being raised as startup capital. And if the new model works and alterations can be detected, how can the floodgates not be opened? The money required to effectively market the new company and expose the IMO staggering percentage of vintage high grade alterations will be insignificant compared to the money required for the startup.

Imagine the following. Once this happens this new company is set up at the National with a red portrait T206 Cobb in its "8" holder, and next to it is a PSA "8" of the same card. And next to both of these cards is last month's Forbes's magazine article heralding this new TPG and reciting statistics that out of a random selection of 454 T206 PSA "8s", 78% have been exposed by this new grading method as altered in one fashion or another and placed in "A" slabs. Which "8" T206 red portrait Cobb card do you think would sell for more at that juncture, the one in the PSA holder or the one in the new TPG holder?

The whales can yell, kick, scream all they want, but that will not silence the market forces at play here.

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide (Post 1906329)

I have no doubt. Mastro and Allen were definitely doctoring cards. I also have no doubt that REA and LOTG are not and I think of both of them as major auction houses in our hobby.

Originally Posted by mferronibc (Post 1906259)

I think PSA is well aware of what a slippery slope this is. Even if they are coming up with more advanced technology to identify alterations in response to what is going on, I think there will be a lot of hesitation to roll it out. They'll basically have thousands of people who paid $$$ for a high graded card 5 years ago resubmitting and now being told the same card is altered and only worth $ and collectors will demand the $$ difference from PSA as it was their oversight in the first place when it was originally graded. Class action anyone??

I think it is going to take a new company with better technology to take on PSA and dethrone them as king (as least initially until this new company becomes just as corrupt over time and we're back where we started).

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide (Post 1906312)

Are the whales ready to reholder thousands of cards with a new company? Will the new company start a registry? They would have no reason to jump if it doesn't because it's about the competition and the number on the slab. It's going to be so much easier to accept "conservation and alteration".

Call me a cynic, but there is already a certain acceptance of fraud in this hobby. How many years in a row can the FBI arrest or hand out subpoenas at the National? The fake T206 autographs are already in the rear view mirror. Mastro, Allen and Rogers all went to prison, did that deter PWCC, Moser, SSS and the probably hundreds of other card doctors from forging onward with their fraudulent activity? Nope 2 out of 3 of them were set up at the National pretending it was business as usual.

The hobby's white knight, the fiercest opponent of the fraudsters in the hobby who claimed his employment as PWCC counsel would be the best thing for the hobby is already minimizing PWCC's involvement in fraud that likely dwarfs Mastro and Allen.

Yeah, things will change, but not how we want them to.

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide (Post 1906312)

Are the whales ready to reholder thousands of cards with a new company? Will the new company start a registry? They would have no reason to jump if it doesn't because it's about the competition and the number on the slab. It's going to be so much easier to accept "conservation and alteration".

Call me a cynic, but there is already a certain acceptance of fraud in this hobby. How many years in a row can the FBI arrest or hand out subpoenas at the National? The fake T206 autographs are already in the rear view mirror. Mastro, Allen and Rogers all went to prison, did that deter PWCC, Moser, SSS and the probably hundreds of other card doctors from forging onward with their fraudulent activity? Nope 2 out of 3 of them were set up at the National pretending it was business as usual.

The hobby's white knight, the fiercest opponent of the fraudsters in the hobby who claimed his employment as PWCC counsel would be the best thing for the hobby is already minimizing PWCC's involvement in fraud that likely dwarfs Mastro and Allen.

Yeah, things will change, but not how we want them to.

Originally Posted by rats60 (Post 1906344)

But what about the new buyer of these high dollar high grade cards? Why wouldn't they want to send them to a second company for a second opinion as to if the card is altered? If you were paying 5 or 6 figures for a card, wouldn't you want to know it was unaltered and would hold its value in the future?

Originally Posted by taul166 (Post 1906428)

As I recall and someone can correct me if I am wrong or if events have changed anything, but didn't PSA commit to doing a thorough investigation and report back on its findings to all stakeholders? Did PSA commit to a timeline for doing this and have they issued any interim statements or findings yet?

