Why then do you seemingly not hold PWCC responsible in any way. Every post you have made has defended them either directly or indirectly and then proceed to deflect all responsibility to the TPG industry? You understand that they can both suck at their jobs simultaneously, right?

I understand the sentiment behind your posts but they seem to be obviously thinly veiled defenses of PWCC.

It's not just you anyhow. There's no more further need to debate or discuss that that line of reasoning makes no sense. I think everyone here knows it makes no sense. Of course, it makes no sense. Or as I say when someone states a fact that is so obvious to everyone a fact that there's no need for the person to have even stated it: "And the sky is blue and Austin is the capital of Texas."

Now, the argument that the baseball card hobby should "mature" concerning conservation/alteration/labeling, that is a fair argument to which I can agree. Restoration (disclosed and labeled as restoration, and receiving a grade of AUTH) actually has become more accepted in the hobby in recent years. Collecting-wise, I'm not interested in restored or altered cards, but there are others in the hobby who are okay with it (when it's disclosed and the price is right), and the major auction houses has auctioned (disclosed as) restored cards. In cases, restoring and conserving a card is prudent. Obviously, the hobby 'maturing' would have to start, and only can start, with grading companies being able to identify alterations and conservation, which may be a high starting hurdle, because, despite what Goudey says, people WILL still try to sneak alterations past graders.

Here's a hobby 'maturing' rule for consideration: All trading cards that have been restored or conserved have to be clearly and permanently marked on the card itself. It may be a visible-light mark, or, if people don't like that idea, a black light identifiable mark. Any restored or conserved card that does not have such mark is automatically considered breaking the hobby rules and ethical standards written in black and white.

30 plus years ago, there was a guy who restored old cards, usually Goudeys, by building up the corners with foreign paper and glue. And apparently, he did an excellent job.

It seems to me if anything, legitimizing "restored" would increase the incentive to doctor, because the worst case becomes something that has a decent residual value instead of a rejected and tainted card.

Peter,

I get what you are saying. I won't argue that price gap. But this comes down to better analysis of cards and identifying restorations. Also defining tolerances so we can clearly address before and after photos popping up on message boards claiming fraud. TPG's simply need to take a stance. PWCC tenets did this.

CGC took a stance and it became a big part of their everyday operations. Who here questions card TPG's ability to do the same.

Ask a comic book veteran if they think a comic restoration expert can slip a book past CGC graders into the un-restored blue label.

Ask a sports card hobby veteran the same question about PSA or SGC.

You didn't notice "Pacific Northwest" in his personal details?


It a slow day here on Oswego Lake....

Unless I am missing something most of this information has pretty recently come to light so I think we are jumping the gun concluding that we are “doing nothing” because only time will tell if nothing is done. IMO bringing up all this information is the opposite of “doing nothing” and the only one that seems to have a problem with all these revelations is PWCC and (inexplicably) you. You seem to want to redirect the narrative to a similar point but not really what we are all talking about right now. This conversation is a good one but probably not one that should be initiated by the biggest PWCC apologist in the known universe.

I think PSA's current standards reflect, with some gray area perhaps around the edges, the collective hobby ethos of what is and is not acceptable. I see no need for any change to that. I don't think PWCC's proposals to change standards, leaving aside my personal sense of their disingenuousness, are helpful. The key is to improve detection and discourage card doctors and their enablers. Anyhow, I keep saying this so I'll stop.

LOL, I certainly noticed that the first time I saw his post, I just want him to be honest.

That's Lake Oswego Ted. You get the purple label for that one. :D

Glad you finally agree to what i've been saying Peter.

I've said this till I'm blue in the face all along, I have no idea what you're talking about but whatever.

Duly note that I live in and am posting from the Pacific Northwest :)

If we are fully disclosing, I was in Lake Oswego a month ago and a month and a half ago. Did not see anyone associated with PWCC as far as I know.:) Didn't see the Gangster from West Linn either.:(

I think there are cases where restoration have been reasonable (a torn card where the tear will be getting worse with time, a card where half is missing or has major damage to the central graphics), but have always been of the sentiment that restored cards should the rare exceptions. I believe it should be the norm, as it is, that alterations are considered detrimental to the card, lowers the value and the hobby should be against it.

