The participation award argument does cross over to 300 wins as well with guys like niekro and sutton, but again, I do think you underestimate just how amazing it is to be able to keep your body and mind in major league condition at 40 plus. I'm 34 and can't move the way I did at 24. To be 40 and be productive on a major league roster is a pretty freakish thing.

It wasnt whether 3000 hits is impressive, its whether compared to total bases whether its that impressive. None of those guys you mentioned are in the top 30 in total bases. Yet there is no mention of any total bases milestones but people go crazy and buy relic cards of 3000 hits. Lots of guys are better than replacement level players that wasnt my point

Yes participating in the major leagues 20 years means you are a pro baseball player that obviously offered a lot , but it says nothing of whether you were elite. Cumulative stats can make someone look elite though when you add 20 years versus a guy that only played 5 years in total though at an elite level.

....it doesnt matter if only 1 percent ever played 20 years, that has nothing to do about whether you are elite. I can find lots of players that did things that 99 percent of the players didn't and that would also mean nothing in terms of measuring an elite player.

I agree to be 40 years old and be able to play pro baseball is amazing, but i think you would agree right now Ichiro is a replacement level player. Its funny that that once you get to 40 and beyond..no matter what you did before, the first year you do terrible, everyone says its over (ie. Arod)

We arent grading on a curve here...impressive at 40 for ichiro still for him means replacement level.

...
 

NOT trying to be a sh!t-stirrer here but:

top 60 career TB leaders....are #41 BAINES (longevity / 2800+ hits- OK, maybe) and #57 Luis Gonzalez (an OK player but, um...NO), really HOFers based solely on your argument of "HOF-worthy" underappreciated TB's????

granted, the BBWAA and veterans committee are not always correct or rational w/ their decisions, good AND bad, but do TB's REALLY qualify as an accurate HOF-worthy measuring stick???

shee-yit, Helton (#62), Damon (#72), Finley (#7) and Staub (#76) are HOF-worthy based on your argument ???, while the majority listed above them - Top 80 - seemingly had warranted careers which INCLUDED their respective TB counts - are at least more believable.

sorry, I disagree, respectfully or otherwise, based on your "3000 hits vs TB's argument" as being a valid measuring stick, but...

p.s. - feel free to block me should you choose - I've got THICK skin, and I have NO desire to get into an elongated back/forth debate - just thought I'd offer my imput, and RESPECTFULLY disagree with your personal viewpoint - we can all do that civilly: ain't America great!

best wishes, happy collecting and...*PEACE* !!!

Ichiro is batting 318 with more walks than strikeouts and still plays a very good outfield with a cannon arm. He is a high end platoon player to me not replacement level. If he were released now teams would be falling all over themselves to sweep him up for the stretch run.

Talk is sort of cheap. Last season he was worse than replacement level and hit .229. His batting avg has gone down a ton the past month. Replacement level is a compliment for a 40 year old.

So some team will pay for him for a month or 2 at a very low salary as a bench player and pinch hitter. Thats a replacement level player That still doesnt say much. He wasnt offered any other jobs this year for a reason Next year nobody is going to be fighting to sign him. There was zero bidding war for him this year. If he was a high end platoon player he would have more opportunities than the Marlins. Heck why wouldnt Seattle want him for more money to finish his career.

Looks like you cited some participation award type players and used a lot of capital letters. It appears like you are agreeing with me that hits or other stats that are participation awards are indeed overrated. I love how you talk about respectfully disagreeing in the same sentence as offering yourself to be blocked. The discussion involves 3000 hits which puts it in a top 30 category of all time hits. I would likewise compare the top 30 in all time total bases and not guys 70-80. I can look at guys in the top 20 in total bases and compare them to #80-#100 to make a bad argument as well.

Not sure what you are arguing. I just compared total bases accomplishments versus hits even in the context of a participation award. Number 7 in all time total bases is babe ruth not Finley by the way but i am assuming that was a typo.

