Derek,
Sweet grouping of images! I am especially fond of the minor league images of players who would go on to major league greatness. If by "getting better digital images" you mean finding a way to scan them at higher resolution than the images that were posted when you purchased them, please feel free to send me a PM for some suggestions.

SUPERB shots of Joe and Ted, Ben, which goes without saying but I'm saying it anyway!

horzverti & cats - thanks for those responses.

Thought had read he was not supposed to sell any of the negatives for one of the archives, probably misread something, but it would be interesting to know what the agreements allowed. This would be especially true in terms of the copyrights, since he violated the agreement, if he ever had them to begin with, etc. I did not know that some had been on the market from Brace/Burke before Rodgers took the archive, explains a lot really!

Conlon is mostly together still, Brace/Burke though, you're right, it's a shame they were not scanned properly and a catalog was made before being sold! Do not see a way it could ever be done either - unless those who own Burke/Brace prints/negs scan and fans create a central website to house them, kind of put them together backwards. Expensive and massive though.


Also see who outbid me on those auctions Forever_Young!!

That may well have been the case with the Conlons. I know he had some sort of shared profit agreement with The Sporting News for the marketing of the Conlon images. That may have required him to keep the Conlon collection intact as well, but I just don't know.

Even with fan/collector participation, such a project would never approach replicating the original archive. Even if one could contact every collector who has a portion of the archive, there are too many with the "1/1" attitude of wanting to be the only one who has a particular image that would not participate. The early negatives are also large enough that most desktop scanners cannot accommodate them, meaning the vast majority of collectors do not have a way of scanning the negatives, even if they are inclined to contribute to such a project.

Maybe we should try anyway. Even if 1/10 were scanned, it would be great. I mean.. I will contribute my 6! :)

Conlon - could be, never did see much of a follow up on the story to know more.

Brace/Burke - definitely, that's what would make it extremely expensive. Plus you couldn't just rely on negatives but would have to scan prints as well because those negatives may be lost in private collections or just gone (or 1/1 attitude). Guess that's kind of what the LOC did with the Bain collection, they have if it was scanned from the original negative or a print since some of the negatives ended up in collections. Even with a large amount of them scanned/restored and on a site, not sure what could do with it...except list who owns the original negative, or the print that it came from, if for sale, etc. Mary Brace probably still owns the copyrights to them all is my guess.

I'm currently working with an archive containing hundreds of original glass plate negatives from the 30's. You may have seen some of my posts about this but here's a sampling:

Typical neg from the archive. Leo Durocher, St. Louis Cardinals:
https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8132/2...abce6c8f_z.jpg

Professionally cleaned and restored image of Sam Leslie, NY Giants in our proposed postcard size:
https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/752/33...a9318c85_c.jpg

Jackie Robinson 1945 original negatives
 

Jackie Robinson 1945 original negatives.

I've got a Type I photo with this same image...it's a classic shot! Nice one!

Sandy Koufax Color Negative
 

Hello:
Can anyone tell me the value of a color Sandy Koufax negative from April 1962 at Wrigley Field.. Koufax had 18 strikeouts in this game ...

Only have a few:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/XD...A=w640-h510-no

1916 Thorpe at bat.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/wT...Q=w420-h342-no

1925 Grange during his first pro football game.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/nC...g=w339-h415-no

1924 Grange at Illinois

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/sf...A=w278-h360-no

1928 Grange with kids

jeff

Pretty awesome thread. What struck me, was that Al Simmons photo with his son...if his son is alive today, he's probably around 80!

In that Thorpe photo, looks like he tore the cover off the ball, man.

I bought three (3) original 5x7 George Burke negatives recently and I already have them scanned. At 2000 DPI resolution, the file size in PNG is 232MB and in JPG is 38.6 MB

I sent them off and had them professionally scanned and they turned out even better than I could have imagined. Cost was $105 for the company I picked online.