Your point, and what I just said, may go against the idea of graders being able to label conservation/restoration, but just label all alterations as altered AUTH. If they get into the conservation/restoration etc labels, then it may make the practices seem more legitimate and acceptable, when restoration should be the rare exception for specific reasons. You may have just convinced me that graders should simply label altered cards as altered AUTH. If an AUTH card was restored for good reason, the owner of the card can make his case-- but the card doesn't get a special label.

Graders are actually by name condition graders, and they should say "We condition grade (assign numbers) only cards that are unaltered, and the cards have been altered. You people can debate the merits of restoration and conservation or what types of alterations are okay-- fine and dandy--, but we are strictly in the technical business of authenticating identity, condition grading unaltered cards and identifying cards that have been altered."

Martin - They already do, why do you keep saying this? PSA has multiple different options, including "restored" which they can use.

EDIT: Added pictures of before and after, courtesy of t206resource.com
https://i.imgur.com/nYW9OtFl.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/HQEoQEdl.jpg

They also have published standards for grading, see this link.
https://www.psacard.com/Resources/gr...tandards#cards

They probably haven't really dealt with the definitions as well as they could, however:
N2 - Evidence of restoration - When a card's paper stock appears to have been built up - for example, when ripped corners are built up to look like new corners.
N5 - Altered Stock - This includes, but is not limited to characteristics on the card that appear to show some form of alteration such as paper restoration, crease/wrinkle pressing or enhanced gloss.
N7 - Evidence of Cleaning - When a whitener is used to whiten borders or a solution is used to remove wax, candy, gum or tobacco stains.
AA - Authentic Altered - This means that while PSA is certifying that the item is genuine, due to the existence of alterations, the item cannot receive a numerical grade. The term altered may mean that the card shows evidence of one or more of the following: trimming, recoloring, restoration, and/or cleaning. Items receiving the "Authentic Altered" designation, in our opinion, are genuine with the presence of some type of alteration. This is done on a case-by-case basis only, and must be notated on the submission form at the time of submission.

As I've continued to state, just be consistent and use them.

For whatever reason, that Wagner got I believe the N2 - Restored. Why it's not AA - Authentic Altered I have no idea, considering it had recoloring, restoration and cleaning done to it. Are we to accept that because the card wasn't submitted on the form to be AA that's why I ended up in a N2? Or is it because "restored" just sounds better than "altered", especially when you're talking about a multi-hundred thousand $ card?

The 52 Mantle that's been discussed has clear evidence of at least being cleaned. There's speculation of other work to it as well, including trimming and recoloring, but I don't know that I have seen sufficient evidence to say exactly what that is - but the circumstantial evidence of something else besides cleaning being done to it is pretty compelling. Regardless, it got a 4.5 grade instead of say N7. Brent has brought up that he's never seen N7 used, I don't think I have either so seems he has a valid point on that. However, in hindsight, something was done to that card, it was cracked and resubbed, whether or not you can actually SEE evidence of something done to it in hand the pictures prove something was done. PSA should reslab this thing at a minimum, and Brent needs to stop pretending the pictures don't exist.


And finally, regarding making "examples"...I certainly don't FEEL like you made an example of me or any of my posts. As a matter of fact, I think you've added credence to much of what myself and others have pointed out, so thank you for that.

You and I do agree on a few things (like what the TPGs can and should do), on quite a number of others we don't. I think I've been pretty open and direct in expressing the basis upon which my disagreement is based. If you feel like that's not "constructive", so be it - I feel pretty good you're in the minority in that view.

Maybe I'm just not "mature" enough...fortunately I have the card hobby to fall back into. :)

I would love a card restored like that! As long as it's disclosed from the beginning and not an attempt to fraud, which is what Brent Mastro is doing now.

