I think you have no clue as to what goes on inside prisons.

It's a bit strange to insiders as well :)

I think you watch too much TV. We're not talking about a state penn. Bill Mastro wasn't dropped into an episode of Oz. He made it out just fine. And with plenty of money to live on.

-Ryan

Right its case by case...hes part of the 99% that it worked out...would you willing to take that 1 out of 100 chance it goes really really bad for you..

[QUOTE=biohazard;1693721]So does everyone believe or assume that auction houses, dealers with large monthly submissions receive special treatment from the grading houses?

Ask Brent Huigens.

[QUOTE=WWG;1693829]LOL AWESOME, that has to be the post of the day.

They clearly said minimum security. Do you know what goes on inside minimum security prisons. He could easily spend $20k just buying people off which isn't even needed in minimum security and it's only a drop in the bucket for what he would have left. Mastro and Dougie need a filthy beating if you ask me and as a shilled bidder I may know someone for the job.

Hats off to Jeffrey Lichtman and Ryan Christoff, two great ambassadors for the hobby! And also to Michael O'Keeffe, who has played such an enormous role in documenting hobby issues at The New York Daily News for so many years, and in the process, by doing so, playing an unsung enormously significant role in promoting positive change. All of these guys at times have been "punching bags" for being outspoken activists, but were always unfazed by being at odds with popular opinions or personal interests of others regarding hobby issues (both relating to Mastro and Legendary Auctions as well as many other hobby issues) over the years. I have no doubt the American Greed producers are very thankful these gentlemen were willing to devote their time to appear in the show. As someone who loves the hobby, I personally am thankful for all their efforts to make the hobby a better and safer place for all.

Ryan, that was a beautiful parting salutation in your email to Mastro Auctions! That was one of many highlights for me! Jeff, you have such incredible insight and knowledge and ability to communicate. I GREATLY appreciate your willingness to so often speak truths that are at times not so well received but so spot-on and valuable. Your great contributions to the field are very under appreciated. There are many others that have made tremendous efforts and contributions to positive change (ironically some that don't always get along, but at the end of the day, are all really on the same page), including Leon L, John M, Peter S, Jay B and, frankly, too many others to name.

I thought the show was GREAT! Was it perfect? No. But, like Ryan said, it's an impossible job to cover all this crime in less than an hour. There is no doubt that (if time allowed) much important additional information and additional stories could have been covered, and there is no doubt that different people (maybe every person) would have included (or excluded) different things, if given the opportunity. I think we have to remember that the show is not really designed or intended to be comprehensive. It's meant to be an introduction to the Mastro Auctions story for the general public. And it's meant to be great entertainment. I think they were very successful on both counts.

Perhaps most important, echoing Ryan Christoff's EXTREMELY accurate sentiments expressed regarding FBI agent Brian Brusokas:

The entire collecting world - each and every collector on Net54, and all collectors NOT on the board (as well as all collectors yet-to-be in the future!) - owe an immeasurable debt of gratitude to SA Brian Brusokas. Once the criminal issues of the field in general, and with reference to Mastro Auctions in particular, hit his desk, he immediately understood the magnitude and significance of addressing the fraud issues at Mastro and the field. Some problems involve easily understood fraud (such as fraud involving fake autographs and memorabilia, and restored or altered cards).

But some of the greatest and costliest fraud in the field was not as easily appreciated, or easy to prove (especially due to intentionally destroyed and doctored bidding records): He understood the importance of addressing Mastro Auctions' rampant shill bidding. The true cost to the public was incalculable. He also understood the great cost of Mastro's common practice of reporting fake sales when their shill bidding back-fired: As detailed on the show by federal prosecutor Steve Grimes, one of the popular methods of fraud by Mastro Auctions was to arrange for items to be put up for auction, and then if they were not bid (or shill bid) high enough, the items would be “won” by a Mastro shill bid account and then secretly returned to the consignor with no charge or commissions. In this way, a fake sale at a desired level is reported, which could actually be used to help as reference (as a market influence or sales tool) for a future sale of the very same item. And if only one real bidder could be drawn in to bid and win at the desired level – voila! – a real (though shill-bid) sale at a shill-bid inflated price that does not reflect the real value and demand for the item.

