They might need to buy new bandwidth to publish such a list. It would be, IMO, stunningly long. But I agree, the current posture is wholly inadequate.

This is another thing I've emailed them a few days ago. Maybe I missed my calling as a lawyer.

Who is better, the economist who predicted two of the last four recessions or the economist who predicted six of the last four recessions?

I am guessing Sloan did not respond to any of your emails or you would have posted the responses.

The latter. More accuracy.

I think that's right. 2/3 as opposed to 1/2

He and Betsy (copied both of them each time) stopped responding on May 7th. But no, I wasn't planning on posting them even if they did. Don't mind posting ones I sent them.

Gods do not answer letters I guess.

agreed. I guess we're not all that different after all?:D That we have a very low threshold for complete scammers in the hobby we all love(d). I've loved it on and off my entire life and this PWCC scam is neither fun nor funny, IMHO. Thanks Brent Mastro!, Thanks PSA!

I do try to stand up for I feel is right and fight authority whenever I can. PWCC has been on my s*** list but now you can add PSA to the list of companies I'm hating on right now after that very weak response. Just pathetic. My fake crap is going into the attic immediately right next to my fake autographed photos and fake baseballs. I'm done. What I have I have and not 1 more PERIOD!

I am done talking about it which will make many of you very joyous:( (especially Leon)

The last thing I do for the hobby and my fellow collectors will be to get the
F Face cards made for the National.

Just my personal opinion, but like I have said numerous times, I think SGC does a far better job at grading than PSA does?

I'd also go out on a limb and say, with regards to the T206 sig scandal, that it was likely one guy who authenticated the majority of those, and I would assume he is no longer employed?

Well
 

Nothing to help people forget about a scandal like a BIGGER scandal!!



Perhaps it was a typo - combating-committing:eek:?

This guy made a nice post over at the PSA message board. Looks like some of their guys are reading this board, and think we're being too harsh.

Those guys should read more threads and see how involved PSA is in this scandal.

The other thing I'm not thrilled with is that this is posted on only one of their message boards, and you have to click and scroll around on the site to even find it. Despite how weak it is, it needs to be plastered on the FRONT PAGE of their website in that center slot, so that everyone who visits the site can read it.

DING DING DING we have a winner. Of course the doctors are going through PSA and to a lesser degree Beckett (for modern). That's where top dollar is. SGC's position saved them in this case.

But would they have caved into the corruption of passing obviously corrupted cards along to their registry people?

Or maybe old-style PSA flips will become more in vogue, since those were submitted over 10 years ago before this was going on?

Is there a joke in there or a reference that I'm not getting? 6 of the last 4 recessions? Did you mean 4 of the last 6 recessions?

He means the economist predicted 6 but there were only 4.

Through all this the PWCC banner ad remains up.

Unconvincing Attempt at Damage Control
 

The scariest thing about the PSA statement is how much effort they put into trying to convince us that the virus is contained and will be eradicated — without any explanation as to what the cure is — by suggesting that it’s an “isolated act” and not an absolute plague on the hobby. Even Exxon had better statements after the Valdez oil spill.

Congratulations for rejecting “thousands of altered and counterfeit cards . . . each year.” If you reject thousands of altered cards and you encapsulate thousands of altered cards you’re doing about as well as a coin flip.

What exactly is “[y]our on-going investments in grading and holder technology”?
The “lighthouse logo” now acts more like a traditional lighthouse, alerting oncoming collectors to rocky shores beneath the glow. Never mind that if you lock a trimmed card in Fort Knox, all you’ve managed to do is protect a trimmed card. The seatbelt is somewhat less helpful after the crash.

“[I]solated acts from a few dishonest actors”? The bubonic plague requires humans to be isolated so that the disease doesn’t spread. These acts were the opposite — the were intentionally socialized, designed to spread altered cards into all of our collections. You can isolate as many actors as you want today, but the damage already done has extremely far-reaching, and invasive effects. These cards are in all of our collections, and they stain the good ones with an unwashable air of doubt and uncertainty.

“Rest assured that PSA will not let the actions of a few have any lingering impact on the hobby or the PSA brand.” You’ll forgive me if I’m not feeling all that reassured by this statement. How are you going to clean up the spill?

Who says it wasn't?

And during the period of the last four recessions they were each wrong twice.

I also think, because SGC grades tougher, that people use PSA knowing they are likely to get a higher grade.

I also remember reading of at least one guy on here who is/was purchasing SGC graded cards, busting them out, sending them to PSA and receiving higher grades.

I am unsure how much money he is making, that is his business, but I know he wouldn't continue to do it if it wasn't at least a bit lucrative.

Interesting point brought up. Will this be a loophole for PSA’s guarantee?