All this talk about hobby practices maturing to be more like comics and the insuation that being more accepting of alterations will also make it easy to properly identify them is great, but I think this is all pointless if there is not also a market at large who would not only be accepting of this, but demanding of it - and at least right now I don't think that is the case. Grading companies were started ostensibly because of alteration problems and things going undetected in the 1990's right? The difference is that they were just supposed to reject such cards and not attempt to understand what had been done to them. The result, rather quickly was TPG's establishing incentives for cards that not only were not altered, but were in super-high grade. By going down this road so quickly, they made truly altered cards ultra-black sheep, and quickly - it would seem at least thoretically - lost any true incentive not to try to cut corners so they would be able to avoid giving out these designations. Because obviously continually doing so, even if it was the right thing to do - is going to be bad for your business as a TPG.

So what are we saying, the goal is the same as it was earlier to prevent / crack down on alterations - but um, it didn't work the first time, so now we need to go back and embrace a certain degree of permissable alterations so we can get better about calling things out? Again, ok - but I don't think outside of concerned true collectors on forums like this one - we likely aren't anywhere near a majority - that anyone will give much of a damn. It's not going to be a market reality. As we've said before, the vast majority of the deep-pocketed investing and even high-end collecting world is going to continue along an ends-justify-the-means trail and be happy with their ridiculously high-graded vintage cards in slabs whether or not they were trimmed or restored or what have you.

So at the end of the day until we see a dramatic shift in the overall marketplace, I think that TPG's are useful tools, only - upon which not nearly so much weight should be assigned. It's an opinion of an examination, nothing more. Notice that while we lobby for change, be it with the TPG's or an entity like PWCC - we all still seem to approach the matter of slabbing as a "finality." Not just something that happened to the card in it's lifespan and was then moved-on from. No buddy, this card is now a PSA 8 for life! Hehe. You've got to admit we do that here, too. If we could somehow get around that in the honest discussion of what types of weight to assign to what issues, I think the hobby would be a lot better off.

Good post jhcollins!

Seems these challenging ideas/questions on threads are mostly click bait for the naysayers.

So I Appreciate your articulated thoughts on the subject.

Agree. Obviously the same with TPA autograph opinions. They're independent opinions.

My point is that TPG’s like PSA as you pointed out could use some changes to the way they define, address and label these various scenarios.
While I appreciate a good old “restored” T206 Wagner slab, it’s archaic in comparison to what CGC has done so far.

I don’t want to repeat myself I just want to make it a point that we could learn from other sectors of collectibles.

Watch the CGC interview you’d be amazed at their openness and knowledge on the matter. Card TPG’s are very tight lipped and seem to take every incident case by case. There is no clear line in the sand. Thus a need for a stance and tenets of sort like PWCC has done. Crap on the idea all you want but someone needs to be a voice if TPG’s won’t speak up.

I’ll post it again. Very informative CGC interview exposing the possibilities of defining conservation and restoration.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0H5j0mQYpy8

Fairly new here, constantly praising PWCC? Nah, your not a plug for Brent at all.
I'm not really sure what makes others think you are? :rolleyes:

See it's posts like this that make one question your motives. You view PWCC as some sort of savior. Many of us view them as a company that's trying to spin their less than ethical actions of the past. Does that mean we find the TPG's blameless, of course not, but to basically say that PWCC is the solution to the TPG problem is...

...not sure I have the words.

Thank you. By the way I appreciate your insight on the comic hobby. I have always found grading of any type "interesting"; it's almost like a sub-hobby of mine. Instead of going after only cards in high grade - as is affordable I like to get examples of cards in all grades above poor and fair - in a better attempt to understand granding norms and trends. Even if some of the standards applied to comic books don't really translate to cards, it's great stuff to read about.

always appreciate your viewpoint JC

Does everyone on here have an agenda or motive? I certainly do not.
I have opinions on specific topics that may align with what PWCC is trying to convey in their communication. If your opinions differ then cool. We should still be able to get along without questioning motives. It is what it is.

Public shaming, defamatory remarks and accusations on a message board is not cool. If you want to be vocal about something take it offline and talk it through with whomever you have a problem with. You might even have a new perspective after the conversation.

Man up and defend your position. Not hide behind a message board moniker.

