If they steer you away from another company's auction, is it because they don't highly recommend that particular card or because they don't want you to put your money in other's auctions but want you to only spend in theirs (PWCC's)? If you are in the auction business, you should not be advising anyone in regards to what auction they should or should not bid in. Honest or not, the perception of a conflict of interest rears its ugly head in any recommendation you might make. If you steer them from your auction, as you've pointed out you are not acting in the best interest of your consignor. If you steer them toward your auction, is it because you're trying to help your (PWCC) bottom line?

Also, what if they have more than one client looking for a particular card? Do they advise them both to go after it in a particular auction knowing that the final hammer price might greatly exceed the current value, or do they tell one client to hold off? If they tell one client to hold off, how do they decide which one?

If they have more than one client looking for a card, what if they can get all of them to not bid in other's auctions, but to wait until they (PWCC) have one in their auction? Just imagine what the final price could be. That would be great for their consignor, wouldn't it? Maybe they are looking out for their consignors after all? :rolleyes:

I think the whole concept is terrible.

A pre-war baseball card :
 

http://imagehost.vendio.com/a/204295...9BERGS_NEW.JPG

..interesting thread , but every once in a while y'all need to look at a pre-war baseball card.

..

Leon if there is full disclosure it is probably fine in some eyes and not in others.

My personal view is I don't think it is a good idea but I have never sent any cards to them to sell so I have no skin in the game.

Offering services like this though will certainly increase the chances of some form of regulation so that should definitely be considered.

I think you raise some excellent points.

The hurdle for conflict of interest is much lower I believe if there card investment advisor's that are helping you build a card "portfolio" are telling you to buy a card in say a Heritage auction or some other marketer rather than their own.

Regulation???? In the baseball card world??? We can’t even get it in big business???

I am in the securities business and if you are offering investment advice I would think you would need some form of oversight.

Do we have this type of oversight in any area of collecting whether it is fine art and antiques...comics, cards, coins? Not that im aware of?

As an auctioneer my fiduciary duty is to my seller, and my seller only. I have to be honest with my buyers, but talking a buyer out of bidding on something I am selling is a breach of my legal responsibility to the consignor.

Why bother, just keep relisting it and let them tell you "you will be outbid"

After I posted my comment I thought of the art world and I am not sure if they do or don't. I will do a google search and see if I can find anything.

Vaults are good enough for Women's Gymnastics, but not Ted's head.

I prefer less exposure and more personal care, respectively.




=

A card doesn't meet the criteria of a security when using the primary definition.

This is with the definition.

That definition is not meant to encompass everything that may be a “security” though, as the U.S. Supreme Court has made clear that the definition of “security” is “quite broad”

It doesn't meet the definition of a commodity either because there is variance in value based on certain specific characteristics to each card.

I can't find anything that suggests art dealers need a license so maybe they are in the clear.

Interesting topic for sure.

I'm fairly certain that the bigger dealers in most mainstream hobbies offer that sort of service. I don't have the right amount of money, but have met a couple major dealers in another hobby. Part of that is helping the clients build a collection or investment portfolio. The other part is having the connections to actually help with that at a high level.

It's one thing to have a customer that can afford and wants a card that might be 100K+ it's a different thing altogether to also know someone who owns one and might be convinced to part with it.

The advice to wait for a higher condition card instead of a lower grade one is basic investment advice. If I could be bothered to find specifics, I could probably find that advice being given here at least once a month. It may seem like a conflict when its an auctioneer, but the bigger auction houses also get higher bids by calling the people who want an item they just got consigned to let them know about it a bit in advance, and to recommend it to them.

Used to be a famous club in NYC called The Vault. Never had the pleasure of visiting. Good place to be hung upside down and have the crap whipped out of you by someone in a leather mask. Not my scene but probably more interesting that Brett’s vault.

The Vault
 

+1 - Well said Brady! Very innovative and a great idea with various positive angles.