On a side note, there is a new owner in Illinois who picked up many many boxes (about half of the Burke negatives) from an auction, he was able to get them for around $45,000. I have made one attempt at contacting the company in search for a one particular player from the Cardinals, but I never got a response. I can link you to the article if anyone is wanting to read about this transaction. I had to "pay" for the article and so I probably will need to take a screen shot of it of you want to read it, else you will have to pay to read the article online.

Definitely would like to see it! Talk about a community project, restore the collection to the best that it can be, be interesting to say the least. The fact he has that many is interesting, thought they were gone to the wind so to speak.

I'm surprised you paid that much to get them scanned, did they restore as well? I have a negative scanner and did it myself and then sent them off to a guy overseas who did them for $2-15/each. Did an absolutely spectacular job of restoring them. It would have cost about $85/each if done though a company in the U.S. that oddly uses the same labor overseas.

27 double sized shoe hoxes were recovered and sold at auction. Does anyone have a link as to how many shoe boxes there was in total when Mary sold them to John Rogers? I must believe this could be around half of the collection.

http://i65.tinypic.com/21omuqg.png

I don't really collect baseball cards on a whole, nor do I collect the popular players in the game. I just focus on one player for sentimental reasons. I wasn't willing to take a risk at loosing the George Burke negatives, nor was I willing to send them out of the country. I found a website that I liked whose state is adjacent to mine, and I went with it. ^.^ Security and peace of mind comes first, price isn't an issue because I had so few to be done. If I had a box of hundreds of negatives, then price would have become an issue. But I only have just the three.

I don't know how many negatives a "double-sized shoe box" contains, but the 250,000 total negative count that the article estimates for the entire Burke/Brace collection sounds about right.

I doubt that there were any HOFers remaining in the collection by the time the assets were sold, as one of the first things that Rogers did upon acquiring the archive was to pull those out and sell them. Perhaps some stars remained, but there were no doubt many lesser-known and rarely-photographed players in the mix that will never be re-grouped in any meaningful way.

What would be ideal (to my mind) would be to have a wiki-type website that could serve as a repository of baseball imagery of all types wherein contributors could upload images tagged with player ID's, year/team depicted, and photographer (if known). The Burke or Conlon section of such a website could then serve as an archive as desired above, with moderators and/or users having the ability to correct misidentifications and fill in missing information as needed.

The images themselves would probably have to be watermarked or locked in some way to prevent duplication for reasons of potential copyright infringement, but such a site would be a tremendous help to those researching player IDs, dates and uniform styles in their own photos. This would be particularly true if the images were cross-referenced with a site like baseball-reference or retrosheet.

Sadly, I do not have the programming capability to set up such a website, nor would I have the time to moderate in any meaningful way, but would be happy to contribute scans to such a worthy endeavor if one ever did emerge on the web.

Can someone tell me is 2,965 the complete Conlon collection? Just wondering if there are more?

http://www.gettyimages.com/search/mo...opular#license

More original conlon images outside of neg collection? Yes.. nany more

When mentioned sending them overseas I was referring to the digital files and not the actual negatives. Those never left my house.

$46,000 for those negatives,where was I when they were sold, assume it was with rights as sold to Rogers, would have jumped on it. Be nice to know their plans.

The Digital Archive Group that purchased what was left over, 225,000 negatives, said they own the rights to all images now, including the ones Rogers sold off without permission as he scanned them and they have the digital copies. They're giving them away to all the teams to fill out their archives. So guess the collection is still together technically speaking.

So how is it that DAG have the digital copies of the negatives that Rogers scanned and sold off prior to them purchasing the remainder of the archive?

TDAG: http://www.digitalarchivegroup.com/

Here is their recent blog where they seek baseball club owners to contact them http://www.digitalarchivegroup.com/t...ge-collection/

They answered my questions on their Facebook page...


"The Digital Archive Group So, my company now holds rights to all physical and digital rights to the entire collection, regardless of what Rogers sold. The court case is officially closed."

"The Digital Archive Group Yes. He scanned the ones that were sold off and I have that digital copy."

If had known about an auctions pretty sure a bunch of people here would have been involved, wonder why it went under the radar so much?