Ah, gotcha. Never heard that before.

They're not the ones who trimmed it? What kind of excuse is that? They could use that excuse for all wrong doing. "We weren't the ones who re-colored it." "We weren't the ones who rebuilt the corners" "We weren't the ones that chemically cleaned it." How lame! Then what does their guarantee cover?

I am sure the guarantee does not require the owner to exhaust other remedies first. It's an odd statement by Sloan in that regard.

It wouldn't surprise me if PSA is just warming up with defenses they will use to try to avoid having to make good on the guarantee. Mounting publicity about the scandal along with new revelations about altered cards seem to be daily occurrences. Guarantee claims likely will continue to mount. Figuring out how to deal with them may turn into an existential issue for PSA.

I'm actually amused by that. I sincerely hope it is generating some revenue for Leon, helping this website remain up and financially viable, so the misdeeds of PWCC can be freely discussed and communicated with all - site members as well as other folks just dropping in to see what's going on. I hope Leon leaves it up there.

In fact, I'd like to see PWCC buy some ad space over at blowout, too. That's another site that should be supported by advertisers. :)

Interesting take on it, personally I find it troublesome that the site continues to affiliate with such a person. Ii believe other sites have taken down his ads. I guess I don't have your appreciation for irony, although I get it.

Neither PSA nor PWCC will voluntarily do anything to hurt their bottom line or that looks like an admission of guilt.

The only way that happens is by direction from a court of law.

PWCC is paying this site to expose their own wrongdoings. What is wrong with letting them do so?

Nobody is going to come here, see what's going on, and then say, "Oh, never mind all those discussions about altered cards, I think I'll do business with PWCC because they have that cute ad...

For me it's more the principle of the thing,

Wait, what? There are principles involved? Who? Where? What are they?

My position is equally principled. You see my point and I see yours, and we will have to agree to disagree.

As an aside, Gary changed his ebay ID and was instantly outed.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...&postcount=553

Exactly. I think that by allowing an entity to purchase and maintain a banner ad the board is implicitly endorsing their business practices.

It looks to me like PSA is now the puppet master and Brent is the puppet. PSA’s submission records, when combined with Pwcc’s records and eBay records would probably be sufficient to cause Brent a lot of problems. If he doesn’t play ball then he is toast.

PSA’s statement looks like it was carefully designed to make Brent clean up the mess for any card that came through their operation that can be demonstrated to be “conserved”. For the rest that cannot be proven the review guarantee may be used, but I’d bet that very few of any such reviews will result in cards being deemed “conserved”.

The same thing happened a few years ago with the “late model” vintage cellos that made it into slabs. Only the ones that could be proven to be illegitimate were dinged. The rest are still circulating the hobby and unless you have the submission flip number ranges you would never know they were phonies.

This should be our response letter back to Sloan...

Dear PSA:

Isn't your entire business model predicated upon identifying and rejecting material from "dishonest actors"?

Isn't the sole reason you exist to protect collectors from these "few dishonest actors"?

Without the "dishonest actors", you wouldn't even have a business to run.

So why don't you stop playing "the victim", and admit to your long list of failures. Address the damned issue head-on!

Peter,

Thank you for the subtle and understated images. I was thinking about the T206 Wagner when I saw your images and it all just drove home the point.

Statement from ceo of public company
 

Shouldn’t this type of statement be released by the ceo through an official pr?

If this guy was burned in the WIWAG scandal, which I had to look up because I've only been back into cards/grading for five years, it makes some sense.

WIWAG was accused of busting the holders, swapping out cards with lower grade ones, and resealing. So PSA according to the terms of their current Grade Guarantee would not be liable because the holders have been cracked. Not sure if that was the same-worded guarantee from 15 years ago or not, or if they added that the holders had to be undamaged.

Should PSA really be on the hook for the Mexico guy and the craigslist guys who are cracking/resealing cases? Shouldn't the customer inspect the case to make sure it hasn't been tampered with? I understand it.

Thread is still up, but got locked after a few posts. Explanation from the moderator:
Hmmm. Comparing rightfully angry collectors who are being fed a line of manure to rowdy parents at a kid's sports match... not how I would have done it.

Still no public statement from Beckett. They have it even more widespread than PSA does.

They do have this nice article on their website. Maybe PSA should read it?
https://www.beckett.com/news/how-to-...en-re-colored/

But then they also have this: "The Reputation of the Beckett Name- BGS operates with the same honesty, integrity and excellent hobby knowledge you have come to expect from Beckett. Reliability and consistency are the hallmarks of Beckett Grading Services." (No mention of accuracy? Edit: I see it in their service time guarantee below)

And their guarantee is quite a bit different:
So maybe they don't need to make a statement because all the trimming that got by them for years by more "bad actors" than PSA had exposed aren't covered under any warranty or liability. Unless they also happened to be mechanical errors for stuff like "wrong set."

