I get the whole career thing...
but like Paul Henderson who scored the most famous goal in history (he is not in the Hockey Hall of Fame), Maris achieved something only a few players have been able to - ensuring his legacy, and he was extremely famous at some point....

Maybe these institutions should be called the Hall's of Career Stats and Longevity

I love this post.

Maris has more of an argument than Belle. Belle was a juicer who hit 380 hrs, those were a dime a dozen in the 90's / 2000's. Carlos Delgado had 100 more hrs and hit .280 and didn't even get 5% of the vote to stay on the ballot a couple years back.

This. As for Belle, I grew up watch8ng him play at The Jake, and he was as feared as they come for quite sometime. While I’m not sure he’s hall worthy, the standards to get in have slipped a bit lately. I mean, Mike Mussina will be in this year, and Fred McGriff probably next year.

If Joe Carter played in New York, Chicago, or some other major market for the moajority of his career instead of in front of 8,000 fans at old Cleveland Municiple Stadium he would absolutely be in. If he played in the ESPN and Fox Sports era of today, he’d be in.

Attachment 347205

McGriff - a stand out HOF package, if there ever was one.:D

Here are all the pitchers better than Mussina who are not in the Hall of Fame.

1. Roger Clemens

Based on his peak years I might put Schilling ahead of Mussina.

It is called the Hall of Fame. So shouldn't fame be recognized? Maris is unquestionable famous. He held for a very long time one of the most famous, remarkable and most prestigious records in all of sports. Absolutely Maris, yes! And they put in Harold Baines ?!?! Unbelievable

McGriff v Baines - contrast and compare...

'Talk amongst yourselves'


.

In 500 more games. Again, Belle retired because of injury not because of age or ineptitude. If Belle had been able to play a full career, he'd have hit 600+.

100backstroke, I could not possibly agree more with you. "Hall of Fame", not Hall of Fifteen Years of Remarkable Stats. Be that as it may, fifteen years of remarkable stats are what the BBWA has gone by to enshrine. The Old Timers Committee passed over Roger Maris, too. I won't insinuate a "what do they know?" line. I will not insinuate, but rather sharply accuse both groups of hating the Yankees in general. Roger Maris was a complete player whose peak was indeed short, but like the great Hack Wilson, accomplished some mighty terrific accomplishments for a couple years. I know, a couple years does not make a HOF career. You're right. However, the 61 in 61 ALONE should get Mr. Roger Eugene Maris elected to the MLB Hall of Fame. I do not care what anyone else says to the contrary. The man achieved more fame in 1961 ALONE than half the players on the plaques. I prize my Roger Maris cards and coins regardless of whether he is ever begrudged the honor due him. Many never understood the man or his value.

I'm Brian1961 because of my first name and the year I began collecting cards. The correlation is precisely what you might expect that to be. I am what I am and it is what it is.

Honestly, whether Mr. Maris is elected to the HOF is not as important to me as when MLB will finally quit dragging their big feet in the mud to overrule who genuinely holds the MLB single season home run record. We all know Mark McGwire finally confessed to taking steroids in his hot pursuit of Roger's hard-earned record. Barry Bonds steadfastly insists he broke the record and it's his, and you can forget Ruth, Maris, and McGwire! Somehow, the powers that be could not test the big braggart to see if he was legit. Bonds certainly did not offer his body to be tested, and defied everyone who accused him, believing himself to be "untouchable". Unfortunately for Barry, the many photos of him before, and during, his late career rampage tell a decidedly decisive picture of the man's euphoric numbers.

I know, I know, this is about Roger and Albert. I guess I just had to remind everyone of Roger's home run record that was initially broken 20 years ago last year, again and again through 2001 or whatever (by then I had tuned out!), but to the point, should rightfully be acknowledged as never having been legitimately broken.

Now that we're at 2019, I wonder if Bonds's guilt can ever be conclusively proven.

If youse guys don't want to go down that road, just skip this post.