Also thought the same thing about Mary Brace, she should have been given them back, however she was awarded over $800,000 in missed payments. Though, in the original deal she was supposed to get digital copies of everything, doesn't look like that happened but not entirely sure on that since they do not mention that. Also says the teams will get them exclusively, which think is a mistake - the Hall of Fame should have them, Mary should have them, and if it were in my possession there'd be a site dedicated to them!

Hate seeing archives disappear, and unfortunately it seems this one will - though it won't be broken up, the average person will never see these scans unless team releases them. Wish a writer would dig deeper on all this...

I am hoping the scanned images could be made available for purchase through a site like gettyimages. Seems like many Conlon is available on gettyimages. I've bought a dozen scans myself from gettyimages and would buy more if this archive was made available. Here is hope in a few years time, this archive and metadata can be searched and scans can be bought.

I posted that as well, saying if had known would have bought and made the money back via licensing as Getty does. It's just odd that teams would be the only ones getting them, if they went to the Hall of Fame you could purchase copies and help out the HOF at the same time, teams though depends on if they have a good system in place or not, many not so sure they do.

Kelch Returning Brace Collection To Teams
 

Problem is, Getty is selling the digital image files for $500+ and they are intended for editorial use only. If someone were to sell prints of the images (legally) they would not only need rights to the images but also rights to the team logos. That's how they get ya.

Legally a stand alone print is editorial, it's been challenged and courts have been very clear that selling a print is not commercial. If it wasn't imagine all the lawsuits against photographers and newspapers. There's photographers who sell their work today (Walter Iooss, meager starting price of $2,000 for an 11x14). Leagues of course look at it as a commercial product and require licensing, and if you don't want to cooperate they have the power to shut you down....though literally thousands, if not millions, of photos are for sale on eBay, most stolen.

Topps got sued by Buzz Aldrin and a lower court ruled it was a historic event so they did not need permission from him, it fell under editorial because of its significance. It unfortunately got settled before the appeal happened, as many wanted to see if higher courts would also rule the same.

...other question is now that the Conlon Collection was sold, does Getty still have the rights to sell them? They're still listed under the Rogers Photo Archive, if someone else owns the rights now does Getty still have the right to sell them?

Original negatives- underrated? Show yours
 

Please provide a source for this info. Even if that is the case, anyone selling prints online wouldn't be selling standalone prints. They'd be producing many multiples and offering them as made-to-order items. If it got big enough the leagues could take action for copyright and trademark infringement.

Trust me, I'd love to see it happen but I think there are many legal hurdles that need to be considered.

Correct. Which is why everyone involved in this lawsuit is royally screwed. Several eBay stores were obtaining images through this guy:

http://www.extortionletterinfo.com/f...te-fb-forums)/

http://press.gettyimages.com/stateme...r-a-kowalczuk/








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Interesting, I wonder what happened to the other negatives for the other Conlon images. Surely, the other Conlon negatives must exist somewhere as well?

There are lots of original photos and several negs in the archive I work with. We have everything separated alphabetically though, so it'd be a lot of work to figure out exactly what's there.


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Conlon destroyed a ton of negatives himself, supposedly because of the amount of space they took up. But there are definitely a lot of original photos that have survived and made their way to various auctions, even as far back as the Christie's Baseball Magazine auctions 20 years ago.

Andrew, granted I wasn't there for super long, but when I perused Photofile's archives almost ten years ago, I didn't remember seeing any Conlons. Admittedly, I was only looking for specific players though, and it was what seems like forever ago. Regardless, they do have a ton of really nice and expensive stuff.

Graig, I think it's great you got to take a look at the archive. End up pulling anything? Lots and lots of great stuff in there. Most if not all of the archive was accumulated by my father and was his resource for creating TCMA cards in the 70's and 80's.

There are four Conlon glass negs that I'm aware of but likely more. Will post some pics later this evening :) .


