Congrats. Statistically, being an outlier, you're a 5%er. Not sure if your local motorcycle club has a patch for that, though. :eek:

Have a great holiday weekend.

Add to that "Why is there no 1955 Topps Mantle?"

Post a Stupid Question - Prewar 101
 

I have a partial set. All PSA. I gotta say this is the most inconsistently graded cards (set) I have encountered. The PSA 7 and 4.5 look very similar. It's all in the details of the crease I'm told. But when you look at a stack and try to blindly order them by grade, you'll see you are waaaaay off from what PSA says. Not in any particular direction either. Could be just me, but I've heard others say similar things.

Mantle was under contract with Bowman at the time.

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There was a thread a couple of weeks ago that had a link to one of Bob Lemke's blog posts where he gave the sales revenue for Topps from 1951-1961, and he had another post that included the sales revenue for Goudey during the 1930s. If we knew how much Topps sold each pack of cards for, and what percentage of that business was baseball cards, then you could get a rough estimate of production for each year.

My question: every time I read about detecting forged baseball cards, there is always something about how modern printing techniques and equipment are different from back then, and knowing those differences can help spot fakes. But other than money, what prevents a forger from buying a printing press from the 1950s, and inks and cardboard from around then, and cranking out a few sheets of 1952 Topps #311s? It seems to me that the knowledge is out there, the equipment and materials are out there, really the only thing that is missing is someone who can tie the two together.

Supposedly there are 60-100 T206 Wagners that have survived. Are there any legitimate guesses to how many were likely printed before it was pulled from production?

Is it a relative percentage to all other T206's, so maybe 1% survived, or higher?

The odds of finding the correct vintage cardboard are slim and none. Topps in all likelihood ordered that custom for them. I worked at an ad agency that had it's own print shop. You would not believe the thousands of different types of stock available to print on. To an expert you'd never fool them with the wrong stock.

That is for sure. I can tell you T201's do not cross over well between PSA and SGC. And no way can the eyeball test see the difference between a 7 and an eight without looking at a large number of either. Between a 6 and 7 it can be tough, usually corners, registration, the fold, centering. And guessing on an ungraded card? Forget it, I give up. One card I sent in came back evidence of trimming but danged if I coud see it, with or without magnification. Still, love the set.

Okay sorry if this crosses the streams on pre/post war...

If as in my estimates T206 was darn close to one of the highest produced sets in card history, but because of barkeeps just sweeping hundreds of them into the trash each night made scarcer by survival in theory. In 100 years does someone see junk wax held in the same regard because it is basically dumped by the ton daily? Really...who is holding junk commons?

I won't be alive to see the day, but it is something I have thought of.

My 2nd question is sadly grading based, which always brings out the TPG hating. Sorry...

Why does PSA sometimes number grade hand cut cards, but not always? I have strip and sheet cut cards with PSA numbers. The growling on BVG is that they will grade sheet cuts and the PSA guys say that with disdain, which is silly because PSA has certainly graded sheet cuts. What is the reasoning on the 50/50 standard on hand cuts with all of the TPGs honestly? It seems all of them either give a grade or an "auth", with no rhyme or reason.

because
 

because kids didn't have to buy a pack of cigarettes to get the card.

If I understand correctly PSA grades certain hand cuts if they were manufactured to be cut. Imagine a card printed on the box of a food product, you likely picturing something with a dotted outline for cutting. It was manufactured to be cut by the collector, thus PSA will sometimes grade it. It's the explanation I've always heard or assume I heard. Don't really know, I'm getting old.

AFAIK, the term goes back to the coin business. There are coin holders made of plastic (vinyl or PVC) that are 2x4 inches, with a pocket on each side. Typically a coin goes in one pocket and a card with description, grade, etc goes in the other pocket, then you fold the holder in half so it's 2x2. The holders are called "flips" because you can flip them open. Eventually the card itself came to be called a flip. By extension, anything with a coin's description and grade came to be a flip. And when card grading came into being, by the same company that was doing most of the coin grading (PCGS-->PSA), the analogy was obvious.

Bill

LOL.....classic.

I have heard this also, however I have PSA graded 1985 Topps Minis in my test collection and as these were swiped from the Topps dumpster in only sheet form and never cut, nor distributed, they are completely sheet cuts.

That is interesting, Bill. Thank you for posting.

Jeez, embarrased...
 

Here is a bonehead question. I won an eBay lot, however I forgot what I put for my max bid was (been out of town and busy). Now that I won the lot I cannot seem to go back and find out what my max bid was - any help? Thanks.