This may be easy to take for granted now in hindsight, but believe me, getting law enforcement to even understand the concept and costs of shill bidding at all, let alone to take action, was a tall order. No case like this had ever been brought by the government before. FBI Agent Brian Brusokas immediately understood the incredible costs to the public of these shill bidding practices (as so effectively described by Jeffrey Lichtman and others in the American Greed episode), and he worked with prosecutors (who also deserve tremendous appreciation for their efforts) to determine that this was a very serious problem deserving of attention to protect the public. The entire collecting world was being cheated. Mastro Auctions was a ground-breaking case in so many ways. Everyone familiar with or privileged to have special insight into the case knows that its success could not have possibly happened at all without the personal interest and super-human talents of one agent. His extraordinary ability to collect information about and understand all aspects of this complex field, as well as (or better) than even the most seasoned veterans of the industry, was an almost impossible prerequisite for success. Brian Brusokas is that agent. Though I’m sure he had help, ultimately, he made it all happen. And if not for SA Brian Brusokas, almost everyone on this board would still be getting robbed every auction by being shill bid at Mastro auctions.

Well, almost everybody. Jeff...he wouldn't be interested in continuing to place bids at an auction he knew had a "maniac" sitting there waiting to shill bid him up. And Ryan...well, you'd still be banned!

My best to the entire board!

Sincerely,

Rob L

Robert Lifson

info@americanainvestments.com

Well said Rob, Ryan, and others.

I thought the show was great. My only hope is that this is the beginning and not the end of investigating corruption in our hobby. There's plenty of others that need to stand behind bars.

jeff

Nope. Gain from the sale of collectibles is a special category of capital gains. Assuming the collectible had been held for more than one year, the gain is taxed at ordinary income rates with a cap of 28%. So if you're in the 15% marginal bracket, the tax on the gain is 15%. If you're in the 33% marginal bracket, your tax is 28%. Note that many states don't distinguish much between sources of income (like MD, where I am), so income is income and there's no special treatment for capital gains.

If the gain is from a quick flip, like Mr Evans apparently, then it's short-term and it's all at ordinary income tax rate with no cap. (Though the highest bracket is currently 39.6%, plus the 3.8% NIIT on investment income.)

Bill

Finally watched it today. I though it was very well done for the maybe 40 minutes of actual content.

I finally saw the show as well and would like to sign on to the compliments paid to Jeff and Ryan.


Mark

American Greed Episode Bonus Clips!
 

I was very surprised to find extra Mastro Auction episode video clips on the American Greed website. These were listed as "web exclusive" videos on the official CNBC American Greed website and obviously represent footage that could have easily made it onto the show but just couldn't make the final cut due to editing and time constraints. There is great commentary and very interesting stories presented by FBI SA Brian Brusokas and former federal prosecutor Steven Grimes in these clips and I thought anyone not aware of them (which I assume is most as I just happened to trip over them by chance and don't recall anyone mentioning) might really like to see them too.

https://www.cnbc.com/video/2017/08/2...ke-a-buck.html

https://www.cnbc.com/video/2017/08/2...nce-faked.html

https://www.cnbc.com/video/2017/08/2...ally-stop.html

Thanks Rob. More good clips and SA Brusokas unraveling the Mastro/Legendary Fraud scandal.....Too bad those didn't make the show...

A guy who ripped off an old man and turned $500 into $49000 probably should not be going on tv griping that someone cheated him

So which t206 Plank was re-backed?

I believe it was a psa 6.

The re-backed Plank referred to was offered in Mastro Auctions April 22, 2004 sale and sold for $51,519. The PSA certification number was 11731735.

Here is the catalog description:

High Grade 1909-11 T206 White Border Key Rarity - Eddie Plank

Graded EX-MT 6 by PSA, with only three examples in the world graded higher. Of the 26 copies of this card encapsulated by PSA (a total that's only a few more than the hobby's premier service has holdered of the famed T206 Honus Wagner card), the offered specimen is head-and-shoulders above nearly all of them in terms of refinement and preservation. Forever compared to the Wagner in terms of rarity, it can be stated definitively that the white-bordered tobacco insert card of Eddie Plank is the second most valuable baseball card in our hobby. Many theories have been advanced in the ongoing effort to explain its scarcity, but none has ever been proven. We do know that approximately the same number of Planks exist as Wagners, and that very few additional specimens of either Hall of Famer seem poised to surface. The offered example delivers outstanding, radiant quality in its blue-backgrounded portrait illustration. Its caption is clear and undisturbed, and its centering reinforces the viewer's overall impressions of satisfaction and awe. Although corners reflect minor evidence of handling befitting the item's grade, they do not for a moment threaten its superior and warm overall aesthetic. This scarcer-backed version of the sought-after card (with a "Sweet Caporal - 350 subjects" advertisement adorning the reverse instead of the more routine "150" variety) boasts wonderful clarity in its back's discreet red inking and perfectly toned surround. This enviable collectible has combined highly appealing visual elements with the merest vestiges of circulation to provide a marvelous entry for a worthy and advanced T206 assembly. This is an exemplary, EX/MT example of the White Border issue's key Plank rarity (with a center illustration of NM character), and a singular card that merits the admiration of an entire memorabilia industry.

Thx Rob.

By any chance, anyone has pics of that rebacked Plank? That card seems to disappear from the hobby since it last sold from Mastro. Just wonder how good was the reback job.

I'm on my phone sitting in a shoe store in Soho in NY right now while my wife is trying on every single pair of shoes in the store (anyone married, you know how it is) so I can't post it now, but pictures can be found in the catalog and also on pricerealized.com. If no one else posts the images I'll post (or send to someone that knows how to post photos!) when I get home to my computer in a few days.

Rob-You better not let her see you posting about her. She's a lot tougher than you are.😀

She's still trying on shoes and talking with the owner! She has no idea. Mums the word.

I may start having my mail forwarded here.

Rob-This isn't the place you are at, is it?

Can't afford that place! She's done so I'm off to next store now...

It's listed in the Plank gallery on T206resource.com. It is Plank number 17.

Here's the Plank that Rob is referring to. I couldn't find any large scans
and they get distorted when you enlarge them so this is the best I could
do.
Attachment 285612Attachment 285613
Attachment 285614Attachment 285615

It has curved edges... well... it could just be the scans.

Anyways, given it was sold at $51k. Even if it gets consign to auction now and listed as re-backed it would still sold for higher than $51k in today's market.

Given the demands/constraints of television I thought it a good show. Would I have liked a more thorough version -- of course. I suspect everyone on who reads this post would have liked a longer, polished, "30-for-30" style version with more names and details and less cliches.

That said I want to thank the people who "made this possible" on the hobby-end.* The most obvious people to thank are Ryan and Jeff and they deserve major kudos. But I'm sure that there are many whose names did not make it into the "final cut" and/or may have no any interest in being publicly known as part of this. They deserve my (our) thanks too. Doing the right thing is its own reward and -- all too often -- its only reward.





___
* Good people with the FBI,US Attorney's Office and the media are also to be commended for their work.

Reads these vids are not available in your area. My area is Canada and that is likely the reason?
Any other CDN's have this issue, and if so, were you able to view them via a different avenue?

I don't know if this solves the problem but I see the extra footage is also posted on YouTube now. I hope this helps! Here are the links:


https://youtu.be/2QeAzcdNRLc

https://youtu.be/niopU2C43ys

https://youtu.be/5XbgTccK_6o

Many may find very interesting to read a copy of Mastro Auctions' mass email first announcing the "Mastro Auctions Code of Professional Conduct."

A cut-and-paste appears below!
*

From: email@mastroauctions.com
To:
Sent: 9/13/2007 8:33:59 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time
Subj: Mastro Auctions Code of Professional Conduct

Dear Valued Customer:

When it comes to business ethics and integrity, Mastro Auctions has operated ever since its inception under the premise that actions speak louder than words. We thought, perhaps naively, that that was enough. I have talked to a lot of customers over the last few months, both at the National Convention and through my travels, and have come to the conclusion that our customers, in fact, expect more.

As the hobby continues to evolve and new concerns plague our industry, the time to assume a proactive stance has arrived. To that end, Mastro Auctions is taking our unwritten code of professional conduct to the next level by enhancing the code and memorializing it in writing (see below). This act of leadership is not required by law or by the industry, but it represents the high standards of commitment and responsibility that Mastro Auctions has always embodied.


Since we just missed our deadline for the October Classic sale to make this announcement, this code will appear in and be in full effect for our December Premium Catalog sale. As always, we greatly value your support and assistance. By working proactively as a team, we can make a difference in the hobby we all enjoy today -- and ensure that it is headed in the right direction for future enthusiasts.

