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I'm glad to hear the buyer was made right.
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Maybe it's time to go back and enjoy collecting cards like it was in the Pre-Grading Days. Going to shows or going on Ebay and buying raw cards and staying away from having to have the best cards available. Seems it would be more enjoyable not having to always second guess the card I just spent a thousand or two is altered or switched or a fake...etc. Any time there is big money involved someone will find a way to cheat.
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edit: was asked to remove for a couple of days |
Yeap where there is smoke there is more smoke. The Orr doesn't look right at all, as I pointed out before the Bird Magic perforations are off center so maybe it was just a self-bumped 9.
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I'm just a small time collector, but this is great news! :)
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please edit your post to remove my original post please in accordance w/ helping catch this guy. |
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thank you sir.
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This is pretty damned scary.
I'm sure this is going to be a really stupid question but, does a low end t206 collector (PSA1-4) have to worry about this? Not exactly high end items but there's still money to be made there right? Again apologies for the dumb question but I'm being serious. |
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have seen a few goudys in fake holders in the psa 4 - 5 range....
but I do feel bad for this guy. it's apparent that they were the middle men in all of this. ebays says they are officially off the hook as its been 30 days, but as for who ends up holding the bag... is it paypal or them? feel really bad if it's them.... |
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exactly, peter.
as soon as he told me that he never had them, i knew the rest were fake immediately. I tried to convey that to him, but it was only met w/ insults, curse words and threats from him. he did apologize today when he found out 4 other cards were fakes. his wife is not happy. |
Stupid question, but the casino industry is able to make "money" with chips that are basically counterfeit proof. The diamond industry engraves serial numbers on the diamonds. Is there not a better way? Like microchipping a case with the card? I mean, if I can find my iPad anywhere in the world, or scan a lost puppy to locate its home, can an industry leader not microchip the holder so it can be verified immediately? Like a digital fingerprint of some sort? Put this in their "premium pricing" grading model, and they increase profit margins overnight, no?
Obviously counterfeiters will be on the forefront, but doesnt a hologram and a sonic seal --whatever that is-- seem sorta 90s nostalgic? |
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especially the hologram part. |
The new holders are much better, no?
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There was a case in Colorado a couple of years ago. This old guy named Mayo M got caught up for selling the fake cards on craigslist. The ahole down in mexico advertises on CL looking for greedy people to sell his fake goods. Then greedy seller is caught holding the bag. He had a psa registry called the mayo macneil collection of serial numbers.
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I hadn't heard about it, but can anyone post pics? i'd like to see the case in it's entirety if so... |
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Laughing out loud Cough, cough. |
Let's say they are motivated by money. I can think of three ways off the top of my head to turn your laughing -- and I have my strong opinions about CLCT as well -- into an even greater profit/growth industry for them.
I mean, the pricing models one could come up with to make money off their grading oligopoly is insane. The reason you laugh -- they are like an airline comany-- is because they are in an oligopolistic market. Near monopoly, perhaps. I know why you laugh. Trust me, I know. Let's assume they are able to focus on the business rather than the scurrying cockroaches coming out of the corners, the evolution of fraud is an evolution of profitability for an industry leader. They could change some sort of pricing models here, introduce a new technology and boom, growth and margins are manufactured overnight. |
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Still no half grade fakes reported...POP is so low..good luck with a PSA 8.5 Mantle 1952 Topps with an owner registry..
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Meanwhile, the end consumer is buying and trading authenticated slabs with sonic sealing and holograms. Sort of like running your PC on Windows 95, no? Or do people even use PCs anymore? Amazing how services/products can become obsolete so fast.....I do wonder if there is a business opportunity there.....(It's HUGE given the brand....and it would allow them to perhaps undo some prior wrongs). |
Perhaps, although they have already hit up the "installed base" to use an analogy for half grades, and I suspect quite a number of folks have sent in cards for the newest generation of holder even if it isn't much of an improvement in terms of security. Not sure how many times you can go back to that well.
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The hologram and sonic seal, based on this example, seems like it's not reliable anymore. And if I want to ensure my $1000 baseball card is legit, I am willing to pay a small premium for the revolutionary grading going forward. And if I need to sell one with the old holder, well, I sure do hope the hologram and the sonic seal are good enough.....or else......cha ching. |
can see a tad of frosting in that top right hand corner of the mantle, so it maaaaay be a little bit securer, i guess.
it's certainly a lil more noticeable than what was on the one i purchased. does anyone here know anything about the sonic welding process? curious if you can re-weld a previous welded spot? is the cloudy spot/corner from the case being cracked or is that simply some adhesive that has clouded up. they used to just use krazy glue and it was extremely easy to spot... if it's the adhesive, then they've gotten much better at concealing that part of it.... edit: imagining a mental picture of all these guys down in mehico setting up test runs w. all sorts of glue imported from all over the place |
That's disturbing .... I guess my confusion would be that there isn't really a way to ever know that your card that you have in hand is the initial card that was graded unless you "re-submit" the already graded card? Because who ever was doing this scam are removing the card with a lesser of a grade card and we would never ever know because the serial number will always be correct..... This sucks. I buy a lot of graded cards from psa too. So why were you sending in the already graded mantle anyways? Just wondering.