"AFAIK, the term goes back to the coin business. There are coin holders made of plastic (vinyl or PVC) that are 2x4 inches, with a pocket on each side. Typically a coin goes in one pocket and a card with description, grade, etc goes in the other pocket, then you fold the holder in half so it's 2x2. The holders are called "flips" because you can flip them open. Eventually the card itself came to be called a flip. By extension, anything with a coin's description and grade came to be a flip. And when card grading came into being, by the same company that was doing most of the coin grading (PCGS-->PSA), the analogy was obvious. Bill T."

+1 ..........Still kind of don't get it but Thanks for the info....interesting

I have a question. If this is Prewar 101, then what happened to the Prewar 1-100 courses? I'm now feeling a bit overwhelmed with these recently posted questions that delve into the deep profundities of older baseball cards. :confused:

Dan,

If you are overwhelmed, we are all in trouble. Did I say that Prewar 101 was an entry level course? Some folks think that profundity is stupid. Q.E.D.;)

Blue Lou
 

Why do some 1934 Goudey Gehrig #37 have a blue printer mark below the L in Lou on the white border, and some don't?

Prewar 1-100 is learned at HKU!! ... (Hard Knocks University)

My best amateur move (not really a question) might be when I bought an E97 black and White, Irv Young from Terry K, some 16? yrs ago. When told it was Irv, after I bought it, I slyly played like I knew all along.

.

T205 question...I haven't handled many, but is it more common to find them with nice sparkly gold borders? Or with a more dull (oxidized) look? Thanks in advance.

They were printed in one location, I believe American Lithographic Company in NY, and were distributed from two different cigarette packing plants.

I don't know if any are tougher from one location or another.
But I think that might be the case as the plants served different distribution areas. So the player mix may have varied.

I collect most things to include factory differences. I just haven't done a whole lot with T201s yet.

Steve B

Certainly the old technology exists, there was very little difference between the stuff I was around in 79-81 and what was done in the 50's (As far as lithography goes other processes will be harder or easier depending on how important the equipment was to the process and final product. typography from maybe 1700's on? pretty easy to get, Rotogravure as done for newspaper supplements in the 30's? Not at all easy)

As has been mentioned already, finding the exact materials would be a real challenge. Although for 52 Mantle or T206 Wagner money I'm sure someone could give it a really good try.

The difficulty is in producing the color separations and halftones EXACTLY like the originals. Many of the better fakes of cards that have circulated since the 80's are fairly easy to detect since the solid areas especially black borders etc are not solid but screened.

I believe that with an original, it might be possible. But would require a lot of knowledge in several different related but different fields. You'd have to know paper very well to get an excellent match. But to get an exact match might require ordering it to those specs from a paper mill that could do it. Then you'd need to get the inks "right", and while it's not difficult to get close, getting it really close might be hard. The plates for each color would be very difficult to reproduce exactly.


To put it in some perspective.
Leaf or their printer couldn't get the colors or the plates for the solid colors the same at all and they were the manufacturer.
In the junk wax era multiple plants were used, and the huge array of varieties is because they all did things slightly differently. 88 Score are screened differently on the same card, either because they made new masks (The negatives the plates are made from) for later print runs, or sent the original art to at least two different plants.


If the manufacturers can't make exact duplicates of their own stuff...........

Steve B

There are or were likely dealers that ordered more junk wax than the entire production run of T206s. Not that there weren't an awful lot of T206s made.

Even the junk stuff that was fringe sets like Signature rookies or Front Row probably produced more for one set than were made for the tougher backs. SR was usually around 45000 base sets, 1% survival would be 450 cards!

I used to save junk wax commons, then had kids and needed the space more.
There is some "junk" that's not as common as everyone thinks it is.

Steve B

My question
 

OK, here's my question for Frank and Co:

Burdick named T206s, but I believe he did it wrong. I think there should be multiple sets, called 1909-1911 Sovereign, 1909-1911 Old Mill, 1909-1911 Tolstoi, etc. They should each be their own set.

So I guess my question is, for you believers in lumping them all together into one T206 set...does your 1978 Topps binder have OPC and Burger King cards in it? It should by that logic...

And I already know the first response will be that you don't collect 1978 cards... so that response is disallowed. I am looking for somebody to explain their logic to me.

definitely a variety but more tend towards dull, for obvious reasons. It's always a treat to find a sparkler!

Geno: I believe all those companies were owned by one tobacco giant, whereas Topps certainly didn't own Burger King or Zest or in later years Drake's Cakes or Coca Cola.

The Young I recently picked up has a nice sparkly border compared the the one I already had and it does make a huge difference. Thanks for the response. Much appreciated . :)

t206 question...
 