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So here is a Judge Landis, followed by a Zack Wheat with the Brooklyn Robins in 1919. Based on the handwriting I'm guessing this is a Conlon but could use some opinions on that. Either way, 1919 makes Wheat the oldest glass plate negative I've come across in our archive so far:

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4075/...a535e808_o.jpg

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4290/...bb4fbd41_o.jpg

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4254/...fc8a63d5_o.jpg

I will say it probably could be challenged and would be a very interesting case to follow because a lot of legal definitions that have stood for awhile could get redefined. However, since it's a first amendment issue and always viewed pretty liberally and wide reaching, I honestly do not think a league would ever go far with the case because it could not work out in their favor, and that could open up Pandoras Box so to speak (of course it already exists kind of). I know of two photographers who challenged two different leagues, no suit, just banned.

Anyways, the case remember most you can look at is probably IPA (Illinois Press Association) vs. IHSA (Illinois High School Association). It got "settled" by the IPA getting everything they wanted, the court said the IHSA could not stop them from selling prints because it's constitutionally protected and they also could not limit access (this of course we know is different in major sporting events, they can deny anyone they want, which is a good thing!).

The leagues do not care about copyright issues, that's the photographers and agencies responsibility to worry about (unless the photo is league owned). Players Association worries about likeness, leagues worry about trademark. There's literally thousands of sellers illegally selling stolen photos on eBay, the leagues do not care one bit because it's copyright infringement, not trademark.

Alan could get a good amount of jail time, there's more on that list as well as he wasn't the only one doing it, just seems to be the stupidest one who posted it everywhere and didn't do a good job being sly about it. Two print labs that were doing most the printing of stolen pics had to turn over their order history to the feds. I hope they stick it to him and the others hard, some of the boards he was using deleted the photo sections thus destroying evidence, could get interesting.

Doesn't have much to do with negatives though, if you own the rights to an old negative and selling prints nobody is going to sue over it. If you don't own the rights then whoever does might and could come after you, and if it's an orphaned work it's illegal to even scan it. Fun world we live in.

Andrew, those definitely look like Conlons to me! What's interesting is that you don't see a whole lot of shots of his from Ebbets Field - the majority are from Yankee Stadium and the Polo Grounds (And Hilltop Park in the earlier days). Even the ones from Washington Park are few and far between, with the exception of those batting practice photos when Pittsburgh was in town.

Also, your dad had some excellent taste - there's a lot of iconic images in there. I remember getting one image of Mickey Mantle from 1957, but I think that was it. Chuck was super nice to grant access to the place, and the project we did together was fun, though I wish more came from it - I can't believe how long ago it was!!

Conlon Wheat
 

The Wheat is definitely a Conlon. No doubt. A beauty! Thanks for sharing.

I would say that the Landis is most likely not a Conlon. From what I have seen, Charlie was fairly consistent with his player/team identification and other markings on the top edge of his negatives. Much like you see on the Wheat. Then again, there is a chance that he just didn't mark the Landis neg.

Is the Landis the same size as the Wheat? The Wheat should be 4 x 5.

Interesting. I do know we've got two other Dodgers that he shot: Paul Richards and Max Carey but those are from the 30's. Will have to do some more digging when I'm back in the office this week.




Thanks, Graig and I absolutely agree - great stuff. If you take a look online at the old TCMA cards (and they produced a LOT of different sets back in the day), many of those images are still in the archive either as original photos or negatives. Some are offered on Photo Files website, others are tucked away forever most likely.

Still, I'm always coming across images I never knew existed and my jaw hits the floor.

In my mind, the MOST iconic image is this Lou Gehrig that is part of our glass plate negative collection originating from The New York Sun. My father bought this collection containing hundreds of glass plate negs from an antique shop in CT in 1969:

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...1345e8d27c.jpg

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...3fe0867b0b.jpg




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I believe they are both 4x5. Very possible Landis is not a Conlon but I'll have to look more closely sometime this week. Would definitely like to confirm either way.



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Could you PM me the link to the Photo Files website? I am curious to check it out.