Originally Posted by markf31 (Post 1906299)

"Aside those listed here, every major auction I know of employs card doctors."

Its one thing to question auction houses on their knowledge of specific slabbed cards that are suspected of having been doctored, its another to make the accusation that they all actively employ card doctors. This is a statement that goes a little too far and IMO casts at least a little doubt on the veracity of the other claims made in the letter.

Originally Posted by Hot Springs Bathers (Post 1906304)

"I'm the friendly stranger in the black sedan" Vehicle

Originally Posted by perezfan (Post 1906360)

I certainly would...

And as for Dan's point about the fake T206 Signed cards being behind us....

Sure people aren't talking about it as much anymore. But that's largely because of the new bigger revelations of PWCC/PSA taking hold. And even though the fake signed T206s are no longer at the top of the message boards, people DO remember it. And I believe these collectors are far more hesitant to delve into that arena now. I have seen very few examples (if any) since that news broke, and think it will be far more difficult now to get these examples past the autograph experts.

Hopefully the card altering scandal will carry far more specific long-term ramifications for the TPAs, as well as jail time for those who have continually defrauded us.

Originally Posted by blametony (Post 1906995)

Frankly, I'm stunned that PSA has not addressed the issue of the "trimmed" Wagner. It's been decades since the facts have come about regarding it's trimming. Why have they not recalled it or changed it in their database as altered???

They consistently point to that Wagner as the pinnacle of the hobby and a testament to their service yet everyone knows it's trimmed and therefore a fraud. Why they would make a fraudulent card the cornerstone of their business is beyond me. It just goes to show you how much they opt for marketing over integrity.

Originally Posted by blametony (Post 1906995)

Frankly, I'm stunned that PSA has not addressed the issue of the "trimmed" Wagner. It's been decades since the facts have come about regarding it's trimming. Why have they not recalled it or changed it in their database as altered???

They consistently point to that Wagner as the pinnacle of the hobby and a testament to their service yet everyone knows it's trimmed and therefore a fraud. Why they would make a fraudulent card the cornerstone of their business is beyond me. It just goes to show you how much they opt for marketing over integrity.

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide (Post 1906999)

The fact that they have not taken responsibility for that card should be a warning to everyone that their guarantee is virtually worthless. The owner of the card doesn’t even care that it was cut from a sheet so it’s not like he’s going to go after PSA. I think they’d be safe in issuing a mea culpa but some lawyer somewhere probably has advised them against it.

Originally Posted by blametony (Post 1906995)

Frankly, I'm stunned that PSA has not addressed the issue of the "trimmed" Wagner. It's been decades since the facts have come about regarding it's trimming. Why have they not recalled it or changed it in their database as altered???

They consistently point to that Wagner as the pinnacle of the hobby and a testament to their service yet everyone knows it's trimmed and therefore a fraud. Why they would make a fraudulent card the cornerstone of their business is beyond me. It just goes to show you how much they opt for marketing over integrity.

Originally Posted by Promethius88 (Post 1906479)

What did SGC do about the fakes besides close down their autograph division? I don't recall seeing numbers or dollar amounts of fake autos in SGC holders or refunds being given on any of those. A lot of talk about PSA, which there should be, but not much on SGC or BGS who both are in deep in both of these scandals.

Originally Posted by perezfan (Post 1907092)

SGC terminating their autograph division was at least a response... and a stealth admission of guilt to some degree. Certainly more than Orlando/Sloan/PSA have fessed up to.

An analysis of the altered vintage cards (to come to light so far) was conducted in one of the BO threads. Among other things it concluded that to date, nearly $1.8 million worth of fakes have been sold, with the breakdown by TPA as follows...

PSA 95%
SGC 4.5%
BVG 0.5%

Originally Posted by perezfan (Post 1907092)

SGC terminating their autograph division was at least a response... and a stealth admission of guilt to some degree. Certainly more than Orlando/Sloan/PSA have fessed up to.

