+1. In addition, newbies into the hobby/business are jumping on the PSA Bandwagon too by exclusively purchasing PSA, which only exacerbates the issue. I personally know of two high-income guys entering our beloved pastime and will only buy PSA. I’ve tried selling them on SGC to no avail.

And did PSA magically get to be more expensive in a vacuum, or did it get there because people favored them?

He also re-replies to himself often, which functions to re-activate the thread on the daily digest of newly updated threads, which is artificial, since if there were still useful points to add on the topic, others would be commenting and it could carry on of its own accord.

Also, b/w this thread and a few others I think I recall, this seems the only topic of fixation.

It seems designed just to bait people into an argument over a topic that is already well-worn...

When people say it’s not about the money don’t believe them it’s always about the money lol.

I dont think anyone disputes the higher "market value" of PSA. However, the "exact same quality" of card can be had from SGC for less money which works great for those of us who use binders for raw cards.

We are able to get the same grade cards without paying top market prices.

Peter- there was no magic involved, which you already knew. PSA was "first", which some people equate with being best. (You may recall a recent time in the American automotive industry when consumers bought cars simply because they were American, despite overwhelming evidence the product had deteriorated. Over time, even lots of those hard liners gave up and bought better made vehicles)…
Back to the original question, which was which grader does the reader "respect", my answer and point remains the same. I "respect" the company which actually gets the grade RIGHT a high percentage of the time and which employs good customer service as well. There will be folks who say they respect PSA more; however, that respect is almost exclusively pecuniary in nature, because the grading consistency and accuracy just ain't there. Again, 3 cheers to PSA for making truckloads of cash despite delivering mediocre product; however, that result does not equate to "respect" or "proficiency".

To me there's still an element of circularity to say people prefer PSA because it sells for more. Sales prices are a function of supply and demand, so there has to be a reason for the demand and I don't believe at this point it's just first-mover advantage, that was used up a long long time ago. I understand your perspective though.

I think everyone has extremely valid points
Card collecting is fun but a stressful burden if you are doing it as a business and for the love of the hobby. Thats what I do.
I love to collect and fell in love w the 33 goudey set and 1915 cracker jack set when I took a bus to the convention center in my hometown when I was 12 yrs old and saw those gems.
1972...a ruth card was 50 bucks and I had 50 bucks in my pocket.
I cut grass and shoveled snow and saved money.
I bought a bunch of piedmont tobacco cards for one dollar each ....I was just a kid.
I remember seeing a 53 mantle in a plastic sleeve which was beautiful for 8 dollars.
If you all want to see the 109 cards that were rejected by psa as crossovers that were all psa 8s go to this website
Rgold7000 image events 1933s
I bought 109 of those cards at sgc 88 and 92
Not one crossed.
They were all psa 8s at one time
I see that the gentleman I bought the cards from has commented on my posts.
Perhaps psa is a little more strict nowadays
But u have to admit
That means collection was sweet..every card I purchased from him was an 88 or 92
And I've never talked to anyone in the hobby that is smarter than rgold7000
Everyone of his cards were pristine
He is a perfectionist
Every corner may not have been perfect but surface area and eye appeal was as good as any psa 8 in the hobby except for the 33 goudeys that just sold on heritage
That collection is the finest group of 33s I've ever seen
Everyone of those cards were high high psa 8s the rest were 9s and deserving.
So I don't mean to piss anyone off
I own restaurants so this is why I post late at night
Never leave my work until 230am



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What I can say about rgold7000 is that he is probably the smartest most knowledgeable man I've ever met in the hobby
And I have had the displeasure of meeting
Auction company owners and many others

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I'm not into poisoning the hobby and I won't say who are the bad guys
But when there is money to be made, there are bad guys.
I got screwed and learned my lesson the hard way....shame on him
But it's not going to be shame on me in the future.
Vintage sgc cards are as good as psa
And they are easily worth the same if not more
Who knows if the prices will ever correct.
Quite frankly I don't care at this point

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me neither... i just have the bug to buy cards and try and enjoy them knowing they are "probably" real? Unlike the 99% nice raw cards that are altered. At least you have a fighting chance in a PSA or SGC case, I think?