--- Brian Powell

Brian,

Maris's Home Run record is also tainted.

First off, he did it in a 162 game season and NOT a 154 game season

and

2) He did it in a year where the pitching was watered down and OTHER players ALSO put up big numbers.

Norm Cash had a GREAT year in 1961 and put up better numbers over his career than Roger Maris did, so does Norm Cash deserve to be in the HOF??

David

This perspective is mystifying to me. What do you have to say about Babe Ruth's record then? He did it with the lively ball and without pitchers pitching underhanded and batters calling for a slow or fast pitch like they did in 1871. Give me a break.

Why anyone would try to take away from what Maris did is beyond my understanding. The man's feat was remarkable and likely will never be replicated by a clean player.

My point is, people are pointing to steroid abusers and saying they shouldn't be in the HOF and their records shouldn't count because they cheated (I agree). Yet, Maris is given a pass because of one year and one number while OTHER players who ALSO had a great 1961 season and who had BETTER career numbers than Maris aren't considered for the HOF.

Again look at Norm Cash's stats compared to Maris in 1961---

Cash had more hits, doubles, triples, walks, a higher batting average, on base percentage, slugging percentage, OPS and OPS+ and almost as many rbi's and total bases. As for his career, Cash also had a longer career and put up bigger numbers than Maris yet Cash is in no discussion about the HOF.

David

I honestly have no idea why Norm Cash enters into any discussion about Roger Maris' career or achievement.

Because Norm Cash played in the same league in the same year as Maris and batted against the same watered down pitching and look at his numbers compared to Maris. Cash had an overall better offensive year than Maris and had an overall better career than Maris yet Maris is the one getting the HOF love in this thread and on these boards while Cash isn't even being talked about.

I am comparing apples to apples and other than the 61, Maris doesn't stack up against even Norm Cash for 1961 or for his entire career.

If Maris had hit 59 home runs in 1961 then Cash most likely would have been the MVP because of the numbers he put up.

David

Because almost all baseball discussions are relative.

Take a look at 1961 - the league avg. BA was .258 - that doesn't seem so high as to call the pitching watered down. Lots of years the BA has been higher.

Maris won 2 MVP awards. Are there any other multiple MVP award winners not in HOF ?

I am still baffled by your characterization here. Maris won the MVP in 1960. Norm cash finished FOURTH in voting in 1961, behind Jim Gentile.

Murphy for one.

Juan Gonzalez also.

Emphatic +1. Schilling, more than any other player (including Pedro, Manny and Papi), turned the Red Sox from a loser franchise to a winner.

Sincerely,

Mystique and Aura

Jim Gentile did have one heck of a 1961 season...46 home runs, 141 rbi, .302 batting average, .646 slugging percentage.

Brian

Watered down pitching allowed Maris to have a career year, Cash to have a career year and Gentile to have a career year. Yet Maris is the only one being talked about as being a Hall Of Famer.

If you are going to give credit for Maris having a big year when the pitching was watered down then you also have to give credit to the other guys and if you do that then Maris had a worse year than the other two except for the home run total.

David

Attachment 347430
"Hey, Norm...[chew...chew]...how much you wanna bet that in 2019 people are going to have a very contentious argument about you and me?"

Maris would never win the MVP today. Mark Mcgwire didn't win MVP when he hit 70 Hrs. It is also why players aren't elected to the HoF because they broke one record or had one good season. Mantle should have won MVP, he led the AL in WAR with 10.5. Cash was 2nd with 9.2. Maris was tied for 5th with 6.9.

Maris may have hit 61 Hrs, but he was certainly greatly helped by having the true AL MVP protecting him in the lineup. Maris was never intentionally walked in 1961. Most likely never pitched around and saw good pitches when pitchers fell behind in the count. Still overall he didn't have that great of a season. When Ryan Howard hit 58 Hrs in 2006, we had 37 IBB and a total of 108 BB. How many more Hrs does he hit if he is protected in the lineup by Mickey Mantle? Today we have the ability to look deeper than how many Hrs a player hit or that writers voted for a guy who they really shouldn't have for an award.