If anyone wants to reach out and speak to me on subjects i'd be happy to talk. I'm an open book and have no agenda other than talk hobby, meet new people who share the same interest.

If any of you are on Instagram you can look me up @Goudey77 which I use strictly for hobby related networking. DM me or call me. I'd like to chat it up with those who are most passionate about subjects like this.

My response is not directed toward Aquarian Sports. Just a general response to the question about my motive. Which many of you have pointed out.

I don't questions your motives, I just question what the HELL you could be thinking in regards to standing up for a well known and now documented fraud artist? So deep in bed with several guys that spin doctored cards through him back and forth, flip, cut, flip Conserve, cut flip REPEAT until the cards look like Mini's.

We don't agree that'e true. You should really try one small thing...OPEN YOUR EYES...if you look hard enough maybe you can see it also.;)

So what are you doing about it Chuck?
Besides chiming in on the internet message boards? Do you get a kick out of convincing people to side with you?

Reminds me of Antifa groups. Lots of public shaming. If you arent with us you are the enemy mentality.

I sense there is a bit of that going on here on the net54 crowd. Chuck do you have a motive?

Chuck seems to be pretty firmly against fraud in the hobby.

One man's fraud is another man's evolution.

PWCC has 7,769 active listings at this moment. The reality is there are way more people like you that have had positive dealings with them and will continue to bid on their auctions.

There are plenty of corporations that have taken social stances that I don't agree with but it doesn't stop me from shopping there.

Someone doesn't have to agree with all of the decisions that Brent and crew are making to still be a customer.

Yes but that doesn't really prove much, people would bid in an ISIS auction if it was a card they needed.

I was born near Oswego, ...............New York. Do I get a sticker?

I agree.

There are so many posts about this current scandal predicting their demise and PSA's and people are just fooling themselves.

I am not in favor of everything PWCC is doing but it doesn't change the fact that they are the most powerful seller in the entire hobby at this point.

In reality it is their's to lose.

Yeah people especially on BO are a bit giddy to say the least. Shorting CLCT stock and such. I'd like to see some constructive change and especially deterrence of card doctoring and enabling, as well as improvement in grading, but I don't think it's apocalypse now.

CLCT cleared the number we discussed and is into the gap and the stock is 11% higher plus it went ex dividend since this ordeal started. The small caps or IWM are breaking down yet this is making new highs daily. The company has gained close to 20 million in market cap. The charts suggest it is going higher. Obviously time will tell but this ordeal is not going to be anywhere close to as big as what people on BO are hoping for. The backlog of cards is the highest in company history at over 700,000.

https://www.stockcharts.com/h-sc/ui?s=clct


I think everyone would like to see things clean up some but this hobby has dealt with fraudsters way before I bought my first pack of cards in 1985. Most of us just know it is out of our control and we just have to do the best we can while we swim with sharks.

An interesting situation, that would have a practical effect, is if there were enough problems with fakes that eBay banned the seller.

That's a situation where collector complaints and chatboard evidence would have material effect.

Another situation would be if, believing the seller was knowingly submitting altered cards, PSA stopped grading cards for them. That would also be a good PR stance of PSA standing up against the issue.

If either of both of those situations happened that would be a hobby-shaking sign of real powers that be taking the issue seriously and doing something of material effect.

The volume of course is part of the problem -- they're obviously putting a premium on speed over accuracy because otherwise the backlog gets even worse -= but from their perspective it may be the right tradeoff.

I am sure PSA has a list. But it's not a company that is going to talk about it.

Well, this entire conversation has evolved a bit since it first started. Martin, you've done a wonderful job of deflecting the conversation away from PWCC knowingly selling altered cards and working with card doctors and to TPGs needing to do what they have proven they can't. Let's remember that this started because Brent decided he was going to play card God and change the definition of alteration. And folks on BO showing how he sells cards that get consigned back to him after they have been altered and passed through a TPG. Why? Because TPGs suck at their job of course. We all agree to that. The problem is what PWCC is doing, not that TPGs can't tell an alteration when they see one. You're constant defense of PWCC is what a lot of us don't understand and why there are so many folks here questioning your motives. You said you don't have any motives. I call BS on that statement. If you didn't have motives you wouldn't have started this thread in the wake of the other threads already rolling. I like that you have an opinion about TPGs needing to do a better job. And I can talk to you about that without throwing out insults. I'm not trying to put you down here, just trying to explain why you're getting so much backlash. Keep up your fight against the TPGs Martin. But realize what else is going on other than how they suck and we all need to mature as a hobby. Remember what started this.