I'd just like to know how they crack their slabs and how they do it with out destroying the card?:D

I just read the last 3 pages of this thread since it was showing in my unread, and now I have a tremedous headache.

I can appreciate this. And this is not directed at you but,...
It seems some of the laws economics are not working so well in our hobby. I postulate that collectors, by and large have created an environment where TPGs are a necessity. Too many cards have been altered and reprinted (well). Most seasoned collectors know to buy the card and not the holder but relying and third party authentication is crucial to many, especially high dollar vintage.

Yet, the most successful company is not the best. Not even close, save prices realized. It is well agreed that PSA is less consistent than SGC. Their holders are second to SGC. Their cusomter service is worse. Yet, they continue to receive a lion’s share of the submissions and realize higher prices at auction. For a number of reasons, despite the above, the buying public prefers PSA slabbed cards. They have spoken loud and clear.

I suppose there is value in the registry, but that is it. The collector universe, by and large, thinks critically and academicly about this passion and should be acting/buying according to finished product vs name recognition and marketing. But not so much. I am guilty of this too. I am sitting on a large submission. I will most likely bring it to the national this summer. For vintage I am on the fence, SGC vs PSA. SGC wins all categories. All but one. Grade for grade, they will be worth more if they are in a PSA holder. The circle will not break until there is equilibrium between prices realized.

I am asking, what will it take for that to happen? And, has that already started? It seems like there are more and more pro SGC comments on these debates lately. Can that move the needle?

As someone may have already stated, "It's always all about the money."

The SGC holders and how our cards look in them are amazing, though their current one, with the loud, boldface number and blacker appearance, is not as elegant as their original forest green cert. Moreover, I enjoyed their old, unique grading scale, and became somewhat used to it. My only complaint with them, however, was the fact they very, very, rarely awarded a card with "98 Gem Mint". PSA seemed to award many more cards with GEM MINT 10. Even though this suggests SGC were "tougher" graders than PSA, I think over the years the lack of SGC "98 Gem Mint" irritated collectors. They could understand the lack of cards receiving the exceedingly rare "100 Pristine" grade. However, it was almost as rare to get the "98 Gem Mint", and after awhile, you just want to say, "nuts to SGC and their nice holders", I'll go with PSA---at least they'll give a great card "PSA 10", and their holders have been fine all along the way, never changing that much. Furthermore, ya get more money for your PSA-graded cards, so..... it becomes an easy decision.

Now, for a time, 10-12 years ago, I had to go with SGC, because they would grade some of my confirmable unique, ultra rare, over-sized items that PSA wouldn't grade. I must stress the few over-sized items I sent to SGC look magnificent in their over-sized holder, because they could custom-cut their black insert to fit the large card/flat box/ larger premium PERFECTLY!

Honestly, I've never been attracted to any master set player registry, because by its nature, you MUST collect all the items to be competitive. I don't have any intention nor interest along those lines, and it's not just because of the sheer cost. I ONLY want items that really capture my fancy, whereby I respect how they were issued and the promotion from whence they came. Moreover, I only wanted to "collect" pieces I found exceedingly beautiful, with compelling eye appeal. There's often a lot of mundane or flat-out ugly items that comprise a player set registry. I don't care if it's ultra rare; if it's ugly, I don't care---to own it. Be that as it may, if my fellow collectors choose to pursue any of PSA's set or player registries, that is great and I sincerely wish them happy collecting and fulfillment. I also think of my friend Chris De Bono, who for years aggressively hunted down as many different items of Mickey Mantle as he could. Some are professionally graded; some are not---that was not particularly important to him. What was important was getting as many different genuine Mantles issued during his career as possible. Chris has over 400, and all I can bellow is a sincere, "WOW!!!" One of his most fascinating adventures was the procurement of a 1960 Home Run Derby set (the year is correct--read chapter 8 of the E-book on a CD, NEVER CHEAPER BY THE DOZEN) for the solitary reason of getting the Mickey Mantle. His strategy was to have all the cards graded by PSA, then sell the cards one by one, and keep his prized Mickey Mantle. The strategy worked brilliantly, and he patiently got all his money back, including grading fees, and essentially, got a Home Run Derby Mickey for free!!!!!! That is saying something, but I don't believe he could have achieved the same glowing results had he gone with grading his set by SGC.