Here's my t206 question I've been thinking about for awhile..... When t206's were printed on sheets, was the entire reverse side of the sheet all one tobacco brand, or where they mixed up with Piedmonts next to Polar Bears and Sweet Caps? ......or has anybody ever seen a severe miscut back with 2 different brands showing?

here's my dumb question, how do you guys add signatures to your posts? I assume you don't type it all in every time and I want to recognize my trading partners who sold me some great cards like a lot of you do.

As a way of redeeming this post: kzoo, it would be massively inefficient to print multiple backs on a sheet, plus it wouldn't make any sense with the different factory numbers. So while I don't have any proof I have never seen a miscut with two different backs and print shop logic would argue against the possibility.

Click on User CP, then in the menu on the left, under Settings & Options, click Edit Signature.

muchas gracias!

"Modern shiny stuff"

I think the article in another thread where the writer mentioned back collecting but said the goal should be a mounted set of all the different fronts pretty much outlines the early thinking and some of the current thinking.

Personally I'd put them as individual sets but under the same major heading like some of the other sets, so T206-1, T206-2 etc. I just kNOW that would be really popular ;)

As far as the 78s go
1) You forgot the Zest soap set :)
2)And the mail in team card sheet
3) Here's the sort of binder you'd need
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Casite-Autom...EAAOSwrURXPgDx

And even that uses what are really three smaller binders........

:D

Steve B

Soaking Question...
 

...Can you soak 1933 (R319) Goudey's to remove paper?:confused:

So PSA and SGC are TPG (Third Party Graders), what happened to first and second party graders?

TPGs are so noted because they are a disinterested third party with the first two parties being the party of the first part, the seller, and the party of the second part, the buyer.

This is a great topic. :) Thank you for starting it Frank. I was always worried about asking questions on the forum. I didn't want to look like a fool. By asking silly questions.

T206
 

Each sheet had a single brand and factory on the reverse.

As for the earlier question about American Beauty, nobody has presented a convincing argument (at least in my mind) why they were cut thinner.

But as an aside, it dawned on me recently that the AB 350 frame was removed, resulting in the AB "no frame" cards, after ALC printers noticed that so many of the AB 350 frame cards (which were cut thinner) were miscut (so that the frame was truncated). Cause and effect.

Edited to add: Thanks Frank. One of the better threads lately.

Who was the first black ballplayer to integrate the American League and who did he play for?
Hint: It isn't Jackie Robinson.

Larry Doby

You only get 50% credit. You didn't answer the whole question,

Oh, sorry. Cleveland Indians.

Are there any surviving Cracker Jack boxes with the card still in them? Hell, are there any Cracker Jack boxes that still exist that would have had a card in them?

I have a stupid question: In the name "Net54" what does the "54"refer to?

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No issues with this issue...if there are any, I will issue an apology
 

I have not soaked 1933 Goudey's, but I do not believe there should be any issue in doing so (depending upon the glue used), nor do I remember anyone on here mentioning having issues with soaking this issue.

Brian

Well Since Jackie played in the National League he obviously wasn't the answer. I submit that it was Moses Fleetwood Walker for the Toledo Blue Stockings in 1884.

http://i3.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/...11/689/f6e.gif

Why are E97 Briggs Black and White called "proofs?"

Larry Doby lived about a mile from me. Same town as Yogi. I heard if you just rang Larrys doorbell he'd come down and sign stuff. Kicking myself I never met the man. Important and badly overlooked.

goose goosage perhaps....or love of the 1954 Topps because who likes mantle

I dont recall there being 'rookie cards' for T206? Are there any HOF T206 'rookie' cards?

Could bring wrong, but I believe the T206 Tris Speaker is his rookie.

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Why aren't the 150 series T206 worth more since they are older than the 350 and the 350 more than the 350-460?? It seems like in almost every other case, all else being equal the older cards are more expensive(33 vs. 34 Goudey Gehrig...)

T206 RC's
 

According to Phil Garry's list
http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=141603
there are three:

Marquard, hands at side,
Frank Baker,
and Zach Wheat.

I take Phil's list to be the authority regarding h-o-f rookie cards.

Not a stupid question. Our old hosting company was Network54.com so the name of our forum "became that" before we did a complete host and s/w update. We kept the "Net54" in the url address because of name recognition. If you click the non sport icon in the far upper right corner of the board you will be taken to the non sports board and that companies hosting site.

How were exhibit cards circulated?


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Everything you need to know about Exhibits:

http://imageevent.com/exhibitman/int...ngexhibitcards

Who holds the patent for the "bobbler", the mechanism that makes bobble heads bobble and not wobble?

I think the guy's name was Robert Bler.

Succinct and interesting read. Thank you!