Sincerely yours,


Doug Allen


President & COO

Mastro Auctions

Mastro Auctions Code of Professional Conduct

1. Disclosure of Ownership
Mastro Auctions allows employees, authenticators, the Mastro Auctions corporate entity and other third party affiliates to own and consign items in Mastro Auctions’ sales. Mastro Auctions will disclose in its catalogs which items are owned by any of the aforementioned parties. PLEASE NOTE: The definition of ownership extends to spouses and immediate family members associated with the aforementioned groups.

2. Mastro Auctions Employee Bidding Rules
Certain Mastro Auctions employees are also collectors, and, similar to the practices followed by other major auction houses (e.g. Sotheby’s, Christies, etc.) are permitted to bid in Mastro Auctions sales. The following restrictions have been placed on the bidding practices of employee(s) to ensure fairness for all auction participants:

*Mastro Auctions employees do not have access to ceiling or “top-all” bids. One designated administrative employee will have access to this information for the sole purpose of responding to bidding questions or for correcting bid errors. That designated individual will not be allowed to bid in the auction.*

Mastro Auctions employees, the Mastro Auctions corporate entity, and all third party affiliates (authenticators, service providers, etc.) are considered related parties. These related parties are prohibited from bidding on each other’s consigned items. PLEASE NOTE: The definition of the Mastro Auctions “related parties” extends to family members. 



3. Disclosure of Restoration
If Mastro Auctions believes or has knowledge that an item has been altered in any way, this information will be fully disclosed in the auction catalog. Occasionally, we will have items restored in order to improve their presentation quality. In these cases, the extent and nature of any restoration will be fully disclosed. Under no circumstances will we have restoration work done on trading cards.

4. Trading Card Guidelines
Mastro Auctions prohibits its employees from altering trading cards. Our policy on altering trading cards is in strict compliance with standards set by all major grading companies.

5. Use of Third Party Authenticators
Mastro Auctions is a company of experts. In almost all of the collecting genres handled by the company, there is an employee on staff who specializes in that area. As a result, before an item ever reaches a third party authenticator, it must first pass our scrutiny. Once an item that requires third party authentication has been accepted by Mastro Auctions, the following process will be employed: for each auction, the catalog will identify approved third party authenticating sources by category. We will not sell an item unless it has been authenticated by one of the listed third party authenticators. **

6. Bidding Records
Effective for auctions held in 2007, all Mastro Auctions bidding records are maintained into perpetuity. These records are considered private and confidential. In order to maintain the privacy of our customers’ information, these records will not be voluntarily shared with any third parties.

This e-mail was sent from an information only e-mail address and cannot receive incoming messages. Please send e-mail to CustomerService@mastroauctions.com.

Indeed.

If Mastro Auctions believes or has knowledge that an item has been altered in any way, this information will be fully disclosed in the auction catalog. Occasionally, we will have items restored in order to improve their presentation quality. In these cases, the extent and nature of any restoration will be fully disclosed. Under no circumstances will we have restoration work done on trading cards.

Wasn't Mastro Auction tried to be become a public company at one time??? Mastro and his team would have been in much longer jail time. They were "lucky" they didn't make it to a public company.. :)

Just watched last night. Big kudos to Ryan and Jeff. Would have liked to have heard more about the actual investigation and whether there was any restitution for those who were defrauded. I don't know enough about the details of the sentencing. I seem to recall that Mastro ratted out Allen to get a reduced sentence.

There was no restitution that I am aware of.

Those worked.

Thank you, Robert. :)

Yes that is true. Sometime in the late 1990s to early to mid 2000's ( I can't remember exactly ) Mastro announced in a special mailing to preferred customers that they were going public in the essence of selling shares in their company but it was never going to be a publicly "listed" company . The share purchase option and contract was offered by invitation only to"substantial clients " who spent a minimum amount of money in their auctions or to substantial consignors to their auctions. It was an "Exclusive Offering to preferred clients". The shares were going to be for the company in a private manner to allow Mastro to become bigger and actually purchase items to auction. As I recall shares were at least $1000 each and a minimum number of share purchases were required to begin and no dividends were paid and your shares had no voting rights and no reinvestment option and had a minimum hold period , that is they could not be bought or sold openly at any time , only when Mastro would offer a buy back or a purchase announcement .
Looking back I wonder if he was going to ponzi those investors, but the idea never gained momentum because the investor had all the risk but very little upside except to what Mastro would allow as far as appreciation of your shares and of course the initial purchase price.
If someone else remembers more about this or more correctly then please feel free to correct me.