The matter of PSA versus SGC has gone on and on, ad nauseam. It is important though that our hobby has three good grading companies, with Beckett being the third. At least we have a choice. Each company has its pluses, just as each company has its respective chagrin.

In the end, the principles of supply and demand, and what generates the most money will win out, far and away. I guess I've had my say, except to stress, collect and be happy, 'cause life is shorter than you think. ---Brian Powell

Excellently said

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I recently sold a group of sgc 88s that I had duplicates of...33 goudey cards.
They sold for 42 percent higher than what I paid.
I bought them less than 12 months ago
So sgc is going forward


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Well said
Very well said
Thx

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I initially wrote many comments about sgc and how much luck I had w them
Recently I purchased many t206,1915 and 33s in sgc 88 or 8 now at lower than vcp prices...I got crushed when I auctioned some of them,
And recently I have bought dozens of t206 1915 and 33s in PSA 8 at lower than vcp prices and made 200 percent at auction for some and none less than 50 percent
For example
I bought a sgc 92 54 red heart musial for way too much...it sold for almost a thousand at auction
A psa 7 in same auction fetched almost the same amount.
I can say one thing for sure.
I won't be buying sgc cards anymore.
psa cards in my opinion are a helluva alot nicer than sgc in high grades.
I never thought cards in less than a 7 or 84 so I can't comment on lower graded cards
I'm extremely disappointed in the money sgc 88s are bringing
3x less than psa


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IMO and I consider myself asavy typically neurotic collector.

SGC is a tougher grader EXCEPT for centering which I think hurts their brand.

I have crossed over cards back and forth just to experiment and SGC is tougher. Many sgc 88's came bach 8.5 and 9's.

I collect mostly midgrade, so cannot speak to the discrepancy in high grade or what prices they bring. I'm more than happy with the SGC cards I own, but am not trying to sell them at the moment. For things like corners and overall grade I have always thought they are very comparable to PSA - and their holder and customer service are several notches above.

Sooooo…. you overpaid, and somehow it's SGCs fault?

http://www.net54baseball.com/picture...ictureid=26638

Also (NSFW language)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMl9oYSVGlo

#Snicker. I see what he means, it's a bit surprising (and more than a bit disappointing if you need to get the $ out of them...) that NM PSA cards sell for nearly as much as NM-MT+ or higher SGC cards. But alas...this is why I collect PSA 5 and 6's.

I don't blame anyone for my decisions in buying high grade sgc vintage cards and selling within a year after purchase at a loss
I kept my favorite cards...a friend of mine told me to collect what u like and hold
I like obviously Robinson, Mays, Aaron in early years and have kept.
Mantle is out of control
What I am saying is that I've bought in the last 12 months lots of sgc 88s and psa 8s...all below vcp and I've done super on the psa cards and got my ass handed to me on sgcs
Psa is hard on corners and centering
Sgc is also but not as much...they are different...surface is one of their biggest concerns
People buy eye appeal and psa cards have much better corners and centering in general creating that.
Bottom line... it took a my hard head to realize it...
Psa is safe and u r much better owning PSA
I have talked to every major auction house in the hobby
Ask them what to buy. They will say psa by far.
Mid grade vintage sgcs at 4 are comparable to psa .
But high grades in 6 or better
Psa suffocates sgc


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U post frequently
I do not know what u collect
But your posts are intelligent
I put comments out there to get reactions
I stir the pot to get people talking.
If u collect to have certain cards, that is really what the hobby is all about
Enjoyment.
Unfortunately, it has become a money issue..
Sucks!
I don't care about psa or sgc.
I know the sgc president and he's a frickin great guy and fair.
But if u r looking for a fair investment which any reasonable person would...sgc is probably not the way to go.
I'd wait on buying sgc unless it's a super star.
I took a bath on high grade sgc 88s..hall of famers like plank, lajoie recently but made great money on similar names at psa
Not fair.
But I would not buy a sgc card anymore unless its 50 percent less than psa smr.