Joe T.

Let's say a collector who plans to build a major high grade collection asks an auctioneer to steer him to the very best cards in the sale. If the auctioneer points out what are in his opinion the very best cards, he is doing nothing wrong. If I've consigned a bunch of VG cards to the sale, and someone else consigned well centered MT cards, I don't expect the auctioneer to recommend mine first.

I don't think recommending a group of better cards necessarily hurts other consignors. And if the auctioneer can spot a flaw that the bidder missed, it's okay to tell him to wait for a better example.

If I consigned a card to someone I wouldn't want them talking someone out of buying it.

The person is paying them a fee to try and secure the highest price for the consigned item.

This is how I feel but if others feel differently I understand that too.

So if I were to ask the auctioneer to help me secure the best cards, is he obligated to say all the cards in the sale are equal? If you were the bidder asking that question, would you find that answer satisfactory?

I agree, as an auctioneer myself for many years, that I had more of an obligation to consignors than to bidders. Consignors sign contracts, while bidders are on their own. But if someone asked me that question I would feel obligated to give an honest answer.

Honestly I don't know how to answer your question.

I have never gone to anyone for advice on what cards to buy but I suppose if I had I might feel differently and that opens up some grey area. Honesty in my view is the best policy in life so I could see someone feeling obligated to give an honest answer.

In the case of PWCC I can't begin to answer how long they have been giving buyers advice. I have always thought of them as the premier trading card auctioneer on EBAY and not an advisory service too and for all I know Brent might have been giving people advice the entire time.

None of this is of great concern to me but one day if I ever decide to sell some of my higher profile items I certainly would look into using them and I can say I wouldn't be excited if I found out that they talked someone out of bidding on my card because trading cards have very inelastic prices and just a few bidders can mean the world to the auction.

Again, as a former auction house owner I can tell you both bidders and consignors have questions, and both expect honest answers.

I'm disappointed there's not been a Seinfeld reference yet..very disappointed!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_COssGgD1aY

You should read the thread then. Post 11 and a couple of follow ups.

My faith in Net54 has been restored :)

lol

There's a Seinfeld episode for every occasion.:)

I miss your great auctions Barry. I remember when I would call you in extended time and ask you what I should bid on to win. I took your advice everytime and all turned out to be great investments. I never heard of Just So tobacco before you. Collectors are always seeking education on items they collect or want to collect. Turning to an auctioneer isnt always a bad thing even though they may be bias a little bit.

This is different though than actively discouraging a buyer from purchasing a consignment. The fact that Brent is so blase to mention it openly during an interview for Forbes Magazine is shocking.

Thanks JC. My auctions weren't large but I admit I did have interesting and historic material. I always focused on baseball history, and rarely had high grade cards. The hobby has changed a bit since then.

I recall that you had a nice Plank in 2004 or 2005. I bid, but didn't come close in the end.

That is doing your duty to the consignor. Telling someone not to bid is not.

There's a difference between being honest about a card's merits, and talking a buyer out of a card.

If a buyer asks me specifics about a card, of course I can be honest about the card's qualities.

Of course. You have to be fair to both your consignors and your bidders, who sit on opposite sides of the fence. Consignors want the highest prices possible, and bidders are looking for the best deals, and during the course of an auction you are going to have to interact with both of them.

And yes Sean, I had a couple of Planks over the years and remember them well. I had an SGC 50 that set a price record that held up for many years. Today, it looks like an incredible bargain.

Quick inner net search says

"*If*the retailer does not*collect sales tax, the purchaser has the obligation to pay use*tax*directly to the state where the property is used as long as the item is taxable. ..:"

Awfully thin line there

I must say that I'm enjoying the bit of discussion between Barry and Scott.
It's always nice to get the views of someone who has or is actually in that business.

Let me rephrase my thought on recommending against bidding.

