I think I may have an idea of what you are going to say, but I'd like to hear if I am close or right on a couple things. PM away.

You wouldn't really need another independent group to check on the TPG companies. As long as they all followed the same, consistent set of standards and rules as far as grading cards goes, they could just check on each other every so often to make sure they're all doing it the same, correct way. If they found one of their peer TPG companies wasn't abiding by the rules and following the proper, consistent and recognized grading standards, they could let whoever/whatever group that had licensing control/authority over TPG companies know and possibly have them stop that TPG company from being able continue grading cards until they corrected whatever the issues were that were found.

As for the comment about regulations though, and the freedom from them, I'm against more regulations as much as anyone else. However, in this case the "regulations" aren't there for the benefit or detriment of the TPG companies, they would be in place to protect you and I as collectors to try to insure that these TPG companies are doing a fair and honest job of evaluating, authenticating and grading cards, that they are applying consistent, recognized standards in so doing and, that they are independent and unbiased in their work. At least as far as I am concerned, they should be.

The TPG companies don't have anyone really watching them. They can do what they want. That is why we still occasionally see some of these off-the-wall graded cards from some supposed TPG company that no one has ever heard of showing up for sale every now and then. You or I could start our own grading company tomorrow if we wanted to, and it is perfectly fine and legal. Now, you're likely not going to get many people trusting you and your grading, at least amongst the type of collectors that frequent this site but, if you're selling at a flea market or on Ebay and some unsuspecting collecting newbie that doesn't know any better takes a chance, you've done nothing legally wrong. And there is the gist of the problem, anybody can really do or say whatever they want, without much consequence.

Think about it.....all these people working at these TPG companies doing the grading, exactly how and where did they learn to do it, and what makes them any more qualified than you or I?

Are there any institutions or schools that teach about such grading and authentication out there, or have specified curriculum or degrees available for someone who wants to learn more or get into this type of field? No, right? So what qualifies any of the existing TPG companies to be able to decide on their own who can and can't do this work, and how they should be trained and what rules and standards they follow?

And unless there is only one person doing all the grading at each of the TPG companies out there, how do they get their graders to be consistent and uniform in their evaluation and grading process? They must have some internal set of rules/conditions/standards they provide and require their graders to follow and adhere to then, right? And if that is the case, I would think you should be able to ask any of the TPG companies for a definitive, list or schedule of the standards and criteria they require their graders to follow and adhere to so as to determine specifically what makes a card get a grade of 1, or a 4, or a 6.5 or a 40 or an 88, etc. Every single card they grade should be put through a similar, consistent process. There should probably a specified checklist for each and every card to make sure a grader looked at all the applicable things they need to look at and evaluate the card for. And just like each graded card has its own cert #, each graded card should also have its own documentation as to how the evaluation and grade was arrived at, and should be retained by the TPG company so as to document what they did and how they arrived at the opinion that they did on a particular card. I honestly don't know anything about the inner workings of TPG companies. Do they already do these kinds of things I'm suggesting they should do? And if not, why not?

BobC

LOL. That would go over well! :eek:
I can picture a steady stream of TPG's arriving at each others places of business daily all crying afoul about what each company isn't doing that they should be! It would be a gong show, guaranteed!!

I like your second suggestion as I have always thought it would be nice to find out why your card got the grade it did.
I believe Beckett has quit doing this, but they use to have scores/grades on their flips that would state something like 8 for centering, 9 for corners, 7 for surface wear etc, then the final average grade in the top right. I believe most on here like this but for some reason Beckett was the only one who did this for some reason?

Beckett has sub-grades on their modern cards and has specific rules for the overall grade in relation to the individual sub-grades.

The fact that PSA and SGC do not do so on any of their products leads me to believe they have something to hide. Giving a card a specific grade without explaining why exactly it got that makes no sense. It's a "Where's Waldo" on the flaw(s) of each card vs. BGS you know exactly what's wrong with the card, if anything.

I have harped on them constantly of revising and publishing a separate set of grading standards for vintage cards AND putting sub-grades back onto their vintage cards. It boggles my mind why you wouldn't do this and I believe in a short amount of time that could boost their vintage submissions AND give them better credibility in the vintage market.