An analysis of the altered vintage cards (to come to light so far) was conducted in one of the BO threads. Among other things it concluded that to date, nearly $1.8 million worth of fakes have been sold, with the breakdown by TPA as follows...

PSA 95%
SGC 4.5%
BVG 0.5%

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide (Post 1906999)

The fact that they have not taken responsibility for that card should be a warning to everyone that their guarantee is virtually worthless. The owner of the card doesn’t even care that it was cut from a sheet so it’s not like he’s going to go after PSA. I think they’d be safe in issuing a mea culpa but some lawyer somewhere probably has advised them against it.

Originally Posted by perezfan (Post 1907092)

SGC terminating their autograph division was at least a response... and a stealth admission of guilt to some degree. Certainly more than Orlando/Sloan/PSA have fessed up to.

An analysis of the altered vintage cards (to come to light so far) was conducted in one of the BO threads. Among other things it concluded that to date, nearly $1.8 million worth of fakes have been sold, with the breakdown by TPA as follows...

PSA 95%
SGC 4.5%
BVG 0.5%

Originally Posted by Fuddjcal (Post 1907192)

Nice job by those guys! They have uncovered 1.8 million of the 1 Billion out there. Good luck finding the rest.

Originally Posted by perezfan (Post 1907210)

Well BO did uncover a ton more just yesterday and today...

Some of them trimmed so thin that it's inconceivable they passed authentication. PSA seems to be hypnotized by Moser's phony rough-cut borders, to the extent that they won't even measure the cards. In most cases, the original card (typically 2 grades lower) is the FAR better looking card.

Their randomly/incorrectly assigned numerical grading has caused the current hobby to become so twisted and backwards, with lots more cardboard on the cutting-room floor. :(

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 1907424)

IMO the vast majority of card doctoring over the years has been on cards purchased raw, which never will be traced unless TPGs release their submission records which they never will do publicly. And even for cards purchased graded, the universe is just too big to be able to find most of them.

We literally have seen the tip of the iceberg, from an overall hobby perspective.

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide (Post 1906017)

I really don't think anyone will be able to take on PSA and the registry. Brent was either prescient with his alteration/conservation post back in June or maybe he knew something was coming around the bend?? Tee Hee... Anyway the trend will be towards acceptance of alterations. Perhaps there will be a limit to what will be acceptable but it's coming. Guaranteed. I will also guarantee that if someone at another grading service or a new grading service offers up 99.9% fraud detection in their slabs that PSA will adopt every one of those detections and the new company will wither and die in short order.

The registry drives the money in this hobby.

Originally Posted by Fuddjcal (Post 1907192)

Nice job by those guys! They have uncovered 1.8 million of the 1 Billion out there. Good luck finding the rest.

Originally Posted by egbeachley (Post 1907528)

That happens in a couple years when the card doctors admit that “all” their submissions over the last 10-15 years contained alterations. Then the $@.8 million becomes $180 million.

Originally Posted by bnorth (Post 1907549)

Anybody that doesn't realize there are WAY WAY more card doctors that have not been pointed out and that they all have been submitting loads of altered cards for the last 10-20+ years are clue less.:eek::)

I still wonder why so many think PSA was just doing a horrible job.:confused:

Originally Posted by bnorth (Post 1907549)

Anybody that doesn't realize there are WAY WAY more card doctors that have not been pointed out and that they all have been submitting loads of altered cards for the last 10-20+ years are clue less.:eek::)

I still wonder why so many think PSA was just doing a horrible job.:confused:

Originally Posted by Fuddjcal (Post 1907671)

The card entire industry is forever tainted...especially PSA. the most trusted name in sports cards is in on the biggest swindle America has ever seen. It's bigger than Bernie Madoff, IMHO. My friend who is a Producer at Net Flix was asking me questions about the FAKE CARDS SCAM (as he called it) at our weekly poker game. We had 600K already raised for the project in 5 minutes after they heard what kind of wool has been pulled over the sheoples eyes.