Not that great of a year? He led the entire league in runs, home runs, rbi's and total bases while breaking a record held by Babe Ruth. McGwire didn't win when he hit 70 but Sosa did for hitting 66; not really an apt comparison when both players broke the record and one of them still won MVP. Bonds also won MVP when he broke McGwire's record.

Lastly, I think you're wrong about players not getting in for a historic season. Bill Terry was a great hitter, but he waited 15 years for induction and it took him 9 years to even get 50%. Are you suggesting his ultimate induction had nothing to do with him hitting 400?

His .400 season had something to do with it but Terry was a lifetime .341 hitter so his great season wasn't the only reason. Maris' supporters want him in the HOF based on 1 great season.

Are you sure that's not why Terry got in? He's ranked as the number 23rd first baseman of all time, behind John Olerud. His batting average looks nice but his advanced stats put him behind all other HOF first basemen:

54.2 career WAR / 41.2 7yr-peak WAR / 47.7 JAWS
Average HOF 1B (out of 21):
66.8 career WAR / 42.7 7yr-peak WAR / 54.7 JAWS

Right, but at the time he got in, there were no advanced stats so the focus probably was more on his BA. Sisler is another guy whose advanced stats really lag behind his BA and perhaps public perception.

Which one, though? Lifetime or the year he hit 400?

I suspect some of each, but that without the career the one season would not have been sufficient.

Everyone with 5000+ ABs and a .340+ BA is in the Hall. Doesn't matter what their best season was.

edited to add: The best career batting average of players with 5000 or more at-bats who haven't been inducted is .324 (Babe Herman), followed by Helton and Cabrera at .316.

Do you think if Babe Herman hit 7 points higher in 1930 and finished with a 400 average as opposed to 393 he would be in the HOF?

But still ending up with a .324 career average? Good question. I guess I'd put it around a 50-60% chance, but I would contrast that with the probability that Terry would have gotten in had his .400 season been a .393 instead and his career average still been .341. I'd still put his odds at better than 95%.

1930 was the year that the entire NL batted over .300 with an ERA of 4.97.

Terry was a rung or two above Herman for the year and for their careers, but the hitting in 1930 makes Lefty Grove’s pitching seem surreal. Terry and Herman not so much.

AL batting numbers in 1930 were a bit less than the NL, but Grove was a good part of the reason for the difference.;)

Roger Maris
 

As of today...…

107 for Maris

117 not for Maris

Maris is gaining !


http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...keesAdv50x.jpg


TED Z

T206 Reference
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Wouldn't it be 107 for and 156 against? The for only Joey would be a vote against Roger. Then Roger gets the both votes.

Those old cigarette ads are cool.

He was also a dead ringer for Baron von Richthofen. That should count for something.

Richthofen is definitely Hall of Fame material! That goes without saying. :D

I am still trying to pick my jaw up from the floor with the Harold Baines induction. Hall of Fame - says so right there in black and white...FAME. Not one person alive can rightfully argue Roger Maris was not famous.

Yeah he went 80 for 81.

See post #5.

The argument is whether or not he WAS EVER famous.... not whether or not he is famous now. By that logic, how many people or even casual baseball fans today could tell you who Mathewson or Ward or Anson are? Probably close to zero... so does that mean they were never famous? Of course not.
And people in the West, South or Midwest certainly knew who Maris was in 1961... unless they lived under a rock.

You can also add that most players with little fame do not have movies made after them.

It's not in the top 500 seasons for position players WAR. You want to put a guy in the HOF based on 1 season then why not Al Rosen for 10.1 WAR in 1953? Or how about Dwight Gooden for 12.2 WAR in 1985?

Rico Petrocelli 1969 was right up there with Rosen.