Bill Mastro had to pay a fine. No restitution. It would have been a logistical nightmare to try to figure out actual losses and come up with an amount to be paid. But I'm sure now that he is out of prison and has had a spiritual awakening, he is working hard crunching the numbers to figure out how much he stole so he can pay it back and make things right. Look for your checks as soon as GAI opens on Monday.

-Ryan

After watching the American Greed episode a second time, one thing that jumped out at me was the repeated statement that Mastro Auctions made over $200,000,000.00 in gross sales and then later filed for bankruptcy in 2009 when the Feds started breathing down their necks and making them record all auction bids thus causing the sales to plummet. If they were taking 15% buyers and 15% sellers fees, plus making profits on re-sold items, ie the Evers Lot and other items owned by Mastro, then Mastro Auctions was netting at least $60,000,000 over that duration. Obviously there was some overhead, taxes and employees salaries, but clearly a substantial portion must of gone into Bill Mastro's and Doug Allen's pockets.

Was there any financial accountability of those two during the investigation, trial or sentencing for seizing assets or were they found to be conveniently broke? As Ryan Christoff wisely noted in the closing of the program, the punishment didn't appear to fit the crime.

Most hobby criminals go scot free, so I think credit should be given even if the sentence was less than some would have liked to see.

I wondered the same thing about how in the world they went bankrupt. Unfortunately, what most people and many companies do, is as more $$ come in, they spend more and more, often in stupid ways.

To your last question, the company could easily have "gone bankrupt" while the people that ran it got rich. That's the protection of incorporating. If the business goes bad, you aren't personally liable. So they may have paid themselves into bankruptcy, whether intentional or not, only they would know.

I agree with your assessment that people can either squander their profits, overpay themselves (and sometimes hide the money from creditors), or make just bad business decisions and drive the corporation into bankruptcy. Mastro Auctions had very little downside to their business, so I see it as the first two options. Also, when fraud occurs courts can "pierce the corporate veil" and go after individuals or "alter egos" (individuals who use a business identities designed for perpetrating fraud). I'm actually surprised nobody has sued Mastro or Allen after all of this - or have they?

They actually have been sued and with some degree of success. I know of two civil lawsuits filed against Mastro Auctions since they ceased operating (though there may be others). Both lawsuits were also filed against Bill Mastro and Doug Allen personally. Both lawsuits were settled to the satisfaction of the parties claiming to have been damaged by Mastro Auctions.

One lawsuit was filed in February 2014 by Dr. Howard Rosing (a very longtime advanced collector and true gentleman).

Below is a link to an article about the Howard Rosing vs Mastro et al lawsuit. The lawsuit was settled very quickly. Because a confidentiality agreement was signed, Dr. Rosing was not at liberty to tell me the details of the settlement, only that it occurred, and that he was very pleased.

The complaint involved four single-signed baseballs that Rosing purchased from Mastro Auctions between 1998 and 2001 for a total of $134,000. According to the complaint, "Rosing has since learned that the four baseballs are in fact counterfeit" and his $130,000+ in damages were "caused by Defendants' fraud and/or negligence." The four single-signed balls were: Mickey Welch ($20,217), Jack Chesbro ($20,898), Frank Chance ($21,836),and Henry Chadwick ($61,251). Extremely interesting note that is not mentioned in the following article or the text of the Rosing complaint: the Henry Chadwick single-signed ball was consigned by Peter Nash. And the Mickey Welch single-signed ball also originated from (that is, was previously sold at auction two years earlier by)....Peter Nash.

Article Link:

https://www.sportscollectorsdaily.co...ned-baseballs/

In June 2009 when Mastro Auctions sued Dave Forman for $400,000, Dave Foreman countersued for damages relating to various issues including shill bidding. The countersuit prepared by Dave Forman's brilliant attorney in the case (Jeffrey Lichtman) was extremely detailed and devastating. Instead of collecting $400,000 FROM Forman (who did not dispute having an unpaid auction balance, but did dispute the exact amount), Mastro Auctions not only dropped and completely abandoned their entire claim against Forman (lowering the $400,000 to $0) but also returned over $100,000 in cards to Forman that he believed were owed to him, and, in addition, Forman actually received a payment of $3600 in the settlement. (Hard not to say "wow" to that complete turnaround).