It's up to the Beckett collectors/buyers to stop paying ridiculous multiples of raw card values for BGS 10s and 10 Black Labels. Let's see if the modern guys really care.

People wondering all these years why PSA charges so much and Beckett charges so little to grade $100,000 and up cards can read those guarantees and see what the extra money should be going towards.

I think it's time to find a new hobby. Maybe knitting, or butterfly watching, can fill the void.

Well, hey, if PSA is doing on-site grading at the Long Beach Expo starting tomorrow, those of you that have altered cards from PWCC/Moser can form a return/refund line.
https://www.psacard.com/Resources/Sh...=lbe_june_2019

When there's a run on the bank, you want to be first in line, right?

On the BGS side, a class-action lawsuit may be the only recourse collectors owning slabbed cards has, unless they get their cards returned to the seller within the window.

I don't disagree that PSA should not be on the hook for an altered card inserted in a cracked/resealed case. PSA's statement however, as I read it, doesn't refer to that situation when it says to first go back to the seller. I wonder if they are raising the privity argument, or at least trying to keep that defense viable should the matter become the subject of litigation.

As has been discussed in previous threads, their warranty would seem to be of the type to run with the card, and therefore not to require the person invoking it to be the person who originally submitted it for grading. I would not be surprised if PSA does try to raise the privity issue if they perceive guarantee claims to be an existential issue. And probably too we can count on statute of limitation defenses to be thrown in as well.

Bird watching is fascinating.

This debate again? Sgc did NOT take centering into account when they began grading cards. Submitted if oc or mc PSA cards could have an accurate grade when submitting to sgc. Since the new regime took over, they have taken it into account , and therefore wont honor the old grades. Nobody seems up in arms about this, maybe PSA should just sell the co and not honor any old grades.

If sgc is tougher, wouldn't people be more willing to buy them, cross to PSA, then sell them? Why would PWCC and co only buy PSA cards and try to restore them, Instead of sgc cards which were "already graded stricter"

This is not the case, maybe they have graded less altered cards, but certainly not tougher on the whole!

Sorry for the rant, but a few people (not you Irv) must literally have no job, or have a slow week at the office. I cant read any threads here or blow without seeing 5 posts every hour by the same people.

That's because, unlike SGC collectors, PSA collectors need someone to tell them their card is OC or MC. They're rely on the flip to tell them that because they can't think for themselves. SGC collectors don't need that. They can look for themselves and judge the centering of the card.

Slow week.

Slow and weak

This posted on CLCT website 15 years ago...How many alterations have been done, and, sold, since then?
https://forums.collectors.com/discus...1955-aa-orouke

That's exactly the point! Thank you for finding this. The notion that this was an "isolated" issue is insulting. Moser's cards are everywhere by now, and we all have them in our collections. PSA can't put the genie back in the bottle. Time for a better mousetrap.

+1

It definitely bothers me that our threads drive traffic to the PWCC website, and they have for some time.

For the moment it is staying up. This board, nor I, endorse fraud. No one is forcing anyone to post or be here. Last I checked you can leave if you don't like it. This is a very fluid situation and their banner might come down, might not. I will make that decision when the time is right. Today, tomorrow or never.

I am bothered by a lot of things, like you not having your name next to your posts when you know darn well know it should be. Just like Jay Miller (Old Judge) who commented above, his name needs to be out here too. I have had discussions about these same violations with both of you more than once. Thanks

I agree, and was shocked when I heard a PSA 7mc, would now be an sgc 30!

So why did they change their standards, and wont honor the old grades? Just because someone bought them out, and they dont want the old baggage?

The other issue as I see it is that without some proactive identification of WHICH cards are suspect, most collectors will have no idea. Sure a small percentage will be outed on message boards but what about all the rest?

Well, probably many thousands by now....

Love the quote by shouldabeen10:
And if someone can testify that Joe Orlando said it's better let them keep submitting than play whack-a-mole with "bad actors," there is probably some additional liability in that comment.

Based on what has happened in the past with similar situations, e.g. the bogus cellos that were slabbed a few years back, I think it likely that THIS is exactly what their strategy is.

For any non-outed item that might get submitted for a guarantee review I think they are well aware that as long as they do legitimate reviews and act on a card-by-card basis if they find problems then they will not risk becoming party to perpetuating a fraud.

What they are probably counting on is that most people with non-outed items will probably not realize it or will not go to the trouble of requesting guarantee reviews.

That article is for subscribers only. $2 for 2 weeks! That's more than any newspaper I've seen.
Nope, not doing that.