Irv,

That would be funny but, it wouldn't be a steady stream like that. For example, CPAs, like most of the professions, are licensed and under a state by state authority. To maintain my license in Ohio, where I live, every three years I have to file for a renewal and also report that I have fulfilled the minimum requirement of completing at least 120 hours of continuing professional education, including at least 3 hours on professional ethics, during that three year period since my previous license renewal.

To even become a CPA in Ohio, you now have to have a minimum of 150 hours of secondary (college) education in an applicable major involving accounting. You must then sit through and pass a multi-part, standardized test put together under the auspices of the AICPA (American Institute of Certified Public Accountants), the national group that oversees and promulgates the standardized rules and practices that CPAs go by. This CPA exam is now done via computer and involves a minimum of four different sessions, and trust me, these aren't half-hour or 45 minute tests. Back in the day when I originally took the CPA exam, before all the computers, the standardized test was only offered twice each year, the first Wednesday, Thursday and Friday of every May and November. In Ohio, at that time, everyone in the state traveled down to Columbus, Ohio and went to one of the massive exhibit buildings on the Ohio State Fairgrounds. It was in one huge room with nothing when you walked in but a sea of tables, each with two chairs all facing forward, and a block of wood in the middle of the table with a piece of cardboard stuck in it to supposedly keep the other person sitting at your table from looking over at your paper and answers, and vice versa.

Back then, the exact same test was given to every single person taking the CPA exam in the U.S., at the exact same date and time. There was an afternoon session on Wednesday, followed by separate morning and afternoon sessions on Thursday and Friday. And these sessions were each like 3+ hours. There were about 2,000 people taking the test in Columbus at the same time I was. There were proctors all over the place watching you, and you weren't allowed to leave the main room (other than a bathroom break where you were also watched) until the people taking the test on the West coast were similarly locked in their test center and had begun the exam. That way, because of the different time zones, they didn't have someone go into the test in say Ohio, check out the questions and then just leave early to then run to a phone to call someone out in California and tell them what was on the test so they had time to look up answers real quick before they started the exam out there. The five different sessions covered four separate sections of testing, and you had to pass all four parts to complete the exam. You used no. 2 pencils and paper, no calculators, no computers, no cell phones, no nothing. If you didn't pass all four parts the first time you sat for the exam, you had to wait six months for the next round of tests to be given to try and then pass the parts you had missed. Oh, and the average pass rate for all four parts for someone taking the CPA exam for the very first time was something like 5% or less, at best. Then assuming you finally got lucky and had passed all four parts, you still weren't a CPA in Ohio till you had completed a minimum of two years of accounting related work experience, then completed and filed your application with the Accountancy Board of Ohio, and included along with that at least two (I think it was two) references from already registered CPAs in the state vouching for you and your application. Only then did you get a CPA license.

And that is just for each individual CPA. Each CPA or CPA firm that then forms a practice must also register that practice with the Accountancy Board of Ohio. And if in that practice the CPA or the CPA firm then performs any attest functions and issues opinions on any financials or other such information, they are also required every three years to have what is known as a peer review performed whereby a licensed, registered peer reviewer, who is also a CPA, comes in to review the CPA firm's practices, interview their people, look at their controls and requirements in place for performing the work they do for the public, and also selecting on a test basis, a sample of every type of attest function they performed in the current preceding year. Those selected engagements are then reviewed by the peer reviewer and/or peer review team and they look to see that the engagements are performed in conformity with firm's and the AICPA's rules and practices, and most importantly in accordance with GAAP ( Generally Accepted Accounting Principles). If the peer reviewers find errors and deficiencies in the work done, there can be various levels of actions prescribed and taken, depending on the quantity and severity of errors found. The worst case scenario is that a CPA or CPA firm can have their practice license revoked, and no longer be able to offer their opinions on financial statements. And to add insult to injury, the CPA or CPA firm being peer reviewed also has to pay the peer reviewer for coming in and subjecting them to the testing, at their normal, standard rates.

And people may wonder why I think like I do and question why a TPG company giving an opinion on graded cards should be doing a whole lot more than they do now to ensure they are fairly, properly and consistently doing their job in providing card evaluation and grading services, and also do so by utilizing a universally standardized, consistent and agreed upon set of grading measurements and criteria.

BobC

I didn't realize they were still doing it with modern. I thought it fell to the way side?

