Originally Posted by jggames (Post 2108252)

Hi Ted
My comment wasn’t referring to any trademark issues. When one looks up information about ATC’s breakup into ATC, Liggett & Meyers, and P. Lorillard in 1911 there are tons of articles about which brands go with which new company. All of the brands, including Polar Bear and Sweet Cap that I left off my original list are mentioned in various newspapers. I didn’t see any (not that it doesn’t exist) that mention Coupon. Just a point of reference. I actually do think Coupon Type-1 belongs with the T206s for the stylistic details you mention. When they were printed just seems to be harder to nail down.

Originally Posted by tedzan (Post 2108255)

Can't we cease this nit-picking, meaning-less crap. And try to have a more meaningful exchange. Damn it, once again a "hi-jacked" thread by the usual suspects ! !


Continuing......my Mickey Doolan brings us to 26 different 1910 COUPON cards on display so far in this thread. This number represents 38 % of this set.

So, there are many more to show. So, let's see some more of these rare gems.


http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...UPONDoolan.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...PONDoolanB.jpg


Note the hint of cardboard residue from the cigarette carton this card was pasted on.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

Originally Posted by tedzan (Post 2107609)

OK guys....).I am re-playing this thread for those of you who aren't members of the : " The 1910 COUPON club " :).

As you read the posts in this thread, you will see that a fair number of serious collectors in this forum agree that the 68 cards in the 1910 COUPON
set are actually a sub-set of the T206.
I will spare you the usual gobble-de-gook that goes with this debate, instead I will reprise and emphasize a significant factor that sets the timeline
of when this set of cards were printed and issued.

Circa 2007, Brian Weisner and I had an interesting conversation regarding the Major League subjects in this set. Brian pointed out that the majority
of them were NOT printed with POLAR BEAR backs (like the 138 other 350-only Series T206's. After researching this....sure enough 39 of the 48
subjects are POLAR BEAR No-Prints.
The Six Super-Prints and Willett were printed with POLAR BEAR. This is logical, since these seven subjects were extended into the 350/460 Series.
Engle and LaPorte (350-only subjects) are the other two printed with POLAR BEAR.

What does this signify to us. Well American Litho did not introduce the POLAR BEAR backs until the 350-only series press runs circa Summer 1910.
Therefore, the absence of POLAR BEAR backs on the majority of these Major Leaguers in the 1910 COUPON set tells us this series of cards preceded
the POLAR BEAR print runs.
So this is my argument for the 1910 COUPON timeline being being Spring/Summer 1910. It makes sense to me. Especially since the subsequent 250
subjects in the T206 set were all printed with POLAR BEAR backs.

Because, if those "nay-sayers" with their contention that this set was issued after 1912, then explain to us why the lettering in the captions of these
cards are NOT blue ?


My hypothetical 48-card sheet of the 1910 COUPON Major Leaguers (reflects an early 350)-only Series sheet)

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...sSheet12xx.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...Sheet12xxx.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...sSheet12xx.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...eSheet12xx.jpg


Major Leaguers (48 subjects)

Becker......Boston NL
Bender (trees)......A's
Byrne......St Louis NL
Campbell......Cincinnati
Chance (portrait-yellow)......Chicago NL
Charles......St Louis NL
Chase (blue portrait)......New York AL
Chase (dark cap)......New York AL
Cobb (red portrait)......Detroit
Cree......New York AL
Donovan (throwing)......Detroit
Doolan (fielding)......Phillies
Dubuc......Cincinnati
Dunn......Brooklyn
Engle......New York AL
Evers (bat-yellow sky)......Chicago NL
Fletcher.....New York NL
Hartsel......A's
Hoffman......St Louis AL
Howell (portrait)......St Louis AL

Huggins (portrait).....Cincinnati
Huggins (hands at mouth)......Cincinnati
Hunter......Brooklyn
Killian (portrait)......Detroit
Knabe......Phillies
LaPorte......New York AL
Lennox......Brooklyn
Marquard (portrait)......New York NL
Mathewson (dark cap)......New York NL
Marshall......Brooklyn
McBride......Washington
McElveen......Brooklyn
McIntyre.......Detroit
Mitchell.......Cincinnati
Mowery......Cincinnati
Myers (bat)......New York NL
Myers (fielding)......New York NL
Paskert.......Cincinnati
Rhoades (hands at chest)......Cleveland
Rossman......Detroit

Schmidt (portrait)......Detroit
Starr......Boston NL
Street (portrait)......Washington
Summers......Detroit
Sweeney.......Boston NL
Thomas......A's
Willett......Detroit
Wilson......Pittsburg


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 2108279)

Interesting discussion, sorry if I missed this, but did Burdick just group all the Coupons together into one designation, or was it any more sophisticated than that?