Here that statement is as I read it

Hey, we got caught. And that's a problem. But it's happened before, and we have a solution!
Send any of the outed cards back to the sellers, so they can crack and resubmit. That way the cards get new holders with a nice new serial number and this whole problem can go away.

Try our new "we're really good at spotting fraud mango" flavor kool aid coming out right now!

I am also guessing anyone without clear before and after evidence is facing an uphill battle on a review.

Me too.... but it's Leon's site and Leon is being Leon. He stood up for Mastro until he went to jail as well. He is a good friend until the end. That's admirable despite ALL the evidence. He can have Jack the Ripper's ad's up for all I care. I don't even see it.

I agree that Leon can do what ever he wants on his site, not that I have a say as it is Leon's site.

LOL, I'm going to start collecting Birds...

Not sure that PSA has anything to gain by creating such a hurdle. They have a better option available. I think they could just give guarantee reviews the lowest priority such that they take a long time. With normal services already running 3 months and longer it would discourage such submissions.

I think their focus is to protect themselves in such a way that also maximizes the value of the items they have authenticated that are already out in the market. They know that as long as the vast majority of owners of their authenticated items don’t get hurt then they will be ok.

I doubt you will ever see any of PSA’s submission records voluntarily provided to produce a list of potentially affected items. You won’t see them acknowledge any shortfalling on their part either. They are playing this one just like the previous ones.

My understanding is that over the years many people have been dissatisfied with the outcome of their requests for guarantee reviews.

There are going to be lawsuits. Lawsuits that will request lists of all cards submitted on behalf of certain people and entities. PSA will fight tooth and nail not to turn over those lists. Depending on Brent’s circumstances he may choose to voluntarily or will be forced to in lawsuits. Eventually the courts will decide whether they will be released and who needs to release them. According to lawyers I have spoken with it is very likely the lists will come out.

I 100% agree that if this became a legal issue for PSA they wound most definitely fight not to turn over anything.

What I am not sure of is how PSA could end up as a party to a lawsuit on something like this. They have been able to avoid that several times before when bogus items were discovered to be in their slabs, most recently a few years ago when Jose managed to get a few hundred homemade vintage cellos with stars showing successfully graded.

Based on what has been exposed I can understand how one might go after PWCC and/or some of the larger card doctors legally. What makes it different for PSA this time? And if PSA can be attached to this then what about eBay? They haven’t shut off or temporarily suspended PWCC yet despite what has been reported. Shouldn’t they also be responsible for making sure that their platform is not being used to commit crimes?

I hope so, the efforts on BO to out cards have been noble but at best they can scratch the recent surface. I am a bit skeptical about the prospects of obtaining this relief from the courts but it would be a game-changer.

Failure to act in good faith with respect to the guarantee is one legal possibility that comes to mind, assuming the facts are there. I would not be surprised at all if many people come forward in this regard. I can think of others as well but don't want to shoot from the hip just yet.

The Jack Nicholson line, You can't handle the truth, comes to mind in reflecting whether people REALLY want to know.

PSA is getting paid to grade cards and is failing miserably to catch these issues. They have a guarantee that needs to be upheld. eBay is just the facilitator of the transactions and I suspect that if anyone accused would have their auctions shut down there would be a lot less for sale there. In time I imagine they will deal with PWCC depending on where this goes.

I continue to be puzzed by Sloan's (probably from JO really) statement that only if the seller is unknown should someone send in cards for review.

One, it seems inconsistent with the plain terms of the guarantee.
Two, how often is the seller "unknown"?

Brent Mastro says "He is working with PSA" when PSA should be suing the S*** out of him and d-listing the schmuck. AND e-bay sells 1000's of dollars in forgeries and fakes everyday 365 days a year. Do you think they care? Think again.:p NEW FLASH: They don't and they will protect their little Brenty just like PSA is.

Meanwhile, by changing his ID, Gary appears to be showing his intent to keep right on keeping on.

Failing miserably? On what evidence is that opinion based?

Some message board detectives seem to have shown evidence that possibly as many as 1000 cards have made it into PSA holders illegitimately. They’ve authenticated more than 30M items. THREE THOUSANDTHS OF ONE PERCENT is better than 99.99% right based on the evidence available so far.

While i too believe there is more to be uncovered I think it is premature, and potentially libelous, to make such a general sweeping statement before there is evidence to support it.

Let’s not get in front of our headlights.

IMO most will never be uncovered by these methods. This is just focused on one seller and one individual dealer for a few years. Because there is a paper (internet) trail given the nature of the relationship. Do you think he is the only individual good at altering cards? Do you think PWCC is the only seller who has sold altered cards? Do you think this is a recent phenomenon?

I would kill to see their submission records.