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Does anyone here think SGC will ever close the gap with PSA? I buy PSA graded but submit with SGC do to the price of grading.

I hope they do because I think they are the better company in terms of presentation of their product, and their customer service. But I would not hold my breath. PSA got up a huge head of steam in their marketing and "desirability" early due to the introduction of the registry. The fact that they are inconsistent (tough on cards in the 1990's - easier - noticeably on vintage - in the early 2000's. Slowly tougher on everything in the early 2010's. Really and in some cases ridiculously tough on vintage after 2015...) doesn't seem to matter for whatever reason in terms of popularity and the prices their cards bring. Also they had a lot of press and publicity over grading the Gretzky Wagner back 20+ years ago - and yes, although they blew it - nobody really cared.

SGC if nothing else will maintain an even keel due to their popularity with prewar collectors and the fact that if not #1, people know they are a solid company with a good rep - and they are not hated like Beckett among vintage collectors.

I would not put raw cards in sgc if you are confident about the grade
Psa sells for 2x what sgc does sometimes higher
If u buy sgc be prepared to get sgc prices back
If u buy psa expect to get a nice percentage back overtime

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Grading is an afterthought to me on most things and not a requirement. I buy graded (mostly PSA) online to try to reduce the risk even on midgrade, but the only company I've ever submitted to is SGC. Other places online besides this forum, and all you ever hear about are the horror stories with PSA turn times, people who haven't seen their cards for 6 months, etc, etc. I'm not signing up for that.

This is a fun, although difficult read at times....given all that is going on today.

I think we are learning for a fact what many have suspected for a long time - the "professional" grading companies at times are anything but professional, and a lot of mistakes and skullduggery even sometimes sneaks through. I'd love to see PSA take a grandiose fall from this mess with PWCC and the alterations, but even now that's probably a long shot...

I have been saying that for many many years, hopefully it finally happens.

On a good note I sold my last high dollar(to me) PSA card about a month ago.:D

Good for you. I still have a number of PSA slabs, but most are hopefully mid-grade and low dollar enough to where I should not have to worry. I hope nobody out there doctored my PSA 6.5 '70 Nolan Ryan...but who knows.

Increasingly online I go after SGC. It sucks though that there are so few choices there still compared to PSA.

PSA is the benchmark...
I have posted on here many times.
PSA cards are not generally better than sgc
PSA is hard on corners but sgc is hard on surface and eye appeal.
Corners aren't everything...
I like needle corners...
PSA has the market and sgc has alot of work to do.


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Have you read any of the recent PWCC / Moser fraud threads? PSA is awful at grading cards. SGC is getting identified as passing $50,000 cards as unaltered. Would love to see your take. I'm up in the middle of the night today too.

The problem is PSA has the cool registry
Sgc doesn't
I have cracked out PSA 8 cards that I thought were 8.5 and came back as 7.5.
I've cracked out sgc 88s that came back as 7s and 8s and one 8.5
It's a frickin crap shoot guys.
PSA has become very very over the top in grading.
Mostly because they r very busy and have dummies grading cards.
Most of u folks reading this know more about grading cards than the clowns PSA has grading.
They are very busy and they suck.
Sgc will give u better service and a realistic value on your investment or hobby

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I don't know much about pwcc
My good friend has said and has decades of experience that pwcc can't be trusted
Many shenanigans
The best companies are mile high and rea
Heritage is corrupt I think too

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I have recently seen an uptick in 1933 Indian gum cards
They are the most beautiful cards in the hobby
They are extremely rare
Any thoughts?
They might be the way to go....history and very very cool.

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I saw on pwcc recently what Indian gum cards are selling for.
WOW!
I've been following them in the last year.
They are sky rocketing in price by 30x in some cases.
They are so rare and hard to find.
Supply and demand I guess.