I was watching the Mets game yesterday afternoon and as the D’backs set a new record for a three game series of stolen bases against of the Mets, Gary Cohen and Keith Hernandez got into a debate about saber-metrics, the importance of steals, etc. Gary was making the point that steals have become a virtual nonexistent in the game, as the new metrics are proving that unless you are stealing at a 75% success rate, the art of the steal is ineffective. Keith went into a bit of a tirade. If you watch SNY, this is usually entertaining. He argued about the Cardinal days of the 70’s with guys like Lou Brock. He then tried to explain to Gary that there is more than sheer numbers. I am paraphrasing, as I couldn’t find the actual video of his exact wording, but he said something to the effect of…

“All of these statistics don’t tell the larger picture. How the lead of a potential base stealer can get into the head of an opposing pitcher. How the base stealer can cause a pitcher to rush his delivery. How a base stealer can change shifts in defensive alignments.” He said much more, and with more clarity, but I think his point is valid and can be applied here as well.

An argument/discussion, based purely on numbers doesn’t tell the whole picture. Anyone with 20 minutes can go to Baseball-Reference and create an argument that debunks a counter argument.

Are 3,000 hit an impressive achievement, regardless of longevity? Absolutely. Are 4,500 total bases (or whatever arbitrary number) impressive? Without a doubt. Does one mean “more” to overall greatness or Hall of Fame worthiness? In my opinion, probably not. Like Keith, I am more in line with looking at totality.

(Shameless plug for Keith) – He is not a Hall of Famer, although many, including myself, would argue he should be. His hit total puts him at #192 on the all-time list. His total base totals put him at #229. His batting average puts him at #268. Sheer numbers – not that impressive. But if you look at the totality of his career – Arguably the greatest defensive 1B of all time. 11 CONSECUTIVE gold gloves. The trade catalyst (along with Carter) for bringing a championship to Queens. A team leader, on and off the field. The Captain. These things aren’t quantifiable by numbers solely (well, the Gold Gloves are), but they mean something to overall greatness.

I’m a math teacher. I love numbers as much as the next stat nerd, but let’s not lose sight of the forest for the trees. Want to argue Ichiro? Great. Debate it. But debate his totality to his teams. What did he bring to the table? Did he elevate his team? Did he bring unity to the clubhouse? Did he teach, through daily actions, what it takes to be great? All of the numbers are great, but let’s keep them in the context of what unites all of us – the game of baseball – not the baseball-reference website.

Agree with Michael. There are some guys in the hall who you would trade for guys not in because they meant more to their teams and were winners with skills statistics do not measure.

I agree with that. Thats why i call some award participation awards. In the NBA, they do talk about total points scored. However, the stats are really more focused on points/rebounds/assists etc per game.

You tell me somebody got a million rebounds in a career, to me its more impressive if he had 13.5 rebounds a game and played 8 years. I think in the NBA changing the amount of games in a season, if they did it, isnt as big a deal as baseball. Less games in baseball it will be harder to get the magical 3000 hits. In basketball, you can still score 30.4 points a game and be called one of the greatest all time scorers and nobody will care that you scored less points in a season or got below the magical whatever number in total points..

Baseball is just different..

How does a guy who gets 3,000 hits in 16 seasons qualify as a participation award player? Before you said anyone could play 23 seasons and get 3,000 hits. Ichiro did it in 16.

I already addressed that Ichiro got his 3000 in many less years than the others (only 1 of 2 with 16 years)...... I actually addressed that many many times.

they celebrate 3000 hits, not the amount of years it took him to get it. We arent just talking about ichiro we are talking about 3000 hit club in general.

So coming up with 1 out of 2 of the lone examples of guys that did it in 16 years or less that are in the 3000 club proves my point, you are citing an exception not the rule. You already appear to agree that 23 seasons amounts to a participation award as you were quick to talk about Ichiro. 25 guys took 20 years or more on the top 30. Most of the remainder are 19 years of service. Cap Anson 27 years which is 111 hits a year. (yes many many less games a season) Still if you play 23 seasons you need 130 hits a year. Replacement guys can do that, but they arent going to have the power needed to get in the top 30 of total bases.

How come Julio Franco doesn't have 3,000 hits?

How come Ichiro doesnt have 4000 total bases or even 3900 total bases even with 3000 hits? Walks are also added to the total bases which makes the feat amazing.

I would assume Julio Franco doesnt have 3000 hits because he only played in 120 games in a year 13 times. Plus one year he played ONE game, in another year 15 games and there are 9 years in which he played under 100 games many for far less. Give him 20 years of steady games and he gets it easy

Its too bad Franco didnt get to participate more to win the participation award

3,000 hits. 500 home runs. 300 wins. 3,000 strikeouts.