We are not talking about just any old puny record here like most bunt singles in a season, or most steals of 3rd, or some other such record. We are talking about one of the most haloed, prestigious and most famous records in all of American sports history - most HR in a season ! Also, by the way he had not one but 2 MVP winning seasons, and several all-star games to boot. Down play it all you want, everyone it entitled to their opinions.

DiMaggio's 1941 season is good for only 123rd all time in terms of single season WAR. Does that make his 56 game streak null and void? It's still considered one of the greatest seasons anyone has ever had.

Denny McLain, anyone? Back to back Cys and an astonishing 30 win season.

Nope
The Cy Young has been awarded how many times? To how many different pitchers? At least a dozen different players have won it multiple times....
Hitting 61 Home runs or more? Now how many players are in THAT list?
His 31 win-season is especially impressive... I'll give you that.
But wins by pitchers carry nowhere near the fame of hitting home runs...

I don't think anyone identified McLain as a guy who fell off the cliff in the other thread, but he would be a very good example.

Agreed. Maris deserves to be in the HOF.

Roger Maris
 

Joe DiMaggio's 56-game hitting streak will never be broken with the current breed of BB players. All other BB records may be broken....BUT, not this one (in my opinion).

Furthermore, it dramatically shows that this term called "WAR" is just a bunch of newspeak "hor$e-cr@p" as a meaningful metric to judge a BB players value to his team.

Right-on, packs....thanks for posting this bit of trivia.



http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...keesAdv50x.jpg


TED Z

T206 Reference
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While I agree Ted that the Clipper's record will probably never be broken... Its possible.
What's impossible, is someone climbing past Young's 511 wins... that record is sealed for the ages.

Brent

Joe DiMaggio's 56-game streak is possibe. But, highly improbable. DiMaggio's hitting style has become a lost art. How many of you realize that DiMaggio ran a 66-game hitting streak in the PCL ?
So, Joe had "been there, done that".

When Rose was flirting with breaking it in 1978 with his 44-game streak, the sports media pressure was unbelievable. And, there in is the all important mental component that factors in to trying
to achieve this record.


TED Z

T206 Reference
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Barring any major changes in how the game is played (which is a little unrealistic I'll admit), there's about a 5% chance DiMaggio's record is broken in the next 100 years. That's extrapolating from Bill James's calculations of the annual probabilities. For Cy Young I'd guess it's lower than 1% but not much lower. Imagine this scenario...

A pitcher with peak ability somewhat better than, say, Pedro Martinez also has, via good genes and mechanics and improvements in athletic training, the longevity of Nolan Ryan and is fortunate enough to pitch for a team that, on average across his career, also has the best lineup in his league. Let's say also that his career starts ten years from now when every team has a 2-3 inning starter and a 1 inning closer, and that this guy's job is to pitch innings 3-8 every fifth day or 4-8 every fourth day. He pitches for 25 years and also happens to be a slightly more skilled pitcher than the best ones we've seen so far. Such a pitcher would average better than 20 wins a year (i.e., > 500 career Ws).

The odds that someone will break Hoss Radbourn's single season mark are much lower, and as I've mentioned before, anyone who can somehow win 61 games in a year at some future date stands an excellent chance of winning at least 512 in his career, whereas even a pitcher who somehow ends up with 512 career wins is unlikely to have had any 50 (let alone 60) win seasons.

He literally struck out less in a season a couple of times than some guys now strike out in a week. His record, at least in present times, is safe.

But his WAR was only good for 123rd all time. It was even lower than Norm Ca.....

Yeah I saw that it's hard to believe there are 122 better seasons out there than DiMaggio 1941 I don't know WAR well enough to know where the disconnect is there.

On a interesting note Carl Yastrzemski had the 3rd best single season WAR in 1967. I am not sure with even using the terms theoretical and hypothetical that season can be the 3rd best ever.:confused:

To break Ryan's 7 no-hitters, Wow ! Now we are talking some amazing incredible other-worldly pitcher. Probably have to do a DNA test just to make sure he is from Planet Earth.

