Some thoughts without mentioning company names so I don’t get in trouble:

-the sniping service I use is authorized by eBay - about a year or so ago, I had to reregister with them as they are now an “eBay service” so I had to agree to let them place bids for me - if eBay was trying to prevent sniping, they wouldn't allow these services. I'm surprised how many savvy eBay buyers are out there - I've bid on mundane (non collectables) stuff like old gaming systems - not super old (Wii and PS3) and all the real bidding still takes place at the end

-eBay bidding history is pretty transparent, so its not hard to look at schilling on a case by case basis. Sometimes if I win a card I want, I don’t look at the history - it doesn’t do much good to see the underbidder has 0 feedback and 96% with the same seller.

-When I do look, I believe I have seen cases where the schillers were brazen enough to snipe. It doesn’t make it right to call it a “hidden reserve”. According to the rules I’m bidding under, there is no reserve, so if a card sells lower than I’m willing to pay - I’m supposed to get the benefit of that "saving" - its fraud if I'm cheated out of that.

-I suspect if the schillers do successfully win a snipe, they don't pay which I think is unique to eBay because I think for auction houses, the bid is binding. Why can't eBay do that? Why is it so easy to get out of paying? If it wasn't, it may cut down on shady behavior.

-I had a eBay seller once tell me that they can’t block “new bidders”. I can see that for small time sellers, but for the larger sellers, you would think requiring a minimum feedback would at least discourage “small time” schilling

Cards are not fungible. The 4SC 9 may have been more obviously defective than the PWCC card.

However, I do agree with the first part of your post. Shilling isn't a viable business model. If you guys are so convinced that they shill and push the value of the auctions artificially high, then the answer is simple. Buy from somewhere else and then consign your cards with PCCC to exploit what you think is their unfair advantage.

Exactly. I both buy from and sell with PWCC. I set my buy price at my comfort level and forget about it. With selling, most of the cards sell for what I expect. However, you do get a few outliers both high and low. It's the nature of the auction format, the fact that these cards aren't a commodity, and a myriad of other factors.

4SC cards are often priced low …. and are BUY IT NOWS (like most everything)

PWCC are true auctions, which is rare nowadays. PWCC always auctions great stuff - so of course the bid percentage is very high with them as they are one of the only games in town

Not defending them, but like many, will continue to buy from them

Bid percentage isn't the best indication of foul play. I am sure I have a really high bid percentage with Greg Morris. I'll buy starter lots from the 50's and 60's and then at some point I need to start buying singles. They do so many set breaks of the years in my wheelhouse I could place 2-3 bids on 30-40 items in one night maybe win 10-15 of them. I always go this route because buying singles from multiple sources creates way too many shipping charges. Their format is perfect for what I am doing.

But then look at my bid retractions and I've never had a single one.

I buy from plenty of other sellers but when I am on a GM run I bid a lot in a short period of time.

For me, the best sign to avoid an auction is when it runs up to 80 or 90 percent right out of the gate. That suggests to me people are probably running up their own, or at least it seems like a good possiblity. It NEVER happens when I list cards. Usually stuff is below 50 percent with a day to go or even an hour to go. It rarely happens with certain sellers I trust and know.

Exactly...I have sold cards that are like at 10-20% with an hour to go. It's scary....but at least my concious is clear.

Haha! Yeah, no matter how many times that happens, I still sit there biting my nails and hitting refresh.

I have bought many things from PWCC and never had any issues. I pay what I think something is worth. If I get outbid, oh well. They also happen to be somewhat local, so I know anything I win won't take long to arrive and doesn't have far to travel.

Do you enjoy the 4SC and PWCC office Christmas parties?

:d:d:d

never invited …. oh well

but a small percentage of my collection comes from PWCC, and probably close to half of my 80s to 90s slabs come from 4SC


I think for myself, set numbers in my head, and don't whine like a bitch about either company ….

On most "commodity" cards from the 70s and up 4SC's BIN prices are usually at the more reasonable end of the scale and often the lowest. And you can buy for 10 percent less than that usually off their website. They've been a good resource as I expanded my rookie card runs.

Sometimes when I really want to win a card, I will bid high right at the start in hopes of discouraging others from getting in on it. Idk if it works, but I’ve done it, even with pwcc. In fact, one time I bid so high with my first bid that the auction house (not an eBay seller) called and asked if I made a mistake. Lol.

Jeff

Twelve years later and people still think it's ok if an auction house shills you as long as you pay the price you wanted for the card.

And lawyers saying committing fraud is no big deal? It's the times we live in. Selective angst is I believe what it is called.

Jeff, no doubt some of the high bidding out of the gate is legit. But when I see the same patterns over and over again that I don't see with other sellers -- especially combined with the string bidding -- I just prefer to stay away and focus on auctions that behave more normally. As many PWCC auctions do, I should add. There are very few cards on ebay that can't be found again, either the next week or worst case with a little patience.