Andy Huntoon

Andy, I really appreciate your feedback. If I had a motive it is to challenge the system and deliver a message to folks. Throw out ideas and let this boards knowledge serve as a think tank of sorts.

In my mind when I do a root cause analysis it comes down to the TPG.
I think most of us can agree to that. But general census is to give them a free pass because they appear too big of an entity to care about our issues.
If we live and die by the grades then the name on those slabs should take responsibility.

That's why efforts like PWCC tenets and redefining conservation vs restoration is a conversation that needs to happen at the TPG level. I don't think anyone is above it all and be the "card god". But it takes some very significant circumstances in addition to influential people to get something to happen. That is my only reason on giving PWCC the benefit of the doubt here. Maybe they can take the lead and perhaps doing something good from it.

I brought a very specific example with CGC because they have virtually removed this problem from the comic industry. I still think the solution to most of this can be accomplished if card TPG's does something similar to CGC.

Based on all that's been exposed on Blowout, and what I know and have seen and can intuit, I'll look to a different leader, thank you.

That's the problem Peter. Who's doing something about it? Who's leading? Some guys on Blowout?

If no one reaches out and makes progress with the TPG's and PWCC's of the world then all that investigative work is wasted time.

Not if it spurs or assists law enforcement, civil suits, etc.

The phrase is "The fox guarding the henhouse."

The solution to pervasive fraud is not to redefine fraud. In my opinion.

"What kind of a topsy-turvy world do we live in, where heroes are cast as villains, brave men as cowards?"-- George Costanza from the classic Seinfeld scene

The world has gone mad today

And good's bad today,

And black's white today,

And day's night today,

Cole Porter

Touche!

I've had several folks reach out to me here and on IG supporting my views.
It might be a quiet group but they are out there.

Have a great and safe holiday weekend everyone!

Not friendster or Myspace? I must be out of the loop

Good one Ted. Glad you chimed in. Happy Friday :)

No DM sent, Happy long weekend in Lake Oswego

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

Any of them federal prosecutors or FBI agents? Guessing not.

lolz

Of course not. Everyone knows they are too busy on Snapchat

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

Say hi to Brent for us!

Nothing but posting what I know and how I feel about it. I'm also not buying anymore from PWCC, I'm also considering not buying another card PERIOD. That's what I'm doing. I don't really give a S*** if you agree with me or not. I have no motives. If I did I would be doing what you're doing. I don''t care about my lousy 100K collection. It means very little to me if I have to be honest. The truth however is golden and standing up with your pocket book is what I am all about. I have boycotted much bigger companies than this piss ant PWCC, believe me. That's my motive Martin, not to inflame you like a pack of hemorrhoids.

If Leon is still looking for someone to speak at the net54 Banquet in Chicago, perhaps Chuck could do some stand-up. I know I would be entertained!

And how did they get to be the most powerful seller in the entire hobby? If you take away all the doctored PSA 10's, Beckett 9.5's-10's and Pristines that have currently been discovered, and with more to likely to come yet, that they have sold, I would almost guarantee you they wouldn't be any larger than your average ebay seller.
These types of cards, as you should know, attract a large, broad audience and people/collectors/investors are drawn to the place(s) that sell these.

It's real simple, imo. This was the end goal of PWCC. Get to be the largest, most well known seller on Ebay by doing whatever it takes to get there and watch the money roll in.

Just like Mastro.

That's Funny
 

That's funny, Jeffrey. Thank you for making me laugh. I can't believe the passion here. Is it time to call a time out yet? Peace and love. Peace and love.