Rightly or wrongly, these milestone career totals have been celebrated for decades. I personally consider achieving any one of them to be a, "big deal," as the OP framed it.

I understand that advanced statistics are available and perhaps more useful when comparing one particular player to another. However, I also try to keep things in context. In and of itself, racking up 3,000 hits in Major League Baseball is quite an accomplishment.

In short, yes, it IS a big deal. Kudos to all who have done it.

If 4,500 total bases somehow becomes a milestone, which I doubt, then let us applaud those players, too.

Best regards,

Eric

Walks aren't added to total bases........

Ah now you see what that would of been an amazing feat... there are other metrics that factor it in..

To sum up, there are different ways to look at total bases versus hits...each side has its argument..neither side is 'wrong' No more from me on this thread....

Much appreciated, Jake. Thank you.

mic drop.

:D

sure they are MILESTONES for the player, and celebration points for an individual's lengthy career. My entire argument has been that hitting a milestone doth not necessarily carry with it some level of prowess. There is no such a thing as a "3000 hit player" as not all hits are created equal. There are plenty of hitters better than many on the 3000 hit club who had long careers that were far more productive.

In a nutshell, I'm just saying that getting to a milestone doesn't make you a better player than some other who failed to reach it. We have to look deeper below the surface.


ETA: the OP asked if 3000 hits was overrated, and yes I tend to think that ,as an indicator of player performance, it IS!

I'm surprised you didn't want more input Eric.....:rolleyes:

I was never arguing with you. And I agree with what I consider to be the salient point of your post. For example, Lou Gehrig did not amass 3,000 hits or 500 home runs. Does this make him any less of a player? Of course not. Was he better than Ichiro? I certainly think so.

All I was trying to say is that achieving 3,000 hits is pretty special. Perhaps we should all just enjoy the accomplishment instead of trying to "win" a discussion that somehow devolved into the polarized argument this thread has become.

I tend to think ,for many in this discussion anyway, that the "polarization" existed before. If I had known so many folks would turn this into some personal vendetta against the OP (and vice-versa) I probably would have stayed away, but by the time that became apparent to me, I was already neck deep in it! lol

Nick the OP posts these type of threads to cause problems. Just pull up his profile and look at the threads he has started, you will then understand the problem.:)

Bravos: You can look at bnorth's posts which are always critical of me and you will see many posts from other posters (except CMIZE) in those threads which he referencing which are just fine with my posts, however he ALWAYS has a problem and likes to stir the pot. Its not like he is neutral in the matter. You will now understand the problem. I not commenting about the subject matter of the thread but when people quote nonsense I will set the record straight.

Starting a thread to make a baseball argument isnt a bad thing by the way. I thought people like baseball here. Its not like what some other posters who tend to bring up politics etc. I not see bnorth jump on people bringing up presidential candidates but if its a baseball argument, then its the worst thing in the world i guess.

Can't you shut up for one minute? Please, please, go away. You are a fungus....

No worries, brother. I appreciate you weighing in. You're right about the friction already existing. There are quite a few dynamics in place that could be improved upon. This, of course, is no fault of yours. Have a great weekend.

Hi, Jake. I hope this finds you well.

You're right as it pertains to the points I quoted above. However, there are some members (myself included) who feel as though you go out of your way to troll the board.

I personally think that you're an OK guy with quite a bit to offer. Perhaps if you play to your strengths (knowledge of the high end sports card market) and tone down the other stuff, you will gain more widespread acceptance here.

Just my two cents. Do with them what you will, good sir.

Best regards,

Eric

One last thing...while there is no rule about posting images of cards, I think that a hundred or so posts without one is too many. Enjoy the '56 Mantle, everyone.

Another useful quote by CMIZE, what did that have to offer except trollling

Thanks. I will keep it in mind. You will see i try to keep my arguments on topic though without a post which the sole reason is to just criticize the poster. There would appear others that should tone it down as well. I also think if you read all of the posts and keep a neutral mind you may not see me as an instigator. I know there were a few posters that actually thought CMIZE wasnt biased against me or i was making it up that he trolls my posts, but after they actually read the full threads they messaged me and saw where i was coming from.

Nice Mick by the way

It absolutely is because it takes sustainability and durability. Ichiro got 3000 hits and most take longer than he did in terms of seasons. I think only Rose also got 3000 in his 16th season. Many players have that potential. Not many actually make it.