Thank you

Check this out. I just found the Landis image attributed to Conlon in this auction listing. Doesn't confirm it 100% for me but it's something:

http://www.robertedwardauctions.com/...ph-collection/

Andrew,
The auction description read that all of the photos included in the lot show either Conlon writing or stamps on their backs. I would say that is a slam dunk. I was wrong in my previous post. It looks like it is a Conlon. I believe the REA auction pre-dated the Rogers shenanigans. So that makes the accurate Conlon designation even more concrete.
Nice detective work.
Your archive looks great. Please post more great images when you can.

I just came across the original neg and that's definitely Conlon's handwriting. It's officially official :cool: .

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4209/...7a32b9a9ea.jpg

Also found this Conlon neg of Del Bissonette of the Dodgers/Robins. Didn't want to remove it from the sleeve but there was a contact print along with it:

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4254/...e31ccdb3_z.jpg

Wow, that is great! Have you gone through your entire archive? Is there a chance
you may find more Conlon original negs or photos?

Going through the entire archive I'm sure would take weeks if not months :( . Definitely more Conlon's to be found. I also went ahead and posted a few prints in the Conlon photos thread.

Gehrig glass
 

High end, single Gehrig on GLASS is very tough for some reason. 1927-30

We’ve got a few. The one I posted previously, plus the one used to create the TCMA postcard below. I believe we have the glass neg used to create the shot below that but would have to confirm:

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...0c8613ffba.jpg

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...1683b3c272.jpg


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Very nice. So they are all Glass vs acetate?

Original negatives- underrated? Show yours
 

Correct. Those are glass but we have several acetate as well. Will try and get a few shots posted when I’m back in the archive on Mon.


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This one is Nice. Would love to see

Original negatives- underrated? Show yours
 

Yep, great shot. I’m 90% positive that’s glass but I’ll confirm and if so will post.


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1927-30 Ruth glass Negative used for notebook
 

Ruth

Notebook
 

Notebook

http://photos.imageevent.com/exhibit...gative%201.JPG

I have the glass plate neg of this Stan Ketchel image. Probably from the Dana Studio in SF.

I have no idea why I bought it or what to do with it. So it sits in a drawer.

This could describe half of what I own :D

Ditto!

Literally have a drawer next to me right now full of glass plate negatives (and 200,000 other types behind me).

Yep, it’s glass. A little distortion here as I’ve got it in a plastic sleeve sitting on a stand:

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...9a565fd8a6.jpg


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I have some large glass slides of Willie Hoppe. Has anyone figured out a good way of getting positive images from these? These two images came from the original auction, but I don't have images of the other three slides.

Yes. Take a shot of the neg with your phone, then use an app like Photoshop Express to invert the colors. That’s what I do.


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Depends on whether you're just wanting the images to show off, or use them for reprinting or other purposes that would require a better quality / hi-res image. If just showing off here, the method Andrew offered, or placing the negative on a light box and photographing. Placing a light source over the negative on a flatbed scanner could work as well, though the results were mixed the few times I've tried that (hard to get even backlighting across larger negatives).

Otherwise, there are a handful of flatbed scanner models that will handle larger negatives, though most are out of production (I believe Epson's V800 model, a slight update from the V700, may be the only mid-level flatbed scanner still in production that is capable of handling larger-than-35mm negatives and transparencies?) Depending on how many you have to scan, investing in specific hardware for the task may or may not be worth it.

Here is a whopper of a post on the few that I have:

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=247848

I would like to create high-quality prints and frame them for my man-cave. I hate to spend $700 on a scanner when I already have two scanners, but it sounds like this is the only solution.

Is there anyone here who is capable and would be willing to create hi-res scans of glass-plate negatives, in exchange for some service I could offer? (like the deal in 'the Godfather')

Scott,

There are not too many flatbed scanners being made anymore designed for film. I have an old Microtek pro film scanner which can do flatbed scans up to 8x10 negatives, including glass. I would suggest calling B&H Photo in NYC as they may be able to find this type for under $400.00. Most of the popular scanners now are set up to scan 35mm negs, transparencies (slides) and medium format of regular film but not glass. I was at a photo expo in NYC last month where I saw a scanner that will handle glass, but it was $1800.00.