Links:

https://www.sportscollectorsdaily.com/a-fine-mess/

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/ba...ticle-1.428887

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/mo...e_desktop=true


https://www.google.com/amp/www.nydai...ticle-1.121333

does anyone know if and when this will air again...hopefully this week. I have access to cable this week!!!!!

It's on demand if you look it up

Expenses
 

Dan, you would be astounded to learn how much exacto knives, hair dryers, power erasers, bleach and Toluene cost these days. It really adds up! :D

Frank, funny, but my guess is most of the work was done by outside contractors.

Gone with the stain
 

Peter, do you think Dick Towle was a sub-contractor?

I recall at one point Graphic Restorations in Chicago was doing work for them although I don't know the scope, for all I know it could have been legit and disclosed work. From the indictment I recall Doug sent the Plank to California to be rebacked, I can guess who did that but not sure. I have no idea who else they might have used, there are a number of possibilities.

Doug's plea agreement, Mastro indictment and shill bidder list. Some funny stuff here. Getting mentioned in all three is an achievement only those on the Mt. Rushmore of hobby degenerates can claim.


http://www.arkansasbusiness.com/publ...astro-Case.pdf

https://www.justice.gov/archive/usao...pr0725_01a.pdf

http://haulsofshame.com/blog/wp-cont...l-bid-list.pdf

Pete, It will be on tomorrow morning (Monday 9-4) from 9:00-10:00 AM Eastern time on CNBC.

That's quite the list! :eek:

Thanks for posting these up, Jeff.

Thank you so much for the heads up...im technology averse! If i cant access it on demand tonight ill be sure to watch tomorrow am. Popcorn for breakfast?

After watching I agree with many of the sentiment here...nice job Jeff L, Ryan C.

The constant repeating of the same pics and video footage of Mastro, and random hands flipping through 75 topps commons, the dramatic baseball innuendos...is typical...annoying reality tv.

I don't think as hard core as many of us are here we'd ever be satisfied with a production geared for the common non collecting folk. It was fine for what it was/is.

I'm happy that a couple people sued and received restitution. These were big players with large losses. However, it is wrong that others, myself included, will never receive a penny from Mastro et al. The vast majority of people on the shill bidding list were not cheated out of large sums of money. How are they made whole in this case?

Might the term "class action" be applicable to the Mastro situation?

They're not. You can blame the Chicago prosecutors for not going after Mastro's money. I sued them once, threatened to sue them a second time, and got two good amounts of money from them. If not for SA Brian Brusokas, there would never even have been charges filed in this case -- the prosecutors had to be literally dragged kicking and screaming to the grand jury.

That being said, Bill did find God if we all recall and I'm certain he's busy totaling up all the money he stole from his good hobby friends and checks will soon be in the mail.

I guess the trick is finding an attorney willing to go after Mastro in a low dollar suit or, possibly, gather a group of victims to be represented by one attorney.

Why was that, Jeff? Was there bigger fish to fry or more important (in their eyes) cases to go after?

Like you said, thank god SA, Brian Brusokas pursued this and is still actively try to help protect us collectors. :)
https://www.fbi.gov/contact-us/field...ts-memorabilia

Edit: Sorry, Jeff, I didn't mean to omit you as I also know you had a huge part in this as well. Thanks again for all you did!

As a buyer, I don't feel obligated telling the seller I think they priced their item too low no matter what their lot in life is (dealer, garage sale dude, hobbyist...). Sellers should do their research. Even pre-internet everyone knew baseball cards could be valuable. One trip to the local bookstore and a few hours of research is all the garage sale dude needed to do. Don't we all dream of "the find" and getting a killer deal on it?

Respectfully,
Scott

[QUOTE=spaidly;1698588]As a buyer, I don't feel obligated telling the seller I think they priced their item too low no matter what their lot in life is (dealer, garage sale dude, hobbyist...). Sellers should do their research. Even pre-internet everyone knew baseball cards could be valuable. One trip to the local bookstore and a few hours of research is all the garage sale dude needed to do. Don't we all dream of "the find" and getting a killer deal on it?

Respectfully,
Scott[/QUOTE

Karma can be a bitch.

