You are absolutely right and I remember hitting the brakes and looking at it while going through Ebay. Its shows it as ended and around $80+, did somebody bite on it or did they pull it?

No, they didn't pull it. He ran it as a 5 day auction and it ran it's course.

David I agree with you that its a crap sale. Before I joined this board and learned more about the backs and front combos (thanks Sean and Ted) I would have considered crap like that.

Mic drop, indeed. Case closed. Pretty sad grown men took time from their days to argue over such trivial crap. The internet is a cesspool.

I concur.

kinda like a jacuzi.

it's all fine and dandy when there's bubbles...

but once those jets stop working, people realize it's just warm community bathwater....

All of this, really? It's not against the law to lie (commit fraud)?

I believe PSA should use better wording on their flips for counterfeit cards. Maybe something like "counterfeit". There is no question mark needed. If they can't tell it's counterfeit then they shouldn't be charging for their services. Or they should send it back at no cost and say they don't know what they are doing and have no clue but leave their flip out of the equation. I would imagine countless people have gotten screwed by their "?"..
I have always disliked their ambiguous wording on fake card flips. That being said, they are a great marketing company. They do a good job in grading, overall, too...imo.

FWIW, BGS would also return this as "questionable authenticity". The reason being, a card printed in someone's basement is distinctly different than a mass produced reprint of known origins. Equally worthless, but the nonetheless different. Questionable flip or not, some idiot would have spent 100x it's true value. Assigning any blame to PSA is absurd, but par for the course.

You completely took what I said out of context. I didn't say "It's not against the law to lie" "I said in Most cases its not against the law to lie" BIG DARN DIFFERENCE. You can lie to your wife, you can lie to pretty much anyone as long as its not to a Federal agent, to misrepresent for profit (Fraud), or to cover for a criminal act. I have looked this listing over a dozen times and he didn't lie about anything. Vague? Absolutely, but no lying.

You and I share the same opinion, Leon, so welcome to the cesspool. :D

And, if M. Browne wants to continue to participate in this thread, he really needs to have his full name in his post, but for now I'll assume the 'M' stands for Meathead.

yes...this is the whole point here...PSA could be doing a better job with their verbiage to avoid deception...that's all.

The fact that they hide behind legal mumbo jumbo certainly doesn't make me like them any more.

so youre saying youre not a fan of just about any and every publicly traded company ever and the same goes for just about any document that someone else has handed you to sign. got it.

heres a psa: psa should be the least of your worries. and dont get on that rollercoaster! and dont you dare look at the back of a (insert favorite mlb team here) ticket!

No...but I will say I am not a fan of legal, double speak mumbo jumbo written with the intent to deceive and confuse.

And I'm not sure why you're even here...do you collect pre WW II cards???

really?

C'mon now, can't we all just get along?
This thread is about a pre-war card but is not entirely a pre-war conversation. If this side were very strictly kept to only pre-war cards themselves it would be a less fun place. Topics surrounding pre war seem fair game as well as a few off topics here and there (in moderation). I think summing it up (but still open for debate)-

Many (and myself) think there could be better wording on the ?AUT flips.
Many think it's fine the way it is.
Most think lawyers have something to do with this issue. :)


.

sorrybob...that was uncalled for...I'm going to take a time out now!:o

Fixed it

Thanks, Pat! :D

I would be fine if they just put N4 on the flip. At least that way if a potential buyer didn't know what that meant, they could go to PSA's website and at least see it's a counterfeit.

"N-4 Questionable Authenticity - This is the term used when a card is counterfeit"

we're cool, pete!

just a message board and nothing should be taken too seriously.

time in.

to summerize the thread:

1. wagner can not be a broadleaf
2. the flip should be changed to not dupe idiots
3. terminology used is legal mumbo jumbo
4. they prolly wont change it due to monetary making and liability issues
5. fine print still blows
6. no one feels good defending psa

did i miss anything?

Pretty much hit the nail on the head and saved many folks several pages of repetitive post.

YUP, I blame the lawyers!

lawyers, guns and money.

Sex, Drugs, and Rock & Roll \m/\m/

If nothing else PSA should not even send out a flip or make the flip a different color so as not to give the counterfeiters real flips for their trade.

what does sgc/bvg do?

(not knocking, i seriously do not know)

BVG would absolutely be questionable authenticity.

i was asking in regards to a flip?

do they provide the exact one that would go in the holder or is there a completely seperate form they return that doesnt resemble a flip?

i think i worded that decently...

No, the provide a little slip of paper with boxes they check - they do not provide a flip like PSA.

so. screw the wording on the flip?

just dont even give one?

take the few extra seconds to internally "recall the flip" if its a fake and check a box.

stop making sense!!

My belief is SGC would be-

X Counterfeit COU

If there is no question it is fake that is their policy acccording to the phone call I just had with their customer service.


If there is some question as to it's authenticity they use-

N . Cannot/Do Not Grade.. NO


.

A PSA flip didn't cause this one to get bid up over $1,000...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1909-T206-Ho...0AAOSwoudW2TnE

If you want to blame anyone, blame human nature and why people buy lottery tickets or go to casinos. It's all the same phenomenon.

"If you see a T206 Wagner on ebay selling for less than $100,000, then it is a fake 100% of the time." This is a fact. If you find yourself struggling with this fact, and trying to think of exceptions to the rule, then you are one step closer to bidding on this crap than you should be. You will never be the guy that discovers such a once-in-a-lifetime find on ebay.

"This thread is about a pre-war card"

Well, not really. It's probably c. 2015. Although PSA could have been clearer on the matter.


And I'm still curious about the bidders. To repeat a question from my last post, if they thought that it was real, why did bidding end up at $80? If I thought there was a real Wagner to be had, my bids would have been some orders of magnitude higher than that. Say this Wagner would be worth 800k (number made up for sake of argument, actual number doesn't really matter). If there's even a 1% chance that this is real you should be willing to bid up to $8000 on it. So the bidders are saying that they can tell with 99.99% certainty that it's fake, but that they're not QUITE sure? Really?

Fixed it
 

Pat, your post #98 made me LOL :)

I agree with many who have said that the wording can be confusing, misleading. Most wouldn't know what "? AUTHTCT" is. Hell, I didn't recall seeing that before and initially thought the flip was a fake :confused:

Not blaming PSA, just think they could word it better - especially since the N4 code that references whatever ? AUTHTCT specifically notes counterfeit.

That's what bugs me, too. The total irrationality of it. Like an admission it's fake but the uncontrollable urge to spend money anyway.

If that's the case I'll edit my original posts.

Another one

http://www.ebay.com/itm/t206-honus-w...AAAOSwWntXMm79

.. and then posed as "unknown/questionable"

If someone actually pays 9k for that I think we're going to see a lot more sellers submitting fake Wagners and re-selling on Ebay. Begsu's suggestion of not issuing a flip with these, and just checking box that says questionable authenticity on a piece of paper seems like an easy way to avoid this situation.

They could use common sense and put COUnterfeit on the flip but then again, why make it easy?

I'll pass. I'm still saving up for the Cincinnati Wagner.