Originally Posted by brianp-beme (Post 2108289)

This is the only one I can possibly post as one that I can claim as one that I own.

Brian (making the simple statement a thing of the past)

Originally Posted by tedzan (Post 2108285)

Hi Peter

Jeff Burdick identified the timeline of the three T213 sets as a very narrow 1914 - 1915 issues.

Well, he was mistaken at both ends. The 1910 COUPON (T213-1) was issued circa Spring/Summer 1910. The T213-3 identifies players whose
captions indicate their teams as late as 1919.

The most significant error by Burdick is not realizing that the lettering of the captions of the 1910 COUPON cards are not printed in BLUE ink.

After 1912, American Litho printed the captions of their T-card issues (T213-2. T213-3, T214, T215-2) with BLUE ink.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

Originally Posted by tedzan (Post 1841319)

Pat
1st.....Here is exactly what I said in the 1st post in this thread...…..



Pat....do notice that I stated...."Such a cigarette carton"

This particular carton which Jeremy posted in his thread some years ago contained COUPON cigarettes manufactured in 1913 - 1919. And, if cards were enclosed in this type of carton,
they would have been either T213-2 or T213-3.

This we know for sure, since the LIGGETT & MYERS TOBACCO CO. logo is printed on it.


The ATC divesture (circa June 1911) resulted in the following manner…………

LIGGETT & MYERS was given about 28 per cent of the cigarette market:

Coupon
Piedmont
Fatima
American Beauty
Home Run
Imperiales
King Bee
Fatima (the only 15 Turkish blend
and the cheap straight domestic brands.

P. LORILLARD received 15 per cent of the nation's business:

Helmar
Egyptian Deities
Turkish Trophies
Murad
Mogul
and all straight Turkish brands

AMERICAN TOBACCO CO. retained 37 per cent of the market:

Sweet Caporal
Hassan
Mecca
Pall Mall, its expensive all-Turkish brand, named for a fashionable London street in the 18th century where "pall-mall" (a precursor to croquet) was played.

R. J. REYNOLDS received no cigarette line but was awarded 20 per cent of the plug trade.



2nd....." and can you answer the question of where the 1910 date for the type 1 comes from."

Approx 10 years ago, Louisiana Newspaper clippings (1909 or 1910) were posted in a Net54 thread introducing the new ATC tobacco brand, COUPON.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

Originally Posted by tedzan (Post 1841472)

It isn't different. The pack depicted on Jon's site is labelled LIGGETT & MYERS; therefore, it was issued 1913 (or later). If it had BB cards in it they would be T213-2 or T213-3, ONLY.
OR, it may have Movie stars in it from that era. For example...…

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...geBeban25b.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...geBeban25x.jpg





Your statement here tells us that you don't realize Jefferson Burdick incorrectly classified all three T213 sets as 1914-1915 issues. This timeline is a proven fallacy, on both ends of it.

"T213-1"......1910

T213-2...…….1914-1916

T213-3...…….1916-1919




The newspaper clipping was from the New Orleans Times Picayune. The date is circa late 1908, or early 1909. I cannot seem to find it (I read it at least 10 years ago).
You find it, you are good at searching for things.


Frankly, I am tired of playing this game. You do not want to accept my research, fine.....that's your prerogative. It appears to me that many guys responding in this thread
have more of an open mind.


TED Z
.