"All models are wrong, but some are useful"-- British statistician George E. P. Box

Hitting streaks don't add value apart from the hits themselves though, and it doesn't even rank in the top 500 seasons in terms of his hit total.

George Box is noted for his invention of the Box Score as well.;)

As well as his lunches, socials, and jellyfish.

Damn it, just picked up my first pack of camels in over 15 years... was only a matter of time. Totally blaming it on the catchy advertising.

30 HR
125 RBI
.357 BA
,440 OBP
.643 SLG
1.083 OPS

Who said anything about the streak?

Can't believe I'm dignifying this with a response, but here I am, so congratulations.

1) At least five of us just in this thread, including yourself.
2) It is literally, as I suspect you already know, the reason DiMaggio's 1941 season (as opposed to any of the hundreds of other 30+ HR/125+ RBI seasons) is being discussed here.
3) Zero, yes zero, of the very statistics you just cited above rank in the top 100. Most aren't even close. For that matter, none of them even ranks as DiMaggio's personal best.

Not any more. It's only the 7th highest total. It's not like there was a lot of interest when Stanton hit 59 in 2017 or Ryan Howard hit 58 in 2006. If Maris couldn't get elected 25 years ago, there is zero chance he gets in in the future.

So, now 7th place only behind the steroid junkies diminishes Maris' old record?

It's a great single season record and I do think those who hit more are tainted. But it's still a single season, and we evaluate HOFers based on their career. And by that measure Maris is not even close.

The "Hall of Great Careers" vs. the "Hall of Fame". I will totally give you the fact that Maris' overall career numbers could be short. But it isn't called the Hall of great careers. It is called the Hall of Fame. Many HOF members can't hold a candle to Maris in the Fame department. I feel, maybe incorrectly, that HOF has a duty to capture historical significant players/accomplishments.

They certainly have exhibits for these things. But you would have to change the whole paradigm to elect players based on your criteria.

The National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum is an American History museum. It serves as the central point for the study of the history of baseball in the United States. The Hall's motto is "Preserving History, Honoring Excellence, Connecting Generations."

This is taken directly from the Hall itself, not my opinion.

Now my opinion - what Maris did was quite historical, most definitely should be worth preserving, the season he had was indeed most excellent, and having him in would connect generations.

I think you are confusing the Hall of Fame with the players enshrined with plaques in the plaque room. Pete Rose will never be enshrined, but his all time hit record is recognized in the museum. Barry Bonds will never be enshrined, but his HR records are recognized in the museum. Roger Maris will never be enshrined, but his HR record was recognized in the museum until it was broken. Just because a player doesn't get elected to the HOF doesn't mean he won't have a place in the museum outside the plaque room.

I have never been to the Hall, don't know about they layout. If they want to keep him out of the Plaque room, I guess ok. But they should always have some sort of exhibit recognizing Maris because he fits in perfectly with the Hall's motto. He belongs in the non-plaque room area more than most. I am ok with that.

Roger Maris was AL MVP Twice . If anybody here collects baseball cards his card was number 1 twice. The teams he played on won pennents 7 times 5 with Yankees twice with Cards. He was an all star 4 years. He had 3 World series Rings. And he played in an era with many dominant pitchers. You have to consider when a player played as well as his numbers. How many other 2 time MVP's not in the hall of fame? Maris Juan Gonzalez and Albert Pujols.

Murphy. Bonds. And since you named Pujols who isn't eligible, Cabrera.

How many dominant pitchers were in the AL during Maris' career, by the way? Ford doesn't count. Koufax Gibson Marichal Perry Drysdale all the other league. Bunning?

He was card #1 in 1962 after setting the HR record, but when was the other one? Andy Pafko and Dusty Rhodes were also #1, so that isn't a good reason. As has been said earlier, he had 3 good seasons and that isn't enough. If it was, Lefty O'Doul would have been in long ago.