Originally Posted by barrysloate (Post 1907675)

The Bernie Madoff scandal was somewhere around $50 billion. Do you really think this is bigger than Madoff? I'm not so sure about that.

Originally Posted by frankbmd (Post 1907677)

If Madoff wasn't a PSA fan, you may be right.:eek:

Originally Posted by barrysloate (Post 1907675)

The Bernie Madoff scandal was somewhere around $50 billion. Do you really think this is bigger than Madoff? I'm not so sure about that.

Originally Posted by Promethius88 (Post 1907687)

Yes, I believe that HE honestly believes it. He has stated in many posts that he will never purchase a card again, the whole hobby is tainted, nobody can be trusted, etc. It's obvious he his not a collector and just comes here for the drama at this point. If you aren't collecting there really seems to be no other reason to come to this forum multiple times a day. If there was something in life that got me so worked up, I guess I would find something better to do with my time.

Originally Posted by bnorth (Post 1907695)

Chuck has to make up for all the people saying it is a small percentage of cards that are altered. IMHO they are WAY more delusional than Chuck. Maybe he is passionate about cards and the reason he posts about the fraud constantly.

I know I am baffled beyond belief how so many are trying to minimize what is going on. I do get their reason though. I sincerely hope karma is a real thing.:)

Originally Posted by Johnny630 (Post 1907696)

They minimize what is happening because they’re profiting off selling/pushing PSA Slabbed cards or they’re holding thousands of dollars of PSA slabbed cards in Registry sets or as investment hordes.

This has long time been a major cause of why this Sh#T continues...we have all known what has been going on for over 25 years yet it’s always played downed and Hushed Off. To many people are making money, AH’s Dealers, eBay Sellers, and collectors a like. They only care about money and greed. I still think something is being worked out to accept some form of altering as restorative legitimacy....such a farce and more Bull To The Sh+T

Originally Posted by Johnny630 (Post 1907696)

They minimize what is happening because they’re profiting off selling/pushing PSA Slabbed cards or they’re holding thousands of dollars of PSA slabbed cards in Registry sets or as investment hordes.

This has long time been a major cause of why this Sh#T continues...we have all known what has been going on for over 25 years yet it’s always played downed and Hushed Off. To many people are making money, AH’s Dealers, eBay Sellers, and collectors a like. They only care about money and greed. I still think something is being worked out to accept some form of altering as restorative legitimacy....such a farce and more Bull To The Sh+T

Originally Posted by Johnny630 (Post 1907696)

They minimize what is happening because they’re profiting off selling/pushing PSA Slabbed cards or they’re holding thousands of dollars of PSA slabbed cards in Registry sets or as investment hordes.

This has long time been a major cause of why this Sh#T continues...we have all known what has been going on for over 25 years yet it’s always played downed and Hushed Off. To many people are making money, AH’s Dealers, eBay Sellers, and collectors a like. They only care about money and greed. I still think something is being worked out to accept some form of altering as restorative legitimacy....such a farce and more Bull To The Sh+T

Originally Posted by benjulmag (Post 1907727)

the price that buyer will be willing to pay will indicate his/her "acceptance" of any such restorative legitimacy.

Originally Posted by perezfan (Post 1907733)

Even here, it seems like there are less than 30 people who regularly express outrage, or post on it honestly and objectively.

So unless the word spreads a lot further (or the Law cracks down hard) it will just be status quo. They’ve gotta keep their gravy train from derailing at all costs.

Originally Posted by CobbSpikedMe (Post 1907738)

I think the registry guys will show plenty of acceptance of the restorative legitimacy of all of this. They have to protect their investments.

Originally Posted by benjulmag (Post 1907744)

As long as these registry guys are buying and selling only amongst themselves, they will have the ability to have current market pricing accept the concept of restorative legitimacy. But to hold value new buyers will need to enter the hobby. And it is THOSE NEW BUYERS, people who have no loyalty to any grading method and no horse in the race as to whether currently graded cards hold value, who will determine future market prices.