I agree with the second bold. I think most people want to know, like me, why their card received the grade it did.

I guess I misunderstood you in your first post, Bob? I thought you were referring that the 3 current TPG's self manage/oversee each others business's, not that a 4th, unbiased person(s) do that.

There is quite a bit to what you do and have to do, but personally, I don't ever see that happening in this hobby. It would be nice, at least to some extent, but I don't imagine any of that comes cheap, nor would it be readily accepted by the TPG's, nor the big players in this hobby who would have a say.

They have introduced a overall single grade only service for their modern cards for a reduced price vs. having the sub-grades put on it.

Kind of pointless to me, but whatever.

I'm glad someone else sees things the way I do in regards to this.

2 questions
 

1st question - If these companies guarantee their grades, what happens if I send in a card and it grades a 2, and later on I sell the card and someone else sends it in and it grades a 7, shouldn't I be compensated for the difference in value because it was graded too low to begin with? I am pretty much just joking, but it is an interesting concept.

2nd question - PSA's Collectors Club requires an annual fee. Is SGC's Gold Club fee an annual fee or just a one time fee? I can't find the info on their website.

Rick

It is a yearly subscription.

Irv,

The CPA profession more or less self-regulates. Some CPAs take additional training and so on and become peer reviewers, along with everything else they normally do. A CPA firm can then engage any qualified, registered peer reviewer to come in and go over their work and practices and report the results to state accountancy boards for them every third year, as required by the profession. Oh, and the firm that hired the peer reviewer also has to pay them at their standard hourly rates for the work they do. Talk about adding insult to injury, huh?

I actually happen to be a registered CPA peer reviewer myself, which is probably another reason I may be a little more sensitive to the idea of peer review and adherence to standards and independence by someone giving their opinion on something, like TPG companies do. However, for the record, I am only qualified and registered to perform peer reviews on a particular type of specialized audit on Service Organization Controls (fka SAS-70 audits for anyone who may have a clue what I'm talking about.) When some CPA firm that performs one of these kinds of special audits hires a peer reviewer to come in and check them over, unless he/she has this specialized expertise, he/she ends up calling someone like me to join his peer review team and look over just that particular type of audit.

To put it into perspective, assuming TPG companies also had peer reviews performed, let's say you worked for PSA and were hired and asked to go in and perform a peer review on SGC. Well, SGC will review and grade S-74 silks, whereas PSA does not. So working at PSA you probably wouldn't know much about how the silks are graded and evaluated, so how could you be expected to review someone else grading them then? Answer, you'd call someone who is knowledgeable about S-74 silks and their grading and have them join your peer review team just to look at and report solely on the silk grading process of SGC. Makes sense, huh?

BobC

Bob- No offense, but at the risk of having to read an essay, what is your opinion? (abbreviated form)

This is a primary example of why SGC raising the grading prices makes no sense. In August a PSA graded 5 sold for 143K by Heritage. Last night the SGC 60, which I think was slightly nicer, failed to make the reserve at 90K (108K out the door). If the PSA 5 was a real sale, this one certainly had no reason to under perform. Unfortunately this is not an isolated example.

I was unaware of the history but I personally thought the $90,000 Reserve, boldly displayed, might of had something to do with that?

Not that it's a given, but I have noticed that before. Cards with reserves or BINS sometimes get zero hits/bids, but once the reserve or BIN is removed, the cards sell for close or even over the bins and reserve.
Just a few of my observations anyways.

The PSA 5 had a reserve as well when it sold in Aug. Not uncommon for Heritage to use reserves. Reserves in their auctions are not displayed until a couple days before the closing night of the auction.

I could be wrong, but when I was looking last night, I thought I noticed "0" bids?

Maybe, if there were any, they were removed once the reserve was posted up? :confused:

Sorry, tough day at work. The TPG companies should be more consistent and transparent, and all I really need to know is if it is fake or authentic, I can figure out the shape and condition of the card myself. And grading standards should be just that, standards, recognized and followed by everybody, that are set by the collecting community and what they want, not what the TPG companies set and want us to follow.