Originally Posted by DixieBaseball (Post 1842495)

LOL... :D

The 20 Southern Leaguer's are not included in the Type 2 or Type 3 Set. That is one glaring difference in the the Type 1's vs the Type 2 & 3's. Obviously the dates are different and the 20 Type 1 Southern Leaguer's are identical to the T206 players from 1909-11, yet not included in the 1914 & 1919 Coupon sets. If you take for example the 4 SL Nashville players (Bay,Bernhard,Ellam,Perdue) from the T206 set, they match spot on to the Type 1 Coupon set, but when you get into the Type 2 1914 Coupons, Nashville players change over to Al Bridwell & Gabby Street & same for Type 3 Coupons as they feature Al & Gabby. It's like this with other players from SL teams and that makes a distinction between the 20 SL featured in Coupon that were offered in the American Litho / ATC brands later named - T206.

Also, as for the New Orleans Times Picayune, there was a series of Coupon Advertisements in the 1909-10 papers depicting different Sportsmen scenarios, like hunting, horse racing, sporting events, etc. The pack is on the advertisement with T206 style cards showing and players names. One such advertisement (that I own), depicts 3 Southern Leaguer's coming out of the top of the pack. When I have time I will have to dig up the Newspaper as I don't have it scanned and its buried in a dry dark place. The Coupon Ad's were run for a handful of months around the 1909-10 time frame.

Originally Posted by Pat R (Post 1818631)

It has long been thought that the southern league players were printed
with Hindu backs during the 150 series and that they were printed with Old Mill
backs in the early printing of the 350 series but that might not be the case.

The first known Hindu ad that showed pictures of but didn't mention southern
leaguers ran on August 13 1909.
Attachment 330858

The first known ad that mentioned the southern leaguers ran on August 23 1909.
Attachment 330859

I recently discovered this Old Mill ad that ran for a week in a Tampa
newspaper beginning on August 14 1909.
Attachment 330860

It seems that Eli Witt was quite an entrepreneur who had ties
with R.J. Reynolds.
Attachment 330861Attachment 330862

Originally Posted by Pat R (Post 1819223)

I feel like a jackass after my last post about the Old Mill ads. I visit
and use t206resource all the time and I've visited the advertisement
section several times but until last night I never noticed the galleries for the
Sporting Life, Hindu, Old Mill and Piedmont ads.

The Old mill gallery has 26 different ads.
http://t206resource.com/Old%20Mill%20Ad%20Gallery.html

Jim and Tim did a great job on the ads and I would like to
add some new information to theirs.

All 26 of the ads have a matching ad that was printed in Texas newspapers
with the exact picture but different wording and all the Texas paper ads
state that the packs contain Texas League baseball pictures

All the Texas Ads are on the right
Attachment 331067
Attachment 331068
Attachment 331069
Attachment 331070
Attachment 331071
Attachment 331072
Attachment 331074

The earliest Texas ad I found appeared in the Austin Statesman on Sept. 7 1910 the first non Texas ad appeared in a District of Columbia and Virginia
newspaper on March 1 1910. The last Texas ad appeared in the El Paso Herald on Dec 9 1910 and the last non Texas ad was in a Henderson NC paper on
Sept. 29 1910.

After the Dec. 9 I didn't find any Old Mill ads until this one
that appeared in the Galvelston daily news on Feb 14 1911
that made no mention of baseball pictures.
Attachment 331075

Originally Posted by RCMcKenzie (Post 2108449)

Pat,

To Barry's comment earlier in the thread, and Peter's question, if type 2 and 3 Coupons did not exist, would Burdick have classified T213-1's as T206?

What were Old Mill and Sovereign cards called in 1910? Were they collected together to form a set? Were they called "White Borders"? Are Coupon cards made by a different group of people than the cards with Cycle backs?

Here are 3 different Diamond Stars cards with 3 different backs. Blue backs were released later than green backs, with the same front. The black back was re-released 40 years later by a different company. Are Coupon cards similar to the TCMA Diamond Stars card? I'm not looking at this as arguing, just trying to get a better understanding of the cards we collect.

(Also adding Bill Sweeney to the virtual set...)

Originally Posted by Pat R (Post 2108509)

I'm not sure I understand all of your questions Rob. Personally it doesn't matter to me if some people want to group them in with t206's but I do think the date they were printed is important.

In most of the newspapers they were all just called baseball pictures or cigarette pictures all the way back to the late 1800's with the Old Judges and other sets from that era.

I think because of the popularity of what we now call the t206's shortly before the t213-2's they decided to try the same thing with the Coupon type 1's and the cheapest/easiest way was to print them on the thinner stock using the t206 images. (I think this answers Peters question too)

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 2108512)

Pat in part, but why then make the change for the Type 2s?