Originally Posted by perezfan (Post 1907733)

Well said...

But you neglected to mention the biggest money-maker of all... PSA.

Just imagine what might happen to them if even 1/4 of the collecting public knew about this. Right now, I’d estimate that less than 5% are even aware. I asked around at the National, and roughly 1 out of 20 people were aware of the Card Scandal or Slabgate. It wasn’t a scientific survey by any means... but it does demonstrate how few people are clued-in to the problems.

Of those few who are aware, the vast majority remain silent for the financial reasons stated above. And the sleuths uncovering the massive fraud are reprimanded/minimized (by Sloan, Orlando and all of the PSA apologists who claim that under 1% of numerically graded cards are altered). Just say nothing and it will go away! Even here, it seems like there are less than 30 people who regularly express outrage, or post on it honestly and objectively.

So unless the word spreads a lot further (or the Law cracks down hard) it will just be status quo. They’ve gotta keep their gravy train from derailing at all costs.

Originally Posted by perezfan (Post 1907733)

Well said...

But you neglected to mention the biggest money-maker of all... PSA.

Just imagine what might happen to them if even 1/4 of the collecting public knew about this. Right now, I’d estimate that less than 5% are even aware. I asked around at the National, and roughly 1 out of 20 people were aware of the Card Scandal or Slabgate. It wasn’t a scientific survey by any means... but it does demonstrate how few people are clued-in to the problems.

Of those few who are aware, the vast majority remain silent for the financial reasons stated above. And the sleuths uncovering the massive fraud are reprimanded/minimized (by Sloan, Orlando and all of the PSA apologists who claim that under 1% of numerically graded cards are altered). Just say nothing and it will go away! Even here, it seems like there are less than 30 people who regularly express outrage, or post on it honestly and objectively.

So unless the word spreads a lot further (or the Law cracks down hard) it will just be status quo. They’ve gotta keep their gravy train from derailing at all costs.

Originally Posted by CobbSpikedMe (Post 1907738)

I think the registry guys will show plenty of acceptance of the restorative legitimacy of all of this. They have to protect their investments.



I don't comment too often on all of this because I find most of my opinions continually get posted before I can get them posted myself. I feel like PSA is a huge part of the problem, PWCC knew what was going on and was complicit in the whole thing and I hope the FBI do bring charges on someone. I wish more collectors knew about the scandal also. I agree there are way too few who know anything about it.

Originally Posted by benjulmag (Post 1907744)

As long as these registry guys are buying and selling only amongst themselves, they will have the ability to have current market pricing accept the concept of restorative legitimacy. But to hold value new buyers will need to enter the hobby. And it is THOSE NEW BUYERS, people who have no loyalty to any grading method and no horse in the race as to whether currently graded cards hold value, who will determine future market prices.

Originally Posted by chalupacollects (Post 1907785)

Which makes me think that someone should create an altered/conserved card registry with before and after photos, slab numbers etc...even though people can still crack and resubmit would still be helpful...

Originally Posted by irv (Post 1907782)

I had read prior to the National some were talking about handing out papers/information about the scandal to those waiting in line and to those already inside. Did anyone do that or see anyone else doing that while there?

I (for one) did not see even a hint of it. Was looking around for any sign of Flyers, Signs or the Moser/Orlando/Huygens Cards that were produced. But never saw a thing. Guess it just goes to show what a small minority we are within the hobby.

Did anyone else here witness any calling out of PWCC, Beckett or PSA?

Originally Posted by barrysloate (Post 1907675)

The Bernie Madoff scandal was somewhere around $50 billion. Do you really think this is bigger than Madoff? I'm not so sure about that.

Originally Posted by chalupacollects (Post 1907785)

Which makes me think that someone should create an altered/conserved card registry with before and after photos, slab numbers etc...even though people can still crack and resubmit would still be helpful...

Originally Posted by jason.1969 (Post 1907826)

Folks can accuse me of thinking the sky is falling, but here's where I'm at.