You could also pick up a copy of Shutterbug magazine and look at the ads in the back for lab services. You may find one that can do glass. I know of one in Belmont, MA that could probably handle them, but you may be able to find one closer to home.

Thanks. I have a great scanner (Canon 9000F) that does everything BUT large format glass negatives, so I understand what you are saying. I thought for sure I could make the Canon work, but anyone who has ever gone through this will understand the frustration and the impossibility of the task.

I do not collect glass negatives or negatives of any type. I purchased these five because I collect billiard memorabilia, especially if it is related to Willie Hoppe. I had never seen these particular images (nor has anyone else), so I sprung for them at auction about five years ago, and still do not know what the other three look like quality-wise. They were taken in a natural pool room environment (as opposed to professional staged shots or publicity photos), so they are especially appealing to me. I figured I could get some huge prints of the better ones for my pool room, but gave up and put them on ebay.

Now I will remove them and resume the project.

Scott,

I just dropped a note to a pro-lab I use for developing. I will let you know what they say.

Scott,

I am posting this just in case there are others that may wish to use their services. They are a great company that does high quality work. Their specialty is taking digital files and printing them on silver halide fiber paper aka real photo paper with chemicals. Their website is fairly self explanatory, but they are always available to answer questions.

Hello Michael,

We are able to make prints from glass plate negatives. The largest size we can scan at the studio being 11x17. This being said we are very willing to do both the scanning and print of the images at whichever size your friend sees fit. Let us know if you have any other inquiries or questions.


Looking forward to working with you,

Hannah



Digital Silver Imaging

9 Brighton Street

Belmont MA 02478

info@digitalsilverimaging.com

617-489-0035

www.digitalsilverimaging.com

I went to a local photo studio - the kind that does high school graduation photos. I was told that they can scan 4 x 5 negatives and turn them into high quality prints - exactly the same quality as if they had the original negative. You should be able to find someone local. I just had too many to go that route. I had an old canon scanner that worked great, but I can't get the damn thing to work right anymore.

And, if you can find someone who has a darkroom in their basement, most of the old enlargers came with a 4 x 5 negative holder. Many high schools still use film cameras in their classes and still use enlargers. You might actually contact a local high school. The only issue is you won't be able to clean up the image using photoshop, so any scratches, etc. will appear on the print.

A third, and maybe best, option is a place that does fine art printing - a place where a professional photographer would go to have large prints made. There are still photographers who shoot 4 x 5.

Lots of great ideas - thanks.

Have scanned thousands of negatives, glass in the hundreds. Have a restoration guy as well that is cheap ($1-15), overseas.

here's a simple hack for a flatbed scanner: get a piece of 1/4" white Plexiglas, put it over the item on the scanner bed with the lid up, and shine several lights on it. You may have to run it a few times to figure out any hot spots of too intense light but you should be able to get a nice scan of the neg. Then use a 'negative' function in photo software and you will have a positive image.

I bought an Epson 4990. It is an older model but does a great job, though it took some tweaks to make the software work. You can find them on eBay for $125-$175 shipped, though there isn't always one listed so it might take some time.

I do not own a scanner but 1927 Yankees. Came from Henry Yee 10 years ago

Nice pic!

Had no idea that was possible Mike from a picture of a negative. Thank you!:)

What's the significance of a glass negative compared to what I posted above of the 1927 Yankees?

What you posted looks like a copy negative from a glass plate, they used to do it all the time to archive them (bought an archive from the 20/30's and have several very similar type shots) - take a photo of a photo. Glass was just the format widely used until they switched over.

Almost for sure a copy negative.

The notches at the top right are a code identifying what sort of sheet film it is. (From what I see, "commercial ortho" )

While I'm not as familiar with sheet film as I am with movie film, the figures after Kodak look like a circle followed by a triangle. That should be a datecode for 1923, 1943 or 1963 As they recycled codes every 20 years.