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All I know right now is that if I am looking to buy an expensive, high grade card...I am not even considering it if it's in a PSA holder. Not with all this

+1, and many collectors feel the same. For me this has led to a greater appreciation of lower grade cards again. If you have a mid-to-lower 1950's star I think for the most part both PSA and SGC are going to be safe. I really hope someone hasn't doctored a '57 Clemente from a 1 to a 3 - but for the 3 you can probably get it for $100 or less. And in many cases they still have a ton of eye appeal.

Anyone with high grade PSA cards
 

Ill still be buying at the national if you have them to sell. i would prefer in this market to buy them in person though so i can make a good assessment. I'll be set up with Andy Madec please feel free to stop by with what you have for sale.

I will say
My 1933 Indian gum cards graded by sgc are unbelievable....excellent
The ones ive seen graded by psa and im only saying this set compared to psa at same grade is not even close.
I can't believe the discrepancy...
I don't know who grades Indian gum cards at psa but sgc is a much better clue.
Ive seen psa Indian cards at 5 that are 3s in sgc
In this set psa lost it.

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I was very disgusted with the pwcc/psa
News.
Im not an expert grader but have been coached by a expert....don't know if he's the best...but i would argue that he may be.
Every gosh darn mistake i made in the hobby
He warned me of and was too stupid to listen
I was so f....g lucky not to lose my ass.
He and i discussed so much over the last couple of years....like half grades and 9s compared to 8s.
My friend was so right
Really...there isn't anyone really in the hobby that can tell between a 8 or a 8.5
Or an 88 or a 92.
Just confuses collector's....no disrespect
No auction owner in this hobby can actually tell u its a 86 or an 84 or a 6.5 or a 7
I've invested 100s of thousands in cards and have not lost my ass....i just love cards and making deals....its my gambling
I don't visit casinos.
What i should have learned from my friend is that u get a good shake from sgc overall
What u pay for an sgc is honest and u get the same honest price out of it if u sell if u bought it at a avg sgc price.
PSA has been the strong and the standard
But now i believe sgc is the strong and the honest when it comes to your dollar.
I have gone back n forth w psa and sgc trying to figure it out
Sgc cards are legitimate
Most PSA cards r too.
But from now on...
I am not talking the chance.....
We r talking big big money

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I truly believe its unfortunate
I have knowledge that hundreds of psa 8s crossed to sgc 88s and when tried to cross back to psa 8s came back lower.
How can u explain that?
All the sudden the grading system changed
Makes me absolutely sick




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Who is this expert you speak of?

psa crappy site
 

I was never a fan of PSA before the scandal, and I'm even more weary now.

For what I collect, historically, PSA are one of the most, if not THE most incompetent grader / researchers in the hobby.

I used to keep a computer file on all the mislabeled, mistakes PSA distributed to the collecting world. Its soon became abundant in my collecting circles that PSA was very unreliable. So we agreed to shut them out. They are not familiar with the materials being submitted, but even worse, didn't do simple google to find out. (I found the cards and sets in less than 5 minutes online)

Needless to say, my interest is not financial, so I will not speak of which company is a better investment except that if you are buying PSA cards that are counterfeit or even worse, fantasy cards, it's your mistake. Caviat Emptor.


I'm playing it safe as PSA has a good possibility of becoming worthless property (yes, I know they have die hard supporters, but so did Hitler and Stalin.) I'm selling off my PSA to those die hard supporters. Yes, I'm profiting from their zeal.

I won't be stuck with tarnished goods.

I'll also be glad to share my finding to anyone who comes to the National. (ask for booth and contact through pm)

Happy hunting

He sounds formidable. :D:D:D

I am preparing a submission of about 25 cards, some 33 Goudeys, T206, and a bunch of 50s and 60s HOFers- Mantles, Aarons and others.

I decided on SGC as they seem to be on par with PSA in pre-war and 60s. And overall, I prefer a lot of things about SGC. However, as I am recording my expected grades and looking up values, I noticed some cards have large discrepancies from PSA.

For example, a 1938 Goudey Heads up Bump Hadley.... I look up 5s, 6s and 7s and there has not been an SGC recorded sale on any of these - EVER. Plenty for PSA. Now, I do not plan on selling anytime soon, but is it not a problem that that there is literally no sale activity on their cards other than the superstars? I guess this stems from lack of registry?