How many times is the same card relisted by these "consignment companies" until the desired price is obtained? I sometimes get a good laugh looking at vcp and see the last 3 or 4 sales of the same card, from the same seller. They should offer the option to send it to the "other" one if the desired price is not met.

2 Ebayers that were blantenty shilled, who subsequently didnt pay, were blocked immediately from further auctions.

Selective blocking?

What auction house is aware of your max bid price?

you may be the only one who find this funny! you and maybe jerry seinfeld who loves to overpay for things.

It wasn’t a max bid. It was a straight bid. The opening bid was like $5,000 but I bid a straight bid of $25000. It was a card that would likely end around there that I really wanted to win. Didn’t end up winning though.

Jeff

A couple months ago I listed a PSA1.5 #149 Ruth on the BST for $1800 shipped. Didn't get a single PM on it. Sent it to PWCC to sell for me and it ended around $2300 or so and I ended up getting about $2100 from PWCC. No shilling was involved.

His story referenced that he big strong and early, not that he overpayed.

I stand corrected sam

yeah, yikes

OMG a hobby vet that doesn't snipe for every bid they place. LOL

What is wrong with you??? Haha

I have done this many times with great results. I take heat every time I say it but the most risky bid of all is the nuclear snipe because everyone is hip to the idea that the most serious bids generally come at the end and so consignors can more easily fit in with a final snipe bid to protect their item.

On a side note I was typing this first part up and took a call from a client and we ended up discussing an EBAY item he wanted to win and he said I might just bid right now and try and bomb them into submission before the end. Haha.

Yep! It's just my way of trying to narrow the bidding pool. If someone sees the item already has a high bid, they may be more likely to pass on by. But if they see a bargain, they'll likely bid or set a snipe (if its eBay).

I've done this with an AH that allows bidding to jump to specific levels. IMO there are certain price points that if you occupy that level it can discourage additional bidding. I've found that to be especially true when the bid increments change as the price goes up. I am not sure how well that works with eBay since you can't jump levels. Besides, I just get too annoyed watching the weevils bore away at my maximum price if I go all-in on eBay with an early bid. I'd rather snipe what I want to spend and take my chances. FWIW, I would never leave a scorched earth bid with PWCC, even on a snipe, due to all of the shilling allegations and activity reported on this and other boards.

Oh, and just so I won't get criticized for not condemning shilling: shilling sucks and shill bidders should be castrated with dull butter knives dipped in battery acid.

I only use one Ebay ID and it is very easy to figure out who people are based on the feedback number and so if they realize it is someone serious that can help too.

I don't think it's ok for major auction houses to shill. But again, I can always vote with my wallet. I don't feel like I've had any of my PWCC purchases artificially inflated. Maybe I'm not bidding on the super high-dollar stuff either.

So, my question is.....if a company is obviously shilling, is the purpose of this thread to:

1. inform members to be careful when bidding on items from PWCC
2. put a sour taste in everyone's mouth about PWCC to eliminate some of the competition
3. hope someone feels empowered enough and thinks there's a case to actually go after PWCC directly

Not trying to stir the pot. I'm just curious at what point we write off all companies due to a post that ends up getting smeared all over the board. Are there any reputable auction houses that haven't had any questionable transactions?

I definitely put in large opening bids to reduce my competition on lots I really want with the AHs that allow you to put in a straight bid. To me it is simply a strategy to eliminate people who might be looking for a bargain or where it might not be their top priority.

As a side question, with the AHs that do not allow you to put in straight bids (Heritage, REA for instance), would you consider it unethical to have a friend (not the consignor!) who has no desire to win the lot, bid you up on purpose to in essence make your bid a straight bid?

DJ

So in essence, you'd be shilling your own bid to a price that you're willing to pay? IE bidding against yourself in an auction? LOL. I think that's perfectly fine.

I can understand as a practical matter wanting to lock up a bid level given the way AH increments work. I am not understanding the psychology of thinking you're scaring someone off a card, like a dog marking his territory. I could see the opposite effect -- someone interested in a card sees high early prices and thinks he's underestimated the value and becomes willing to bid more.

Told before but, a long time ago, in a public/private auction I bid 8k straight as the first bid (*or the 2nd I forget) and the opening bid was 1k. That was about the first or second day of the auction as I recall. I won this lot for my 8k plus juice and was happy. They were sold with my first collection sale.

http://luckeycards.com/pe94overprintset3.jpg

"You're."

It might work for a card that is auctioned off frequently such as 50s-60s Topps. Say a card sells in the 400-500 range. Place a bid that would have to be topped by a bid over 500 and hope people will just wait until the next one shows up in a couple weeks.

Yes, but to me that's just locking up the level above which it's not practical to go higher, psychology has nothing to do with it.

Funny. I would argue psychology has everything to do with it. As a marketer, though, I believe most non-essential purchases are driven by emotion, not practicality.

That said, I don't think we disagree on the principle, but our semantics seem to be driven by our respective professions. ;)