[QUOTE=Mdmtx;1698592]+ many.

Not all of us are looking to take advantage the elderly.

Always 2 points of view. I am with the other guys on this one. If you are elderly you should know to do a little homework. I am almost elderly .....if I short sell something then it's no ones fault but my own. I don't believe the Gypsy story about the Carter collection either. That whole situation was just wrong, in looking at it with all of the facts known in the other scams.

On another point, I heard Mastro is putting those restitution checks in the mail soon. Just don't hold your breath....

I see both sides. My parents live in a classic Florida retirement community. Just for fun I have considered putting an ad in a local paper classifieds looking to buy vintage baseball cards. Typically down there the husband kicks the bucket and the wife sells off his stuff. It would be amazing to walk in on some amazing shoebox in the closet, but the temptation to take advantage of some elderly widow -- who really isn't in a position to do a lot of research -- would be strong. How do you fairly tell someone what their cards are worth? I'm sure I could come up with all sorts of numbers. I really don't want to go there as they say. Someone wants my help I will send them to Al or someone else.

So you're OK with all the scammers who prey on the elderly in real estate etc.?

http://www.miamiherald.com/living/article1951047.html

That was a stupid question. No. Are you?

I didn't think so, then what's the difference?

I think it is deplorable when the elderly get scammed.
What I was referring to is when doing a card deal and I use my thousands of hours of expertise to get a good deal. Why am I not allowed to do that but lawyers use their expertise to charge hundreds of dollars (or more) an hour? Just because my knowledge isn't from formal educating (in this area) doesn't mean it's less valuable. I think using one's expertise is the way to get ahead. And that doesn't mean I have to scam to do it.

OK perhaps I read too much into your statement about how the elderly should do their homework.

I do not feel bad for the two separate ebay sellers who about 10 years ago offered as BIN a SGC 88 63 Rose for $800 and the other a PSA 8 68 Ryan RC also for $800. Ironically, it appears that both sellers did do their research.....the current price guides at the time had a "high" price listed for each of these cards at $800 which is my guess why they listed at the price they did. Unfortunately, neither of these sellers reviewed completed sales on ebay , which at the time, were about twice what I paid for each card.

Again, I do not feel bad, and likely neither would have the next buyer who would have gladly bought either of these cards within minutes of me (and of the original listing).

My guess is that each of these sellers were both glad that their items sold as quick as they did, much like the garage sale seller in the show.

I knew a lawyer down south who represented an oil and gas company that would offer indigent people money for their properties, without disclosing that hours of research revealed that there were valuable gas or mineral deposits that could be sucked out of their land. Ring the doorbell with a check book in hand. Were the people happy with the deal? Probably. Were they taken advantage of? Probably. Should a buyer have to disclose significant facts not known to the seller? Grey area in a lot of ways.
I think there is a huge difference between getting a good deal and royally screwing someone.

A good deal is fine. Paying 1% is another matter.

LOL....yeah, that is a bit steep. I think I pay about 50% and feel it's a good deal....then I go to sell and lose 5%....

And back to the original topic - I wish more authorities would get involved in the fraud in our hobby. As has been said many times, we are fortunate to have SA Brusokas in the hobby. Hopefully he will be assigned to it permanently. :)

.

I agree with this and that karma is a bitch. I also believe if both parties in a deal are happy then a good deal went down. Like so much in life, nothing is black and white. We live in the grey and each of us must decide where they are comfy.

Scott

Agreed. The buyer, who appears to be an expert, seems to have taken advantage of the seller, who either did or did not do their homework or enough homework. We have no idea what the buyer also would have said to the seller for them to agree to $500 for the collection but at the very least if there is gross inadequacy of consideration if the collection turned out to be worth 50K.

As a dealer I have been in a position many times to "use my expertise" to get a fantastic deal but in all instances I provided substantiation of market value to the sellers so they could make a truly informed decision on the value of what they were selling.

Scammer
 

Yes, in my case you and Moser "used your expertise" to trim and varnish thousands of dollars worth of cards which you then sold to me and never paid a penny in restitution!

I don't know at exactly what percentage of the value I would draw the line between getting a good deal and ripping someone off. But I do find it almost laughably ironic that the buyer then turns around and complains about getting cheated. :rolleyes:

I hate it when that happens.
And you need your full name out there, Frank. Thanks....