REALLY dumb Question. Why are T206 Minors worth SMR wise even less than Commons.........Duh because they are Minors???.....Oh wait T205's Minors are worth More than the Commons...........

The T205 minors are a bit tougher than the regular commons, plus they're popular - I think because it's a nice small subset with no really expensive cards.

T206 minor leaguers are pretty much just as common as normal commons, except for the Southern leaguers. At one time, they had higher book values than normal commons, again probably a popularity thing as there's a few subsets by league and team, and only a couple HOFers none of them particularly expensive. Some of them I think are marginally tougher than normal commons.

Steve B

Stupid question. T206 set. It says it ran from 1909-1911. Did they just print the same cards from 1909-1911? Did they have different set series each year?

There used to be this guy named Orv in Belleair, Fl when I was growing up. I was a Jack's Baseball Shop of Clearwater guy, but Orv had a big following with my Largo buddies. Anyway, Orv was in the newspaper and claimed to have an unopened tobacco can that came from the Honus Wagner T206 time. What ever happened to that can? Was it legit? We are talking like 1996 or 1997-ish on that story. My hunch is Orv was a semi-big player in the industry back then and I would be shocked if some of you didn't know him and the story.

Why hasn't someone taken Burdick's classification system and attempted to modernize and improve it?

What was the name of Ty Cobb's first organized team and in what league did they play?

The T206 set print run was from 1909-1911. To compare it to a modern version without going into a lot of detail, it would look like this.

1909 - Series one - known as the "150" series
1910 - Series two - known as the "350" series
1911 - Series three - known as the "350-460" or to some collectors, the "460" series

Not all the same T206s were printed from series to series. Some players did carry over into other series, while new versions of a player's cards were added into the next year's series. This is why some players have multiple cards (portrait or action version) in the three year print run. Other players were cut from production altogether after the first year.

Who was best man at John McGraw's wedding?

How many women have married more than one Heisman Trophy winner?

My question above regarding E97 Briggs is something I am truly curious about. In most cases, the black and whites have a few copies of the same player, and I can't see any change from one to the other, like you would expect with proofs. They look to me like black and white versions of E97s with a blank back, not "proofs." Are they really proofs, and if not, why are they called proofs?

Proof is in the puddle mud
 

I think the black and white E97's were identified long ago as proofs because they were a mystery issue with obvious ties to the E97's. I imagine they were seldom seen in the hobby, so multiple copies of the same player in a sense didn't seem to exist. You have to remember before the internet information just didn't percolate to the surface as quickly as it does now. The square E254 Colgan 'proofs' have also long been labelled as such, and they share the same images as the E254 set and have blank backs, thus sharing these common denominators with the E97's.

So if nothing else, tradition holds strong. I have been trying to debunk the 'generic' label for the majority of the cards in the E91 sets for years, but sometimes old labels have a way of clinging, just like a joey inside Momma Kangaroo's pouch.

Brian

The Brits have tried with something called the World Tobacco Index. Beckett and COMC are in the midst of creating large databases of cards electronically.

How do you...
 

What do you type in the search box to keep any T206s from coming up on ebay? I'm done with the set (minus the Big 4) and I'd like to not have to scroll through a zillion t206s constantly.
How do you keep a card seller who puts his entire inventory on ebay, every week, every year, with prices so high that no one buys them, from showing up in your search? What do you type in?

Thanks, I know this was covered in the past but I missed it.

type in what you want to search for, then a space, then "-t206" or the minus sign and what ever you don't want to search for.

Brian, that is a great answer. At least I know they aren't really proofs, just called that. I can live with that.

Great thread. Ok, I think I have figured out all the BST abbreviations correctly identified.

FS - for sale
WTB - wanted to buy
WTTF - wanted to trade for
FT - for trade

Are there others that I am missing?

OK, dumb question for the day (posed to me many times over the years by non-believers):

Why do grown men collect baseball cards?

Space considerations.
 

.....

...they're easier to hide from the wife , unlike my 1950's run of Playboy.

...

Because we grown men:
- Love the game basebal,
- Have the "collector" gene in our body,
- Enjoy reliving the good times of our youth, and
- Need/want a healthy escape from the trials & tribulations of everyday life.

What is the exact reasoning behind something being considered an XRC (or even an unofficial RC) vs a regular RC? I understand that a regional issue might not qualify, but I also see national issues that don't qualify as well. For example, Pee Wee Reese is in both the 1941 Play Ball and 1941 Double Play sets. The Play Ball is considered the only "official" rookie, while the Double Play is an "extra" rookie card. As far as I know, both sets were nationally available, and the Double Play set is a bigger set by number of cards.