1. I believe [emoji817] that PSA's numerical grades are BS and assigned preferentially to big customers.

2. Seeing a PSA numerical grade gives me zero confidence a card has not been altered.

3. Seeing a PSA/DNA authentication of an autograph gives me know confidence the autograph is authentic.

I think it would take new management and a lot of transparency to ever get me back on board.

Jason Schwartz
Western Springs, IL

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

Originally Posted by Fuddjcal (Post 1908079)

you're probably right, I stand corrected. Not even in my wildest dreams do I think it's 50 Billion but, who really knows? This "musical chairs" has been going on ad nauseam for 20 years now. You would agree the magnitude is HUGE?

Originally Posted by barrysloate (Post 1908146)

Yes, I do believe the magnitude is huge. I don't think it's a matter of just a few bad cards.

Originally Posted by WhenItWasAHobby (Post 1908202)

I agree Barry. Of course it's huge. It's been going on rampantly for 15+ years.

Originally Posted by Leon (Post 1908580)

In 1996 Daniel Desmond said he had restored thousands of cards in the VCBC 7 article he was quoted in. We know he is still doing it today, a mere 23 years later.

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=270622

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=253875
.

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 1908587)

And why not, it's steady work and the pay is good, and there seems to be no risk.

Originally Posted by CuriousGeorge (Post 1908597)

I would think anyone who has the FBI knocking on their door would disagree with that statement and say there is risk. Now I know no one has been arrested yet, no civil lawsuits or death sentences, but I suspect having the FBI investigating your life cannot be pleasant.

Originally Posted by samosa4u (Post 1908599)

On pg 47 of the article, DD states that "the sale of restored cards, priced and sold as restored cards could create a whole new market. It would give the average collector a chance to own the high end cards in beautiful condition for a fraction of the normal cost, cards that they could never otherwise afford."

The problem with this is that any card that gets restored is not going to be sold as a restored card, nor will it be priced as a restored card.

On the same page, DD also said that PSA was thinking of getting him to work as a consultant for them, but in the end it just didn't work out. Well, I think that would have been a great idea. PSA should have worked with all the best card doctors in the hobby. It would only make them better at detecting restorations.

Originally Posted by peter_spaeth (Post 1908600)

if i had made millions doctoring cards, i wouldn't find paying a little restitution a huge inconvenience.

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 1908600)

If I had made millions doctoring cards, I wouldn't find paying a little restitution a huge inconvenience. We'll see if it ends up being any more than that. And most of these guys are smart enough to have stayed under the radar anyhow. I doubt anyone is knocking on their doors.

I would love to be wrong about this, of course. They all should be punished severely. But it's baseball cards.

Originally Posted by CuriousGeorge (Post 1908622)

I’m not as familiar with the FBI as an attorney like you may be, but they don’t strike me as an organization set up to play the role of mediator and work nicely to help get some restitution back for people. In fact Mastro and Allen went to jail and never even had to pay a penny back! I’m kind of thinking there has to be more to this but what do I know?

Originally Posted by drcy (Post 1908606)

I firmly believe that, in the future and perhaps near future, all cards from now and retroactively will be able to be identified-- and the hobby and collectors will be able to deal with that.

The idea that altered cards will remain undetected (except for those who don't want them examined) is false.

Though, duly note that there have been instances where cards have been restored, represented and graded as such. With the means to identify all altered cards, this may be a wave of the future.

Originally Posted by Leon (Post 1908628)

I don't know about that. If I were a betting person I would say restitution might come into play in the final punishment (if there is any). But then again, what do I know? I am just a layperson running a chatboard.

Originally Posted by perezfan (Post 1908630)

I hope you're right...

But it will never happen if PSA is still ruling the roost in the TPG world. A new better company will need to emerge, to render PSA (and it's tens of thousands of mis-graded cards) obsolete. PSA would NEVER take the responsibility to do so themselves, as evidenced by recent statements from Sloan and Orlando.

Obviously a big "ask", but hope it can happen.