BobC

I will be sending them around 25-30 cards in the next day or two to get in on the older pricing. I had the rest of my collection graded by SGC when I sold it and had started using them from day one, for many reasons. Now they advertise here too so it's a double reason....but they are my grader of choice because of their consistency and the way their holders look. And since I have almost exclusively collected pre-war it has worked out nicely on the valuations too. I don't play in the stratosphere of the rich and famous and my cards have done nicely in their holders, overall.

Posting more out of frustration as a holder of MANY SGC graded cards but here is another example of the disparity in value grade for grade between PSA and SGC when there is no justification for it based on the card's condition. Pretty clear that Dave Forman took SGC the wrong way as the difference in prices on like kind cards have never been greater.

SGC ending tonight in Heritage (not my card) and is sitting at 50K out the door.
PSA example is in Mile High and sitting at 102K out the door with 11 plus days to go. No insult intended to the consignor or bidders but the 7 is not as nice as the 84.

Maybe focusing on increasing the value of the brand name would make more sense than increasing the cost of grading.

I think everyone pretty much values SGC 8s close to a PSA 7.5 on equal type cards. The issue would be if you knew you could submit a card to SGC and get an 8 versus a psa 7 then submitting the card would make sense to SGC in the resell market

i

The writing has been on the wall for years that the price differential was just going to keep widening. Obviously there is a ton of hate on this board for PSA but lets face it they have done a tremendous job of building their brand. They constantly come out with new features and upgrades to their process. The online submission form is a tremendous improvement. The new holder is the toughest holder to crack of any of the big three. You constantly see them cited when sports memorabilia is mentioned. The holding company has done extremely well and they are in a great financial position. They don't snub their nose at non sports cards as inferior and instead embrace them and capture new markets. When I started looking into getting cards graded myself in 2010 I did a lot of research and it was clear then and obviously even more clear now that PSA was dominating. They are the leader and it isn't even debatable. Almost all of the highest priced cards have sold in PSA holders. This alone is something that is virtually impossible to compete with. The fact that they aren't standing still a top of the mountain and instead are working hard to keep climbing makes it impossible for another grader to catch them. SGC has somewhere between 1.5% to 3% of the market share for new cards being graded. If you remove personal preference and just look at the data no one would be surprised by what has happened. Instead because of position bias some are left scratching their heads. This trend is not over and if anything will continue. I went to the National in 2013 and the line was very long to get in to see PSA. There were two guys sitting twiddling their thumbs at the SGC booth where you could literally approach them. Do you think when you walk into the Apple store and you have to wait to get service this turns away customers? Of course not it makes them want the product more. The same is true here. Over the years I have read about many of the top collections in cards and you guessed it they are in PSA holders. There is heard mentality in life and just reading the message boards online you can see it with your own two eyes. The number of cards trying to be crossed over to PSA is off the charts. As I have said so many times, as the spread widened in price it would naturally attract more business and continue to diminish the other brands. The influx of money that has come into cards in the past five years are business people. If they spoke to anyone about the third party authentication market the conservation would be brief as the choice would be so clear. It is was it is.

I agree. Not sure why there is even any debate. I know its a hobby but as i said before you will see many people in the hobby eventually sell their cards for 'medication, new improvement on house, college' etc. So if you were going to sell your cards, would you rather sell a same graded card thats PSA to get more medication or sell the SGC same graded card and with that money get less medication. I dont care how pretty the holder is.

However, as stated, if you have the chance to get a grade higher on your submission with SGC that would increase interest at least in the short term

At the same National an advanced collector I met through the CU board happened to be at the PSA booth trying to get a card from the Black Swamp find bumped from an 8.5 to a 9. No luck so he went back to SGC whom he had discussed it with prior and they did the honors. You are correct that they do get business in this fashion as the person knew that it would garner a higher selling price in the SGC slab as Mint.

Does SGC still slab alter/trimmed cards?

I like the fact PSA doesn't, but maybe they also did at one time.

As an aside, I am surprised how much this card fetched. :confused:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1952-Topps-2...vip=true&rt=nc

Yes and no. They will slab them A for Authentic if you want them slabbed. If you do not request them slabbed as authentic then no they will not slab them.

I did send in 1 counterfeit card with my last submission to SGC. They refused to slab it and I got this neat flip with NO on it and the paper checked counterfeit. PSA has been sent 5 of those same exact cards and slabbed all 5 of them.

Interesting (your bold)

Thanks for the info, Ben. I appreciate it.