Lets say there's someone who is spending loads of money every auction, and buys stuff looking at quality and investment. And their question is something like "what do you think of card X? should I go for it?"
Now lets say the card is a 9, but not a great 9 and the auctioneer knows that buyer won't ultimately be happy with it OR, a card that they feel may have peaked and should be available for less in a year or two...


I think that saying either of those things is the only honest answer. Plus, while it may not serve the consigner best, someone who regularly spends a lot may over time generate far more for the auction house.


Or, I could be entirely wrong. I'd love to hear the perspectives of people actually doing business at that sort of level.

I think you have to be honest, that's the answer. And I know as an auctioneer I need to be careful.

If I told that hypothetical bidder he might not be happy with the card and he chooses not to bid, the card is still likely to sell for a retail price, and bidder, consignor, and auction house should all be happy (hopefully).

But if I tell the bidder falsely thst he will love the card, and he gets and not only doesn't like it but wants to return it for a refund, I have a bit of a disaster on my hands. Then I might not be able to pay my consignor if the underbidder doesn't want it.

So best thing is to tell the truth. It might cost the consignor one extra bid, but IMO that's the best way to resolve that problem.

"No comment" is both a lack of an answer and an answer at the same time. Maybe that's the correct response.

What would happen if Oregon suddenly passed sales tax legislation?

It’s a lost cause to try and impose a sales tax in Oregon. I believe it’s been defeated by voters like a dozen times through the years. Plus the state benefits a lot from a very high income tax. Both voters and the government are comfortable where they are at.

Instead the city of Portland is toying with the idea of a beer tax in this brewery loving town.

Oregon could be the last man standing in this country when it comes to this subject.

But I never say never.

If the asset is shipped to Oregon, stored there, then eventually sold and shipped from there, I fail to see the issue. Perhaps I'm missing something, but the line doesn't seel thin to me at all.

Now if it's shipped to the vault, stored for a month or 2, then shipped to CA or NY I cam foresee an issue arising.

"The asset?" Oh no is Brent-speak contagious?

Right! Not sure why people aren't getting this. It's not a service I'd use, but its perfectly legal. I would assume that if the buyer wanted to take possession of it later, then taxes would be due at that time.

Taxes being due and taxes being paid are two different things particularly where the state doesn't know what you bought, I would assume. Whereas if it's collected at the time of sale, there's no payment issue.

Just keeping with the spirit of the thread. I am curious if any tax professionals or CPAs know how if there is an amount of time something shipped to and kept in Oregon needs to stay there so that it wouldn't be legally taxable when transported out of the state.

It might depend on the use tax laws and regulations of each state, although I'm not sure a temporal gap really matters if the owner continuously retained ownership even if the "asset" was physically elsewhere.

If I buy a car in Oregon, register it there, and leave it there for 6 months I can then drive it to CA legally and not pay sales tax. Not sure about cards though.

That might work for some nice Trucks (Virgil Trucks, that is)...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Are you sure you wouldn't then owe use tax to CA?

21st Century Tulipmania
 

382 years ago I invested in tulips, but lost my shirt when they couldn’t be stored and then restored. Everyone knew they were altered.;)

My question then is:

Will the PWCC Vault be able to store my tulip bulbs as well as my other assets?

According to the tenets and definitions, I would think so.

What goes around comes around, eh?

Whatever you're drinking this early, I would like some. :D

A trimmed asset that never leaves the vault, how stupid can people be? Very stupid apparently.

Imagine That Barry... Just Tell the truth, LOL. You do it but that's one thing PWCC has a hard time with because he would incriminate himself, IMHO

Not from personal experience but people with addresses in both states do this all the time. You can even buy a car in ca and transport it out of state to avoid the sales tax. But if they catch you driving it in CA during the next 6 months you can be charged back for the tax.

Might want to ask Derek Jeter about the long term effect when the state of NY came after him for income taxes when he was saying he lived in Florida... didn't go so well for him...