Originally Posted by CuriousGeorge (Post 1908622)

I’m not as familiar with the FBI as an attorney like you may be, but they don’t strike me as an organization set up to play the role of mediator and work nicely to help get some restitution back for people. In fact Mastro and Allen went to jail and never even had to pay a penny back! I’m kind of thinking there has to be more to this but what do I know?

Originally Posted by drcy (Post 1908606)

I firmly believe that, in the future and perhaps near future, all cards from now and retroactively will be able to be identified-- and the hobby and collectors will be able to deal with that.

The idea that altered cards will remain undetected (except for those who don't want them examined) is false.

Though, duly note that there have been instances where cards have been restored, represented and graded as such. With the means to identify all altered cards, this may be a wave of the future.

Originally Posted by benjulmag (Post 1908641)

I strongly agree with this. If/when this happens, whatever upheavals the hobby has endured to date IMO will pale in comparison to the upheaval lurking when it is shown that the great majority of high grade vintage cards have been altered.

IMO those of us who traveled the show circuit in the 60's, 70's and early '80's know this to be the case, as well as those who possess the simple common sense to know that cards over a century old distributed in tobacco and candy packages and handled could not possibly have survived in nrmt-mt or better condition in anything close to the numbers that exist today.

What I will be curious to see is the legal consequence to PSA when a lot of registry people discover that the value of their holdings have been significantly reduced. I would not be surprised to see significant civil litigation against PSA predicated on their business model being an absurdity - the notion that a visual examination lasting a very short time conducted in many instances by inexperienced graders can possibly detect sophisticated card doctoring. Assuming the representations PSA were making as to the capabilities of the services it was selling are not found to have been fraudulently made, we might see a test legal case of when stupidity has reached such a level that as a matter of law it is deemed to be impossible not to have been fraudulently made.

Originally Posted by Leon (Post 1908628)

I don't know about that. If I were a betting person I would say restitution might come into play in the final punishment (if there is any). But then again, what do I know? I am just a layperson running a chatboard.

Originally Posted by drcy (Post 1908637)

I know I'm right. How TPAs or whomever uses the technology and methods is neither here nor there to me. There's also no reason it has to be a commercial endevor-- no need to define this issue in terms of commerce, companies and market share. It's like saying "Which company is going to own carbon dating?" No one owns carbon dating. It's a scientific method written about in textbooks, taught in physics classes and used all over the world.

Also, many authentication tools and methods are inexpensive and many people, and collectors, them. Anyone who examines their card with a $6 black light or $10 handheld microscope can attest to this. There will be scientific tools, some expensive and some not, but it's mostly about knowledge.

Also, people have to differenciate between grading and identifying altereations. Grading and grading critereon are subjective and no AI or compupter program can 'solve' that. Identying altereations on the other hand is scientific, and technology can be applied there.

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 1908649)

And yet huge numbers of sophisticated collectors believed and believe it. How stupid and implausible could it really have been if that was and is the case?

Originally Posted by benjulmag (Post 1908660)

IMO most people buy the slab, not the card.

Originally Posted by benjulmag (Post 1908660)

IMO most people buy the slab, not the card. So we do not know what they believed. And I suspect many of those who did take the time to think about it probably assumed PSA applied methods a bit more sophisticated and time consuming then in fact they did. Then there are those overtaken by suspended disbelief -- they wanted what they were told to be true so they bought into it.

I also question how sophisticated many of these people are.

Whatever the case, when many people find they have lost large sums of money they are going to be looking for someone to blame. And I think PSA will be held to a higher standard of expertise than the customers they are selling to.

When I spoke to the FBI at the National they seemed well aware as to the limitations of the PSA business model, and I'll be curious to see if one of the results of this situation is that PSA will add some qualifying language as to the limitations of what they can detect.

EDITED to add that I am not saying litigation against PSA will be successful. And as has been noted before, people who buy the slab and not the card to some degree have made their own bed. But I would not be surprised if it gets messy and there is litigation.