Mark, you better finish your Mastro work and make some time for PWCC!

How about Disclosure vs. Concealment as defined by a court of law? The evidence is just sickening

I know...beating a dead horse these past few days. But I think it’s good we talk amongst our community about these definitions. But can we do it constructively?

The way I see it our hobby is in a vulnerable spot, growing pains of sorts, in a phase where these restored cards are going undetected by TPG’s and being sold to the community.

I’m a longtime comic book collector as well. I see similar parallels happening here that something the comic book industry went through years ago. Now with CGC recognizing conservation and restoration it’s openly discussed with clear definitions.

If TPG’s like SGC and PSA someday decide to do what CGC did then we’ll all look back at this time as a game changer in regards to this subject.

What’s happening here is that there are now attempts to “evolve” the sports card hobby to similar collectible genres. Could this mean conservation and restoration is legitimately recognized by the TPG. Grading such cards under a different label?

I remembered seeing this video and think it would be helpful to those who want to actually invest some time into the subject of conservation and restoration in collectibles.
Guests appear to be from CGC and much more knowledgeable on the subject than anyone who has publicly spoken about this on behalf of the sports card hobby.
It’s a long interview but touched on very specific points.

For those who have been most vocal about this topic I’ll tap you on the shoulder and ask that you watch this interview.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0H5j0mQYpy8

I know the ethical question these days is about knowingly selling altered cards. But what happens if SGC or PSA follows every other collectibles industry who has clearly defined restoration? Grades under a “restored” flip..Will that satisfy the collectors here and put the subject to rest?

Besides using the argument "Since restored cards are worth less than unaltered cards, no one would try to sneak a restored past the grader," explain how that would that put the subject to rest?

Upon second thought, nevermind.

DRCY, I’ll get back to you when I’m back from vacation.
I couldn’t help myself by reposting the original point I had.

Short answer you have clear definitions and no grey area like we have now. Perhaps TPG’s will put more focus on being an expert of conservation and restoration. Per CgC graders in the video I posted they seem to have it figured out.

No grey area then we can rest knowing a TPG finally really addressed and
Acknowledged this topic in the new modern era.

I have now seen enough to personally convince me that fraud is being committed on a daily, if not hourly, basis. So I'm out. I've been out for a couple of weeks. Missed some cards high on my want list, but I didn't want them at that price and "condition," whatever that condition actually was. When enough other people decide to do the same thing, maybe it will have an impact. Until then, it won't. I get that stuff still trumps all for most.

If the feds come in, it will speed up the exodus. Until then, not so much. I get that. But, and let me stress this, PWCC is doing NOTHING GOOD for the hobby by committing what IMO is rampant fraud and then trying to justify it by "redefining" what fraud is. I'm a lawyer. I do fraud cases. I know how fraud is legally defined. That new PWCC "definition" doesn't work for me.

According to their ad, they've been "leading the trading card marketplace since 1998." One hopes that these current issues don't go back that far, or I can only imagine the number of affected cards out there. Then again, I know for a fact that the relationship that seems most concerning on the vintage side is a very long term one.

We also need to bear in mind that there are many card doctors out there, although likely they have left less of a paper trail.

I don't think the TPGs grading under a "restored" flip is the subject that is bothering so many here. The fact that PWCC is selling an absurd number of altered cards in regular slabs with number grades is the problem. And the fact that they are working with known card doctors to do so. So the TPG using a "restored" flip won't put anything to rest.

You're talking about figuring out where the line is right? You're saying folks have different tolerances for what's acceptable when it comes to changing or preserving the condition of a card. And we should be open-minded about where the line is because building a new consensus is good for the hobby. Regardless of whether that argument is being used as a smokescreen by PWCC - and I think most feel that it is - the idea probably has merit in a vacuum.

But the most inflammatory examples are those trimmed cards. Trimmed cards aren't the "restored cards..going undetected by TPGs" you're talking about, right? You acknowledge that trimmed cards have no place in our hobby, I assume? They are not restoration. They are not conservation. Trimming destroys a card. I assume you're not drawing your line anywhere near this, but I can't tell.