Originally Posted by Pat R (Post 2108514)

Just an opinion Peter but my thought is the "trial" was successful so the decided to print them on thicker stock and maybe put their own stamp on them by using the blue captions.

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 2108516)

I guess my theory from a very high vantage point and obviously not having probed this as you have, would be that the change resulted from being under new ownership who decided to do things differently than ATC did, or maybe there was even a copyright issue and they had to make them look different. Thus, the first printing looked like the rest of the ATC cards because in fact Coupon was still an ATC brand at the time. But that may be contrary to specific evidence of date you've uncovered.

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 2108534)

It's obviously an after the fact designation but that doesn't, to me, make it arbitrary, I assume Burdick's intent was to group all cards from ATC brands that had fronts that looked alike?

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 2108534)

It's obviously an after the fact designation but that doesn't, to me, make it arbitrary, I assume Burdick's intent was to group all cards from ATC brands that had fronts that looked alike?

Originally Posted by Pat R (Post 2108539)

Peter, I don't know what Burdick's intentions were but personally I don't think they were printed with the t206's.

Originally Posted by Pat R (Post 2108539)

Peter, I don't know what Burdick's intentions were but personally I don't think they were printed with the t206's.

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 2108540)

Yes I understand and I would not presume to say you are wrong given what I've seen of your research and analytical abilities, just trying to ask some questions to perhaps help clarify things perhaps not.

Originally Posted by RCMcKenzie (Post 2108542)

What is a T206? Take away the nomenclature. Can you describe why a Ty Cobb with a Ty Cobb back, a Keeler port Sovereign 150, and a Keeler port Piedmont 350 are part of a set?

I asked earlier if you thought Coupon 1 was a type of Broder. I'm totally fine with that. I'm reading that's what you are saying. It could have been a one-off test print on cheaper paper without a release date at all, could it not?

Originally Posted by Pat R (Post 2108573)

For me it's easy with the Keeler portrait examples as they were grouped
together when they started printing the set.
Attachment 461171

The Cobb I personally don't consider part of the set for several reasons one
of them being we don't have proof of when they were printed.

I'm not familiar with the term Broder but as I said I think the Coupons
copied the t206's and were printed after the t206 printings ended.

Originally Posted by RCMcKenzie (Post 2108538)

Burdick did a great job, and later Lipset and Lemke. Pat is pointing to evidence that I don't think was known to Burdick. Perhaps, it was. By arbitrary, I mean casually, he left off T215-1 and T213-1, and sorted them with the blue-captioned ones.

On the Journals, did I read correctly that the T36 Auto Drivers set was only distributed in packs for a single day? There are far more examples to be found of T36 than T213-1.

Originally Posted by G1911 (Post 2108606)

Many of the pages are also missing, they are numbered to at least 380. Including the Posey letters not counted in the page count, there are 65 pages still together plus the remnants of the T206 pages someone ripped out of the collection to sell at some point, removing a lot of context.

I suspect T36 is one of the issues that had multiple issue (and print?) runs, and so was not issued for only March 27 and 28, 1911.

Originally Posted by RCMcKenzie (Post 2108611)

Thanks for the update. I agree that there are too many T36 Auto Drivers cards around today for them to have had a severely limited print run. I glanced through some of the content on the Journals that I think was on the non-sports board awhile back, and remember the T36 part.

I was kind of hoping to wind-down the T206/T213 discussion for now, at least from my side. The reason I have been able to collect-up so many Coupons is that T213 cards have always been viewed as some sort of inferior knock-off to T206, less-so today than in the past.

Originally Posted by G1911 (Post 2108618)

Congratulations on your set Rob, and good luck on Rhoades!

Originally Posted by RCMcKenzie (Post 2108611)

Thanks for the update. I agree that there are too many T36 Auto Drivers cards around today for them to have had a severely limited print run. I glanced through some of the content on the Journals that I think was on the non-sports board awhile back, and remember the T36 part.

I was kind of hoping to wind-down the T206/T213 discussion for now, at least from my side. The reason I have been able to collect-up so many Coupons is that T213 cards have always been viewed as some sort of inferior knock-off to T206, less-so today than in the past.