And if you agree with that, do you think it's a truly productive conversation to talk about what PWCC has gotten philosophically right before we know what they got wrong? The amount of known, blatantly trimmed cards they've sold is staggering. The amount of entanglements they have with named perpetrators is staggering. We don't even reach the fuzzy line you're talking about, where conservation verges into restoration/alteration.

If you're talking about transparency and dialogue, don't you think the onus is on them first to lift the veil on the entirety of the problem before we trust them to tell everyone how it should be cleaned up? You would trust an organization that didn't "get something to happen" on this front until their very survival was threatened by an external whistleblower to lead the way to a better system?

Finally, why do you care about putting this subject to rest? The reckoning hasn't yet even happened. PWCC has said this rolling crisis is nowhere near closure, so I'm wondering why you seem to be pushing for it.

I have no problem with a restored card, but there's a gray line that goes with such a card. Normally this is done to a card that is exceedingly rare and expensive. These cards should always have a flip saying so by the graders, otherwise, it can lead to potential fraud.

Consumers have the right to know if this is done and act accordingly to that information, and as a side, Auction Houses and grading companies go through way too many cards not to know what to look for when inspecting a card so they can no longer pull the old dummy routine when confronted.

What I got out of the PWCC interview a lawyer would have an easy time breaking down piece by piece. Honestly, I was annoyed because for one thing, there are a lot of really smart people who do understand the distinctions between restoration and doctoring and there are clear set of standards already set in place so there isnt going to be any reinventing the wheel by PWCC.

The other thing is why is this guy telling the Hobby that it needs to grow up and mature? While I agree that the more knowledge you have the better off you'll be, but this is up to the individual whether or not he or she have the time and resources to do so.

What it sounds like is that this guy Brent is telling us that "we're a business, and therefore don't have the time or resources necessary to make sure what we're selling is on the level. Just because you're a business dosent mean that you throw your ethics out the window. When you get busted, own up to it and make the necessary precautions to make sure you dont do it again and learn from your mistakes. Finally, "before and after photos" are proof and can be submitted as evidence in a court, same with emails and recordings such as the one of PWCC attempting to explain why altered cards wont be mentioned as such prior to auction.

None of the PWCC examples I have seen are examples of restoration or conservation. They are examples of cards being altered to scam collectors out of their money. Well, more than half of the cards have been trimmed.

Thanks for your thoughtful response. I will humbly say that I have no opinion on what tolerances should be acceptable. I'm not going to be the card gatekeeper when it comes to conservation/restoration topics. I'm just a consumer like 99% of us are.

I leave this matter to the TPG's. I've seen the other threads kind of evolve over the last few days and it's refreshing to see people seeing the light that this at it's core is a problem with our TPG system and reliability.

I've said it numerous times. TPG's need to step it up and update their stance on the topic. Either do what CGC does and start a service for grading restored examples and clearly define the difference. Have a stance.

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I appreciate your reply, but it’s nonsensical. You can’t have it both ways. You can’t defer to TPGs on what constitutes unacceptable alteration and then criticize them for their outdated stance. They have a stance, you just don’t agree with it.

It’s obvious that you do have an opinion about what should be tolerated. After all, you started an entire thread about it. You sketched out the contours of what you think their stance should be - PWCC’s newly articulated one, as far as I can tell.

And to take a step back, I also find it difficult to believe that you think so little of us collectors (or consumers as you put it), that we lack the agency to help set where the red line is in our own hobby. These “gatekeeper” companies exist at our pleasure, as I hope they’re all soon finding out. In fact, I thought you were calling on everyone to have an opinion and make it known so we can achieve a new, better understanding.

I find it impossible to believe that you, as a person who collects baseball cards, have absolutely no opinion on whether trimming a baseball card constitutes acceptable behavior. That seems disingenuous.

Thanks again!

DNFTT comes to mind at this point.

Thanks,:D I was thinking of coming too...I was taught by a guy named Don Rickles.

Beating a dead horse? You must have been kicked in the head by a mule as a small child. Other people are saying it too, so you may what to check into it.

See response in red text