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condensed version from earlier:
was gonna send it in for a reholder, but then when I tried to add to the registry and the guy that owned the legit one said he still had it, psa sent me a label and asked to send it in on their dime. here's your cue 1952boytoncollector... ; ) |
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The Goodwin Mantle
The holder was not even sealed. I find it more than a little coincidental an auction company owned by PSA's biggest rival was selling a terribly bad holdered Mantle. Everyone I have spoken to that saw the card in person said there is no way that it should have made it to Bill's catalog. They said it is nowhere near the quality of the older slabbed Mexico fakes.
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I guess I can breathe a little easier ;) |
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Just going with
What I have been told by people with way more knowledge of the situation than either of us have. And I had no reason to believe I was being lied to at the time.
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I guess our guy in Mexico? (hi Copperfield) is still at it. Yes, he goes by Copperfield.
He interrupted my lunch pizza buffet to call me a little while ago. i had seen about 5 stupid looking calls (Magic jack, 5 numbers) on my cell and didn't know what it was, it was him. He says he will never get caught as he is too good. I told him good for him, karma will catch up. He said he hasn't had bad karma and I said so what. At any rate, I guess he is still at it the way he was before. I ended our call as I was sitting in front of the restaurant talking to him and was really getting hungry. He is brash. |
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Come on Leon show the E90-1 Young one more time. Peter deserves it! |
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Slabs are most likely polycarbonate (Lexan) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultrasonic_welding Rewelding in a different fashion or even the same might be possible, but would be a bit of a challenge. Assuming a take of 150K a month or better, there are very few technological hurdles you could put in the way that would be all that hard to defeat. Even the treasury believes that counterfeit notes are available very soon after the release of the new designs. Steve B |
Just read the entire thread all I can say OMG. I have some graded cards in the new PSA holders and I don't see how they can be tampered with . The older holders you can pop them open and reseal easy like that 67 mantle . But that 52 mantle 8 not sure those can be opened or resealed or tampered with.
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This stuff is scary. Makes me want to stop buying any PSA cards and stick with "buy the card not the grade" only in BGS holders, which seem damn near fake-proof and tamper-proof. Seems like FAR less risk.
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1.) cracking a PSA case, inserting a lesser grade card, then resealing the case; still same cert #, same authentic PSA label, same authentic PSA hologram 1.A). same thing above, but inserting a counterfeit card 2.) manufacturing a molded plastic case (the same as PSA's); grabbing the cert number from an existing high grade card, counterfeiting the PSA label, and inserting a lower grade card 2.A) same thing but inserting a counterfeit card So yes, buying the card, not the holder resolves most of 1 and 2, but doesn't resolve 1A and 2A. Which gets back to my question I had earlier. Is PSA addressing the card when Bob sends back the resealed holders? If this is an organized criminal enterprise, I would suspect it's a lot more efficient to manufacture a PSA case and copy flips, then to crack hundreds/thousands of cards and reseal. With the amount of time involved, I would assume the dollar value of these cards has be north of $1K. |
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These PSA horror stories have been ongoing for a long time now and PSA has done virtually nothing of any substance to prevent tampering/faking. I mean, holograms? Come on. To me, this doesn't bode well for their brand in general, and long-term it is due for a huge decrease as people start to realize their product is the most easily faked/tampered-with. How can you trust ANY PSA graded card when it's so easy to fake them and/or tamper with them. My point stands. I would rather have an authentic card in a BGS holder than a PSA graded card that you have no idea whether it is real or fake/tampered with. I know BGS is an inferior TPG, but their slabs are 1,000x safer. I mean, what good is your grading reputation when the slabs you put them in can be faked and/or tampered with? It completely defeats the purpose and undermines the "sanctity" of the grade. |
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P.S. Still waiting on that ONE instance of a completely fake or tampered-with BGS slab... |
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PSA is clearly the best TPG at actual grading, but if you can't trust whether or not any of their slabs are real or un-tampered-with, and you have to run in circles trying to authenticate the freaking slabs, what good is that grading reputation. Serious question. I mean, think about that. You have to jump through hoops to AUTHENTICATE THE FREAKING SLABS. What good is a TPG if you have to AUTHENTICATE THE FREAKING SLABS. I get that people want to protect their investments by defending PSA, but you better start caring about this issue because it's only getting worse, which WILL affect PSA's reputation in the future, which WILL affect the value of your PSA graded cards in the future. Take heed.
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'...PSA case to china and had hundreds of thousands reproduced for almost nothing.' This was 8+ years ago. I mean, you have been here since 2009 and have never heard of fake and/or tampered-with PSA slabs by the thousands. |
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the new holder PSA came out with in 2014 is suppose to be tamper proof. its harder to get apart then a BGS slab. only way to open a new PSA holder is to completely destroy the holder. I seriously doubt this scam artist that's doing this can reseal a new PSA holder with it looking like bobs 67 mantle. I am pretty confident buying expensive cards in the newer PSA holders.
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How can we ever truly know that all of these so-called vintage cards weren't really created yesterday with a vintage press, using vintage ink on vintage cardboard? Besides, I'm pretty sure we're all living in the Matrix anyhow. |
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It's all pretty ironic as the original impetus for third party grading, supposedly, was the rampant fraud in the 80s and early 90s.
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Aren't we nearing an inevitable end to this hobby as we know it.
With 3d printers as they are, how long before people will be able to replicate any and every thing? Who can't see a future in 25 years where a person can duplicate a 52 mantle that would have no physical differences whether it was real or 3d printed? |
I am sure the exact same sentiment was uttered by someone somewhere on March 3, 1956 . . .1966 . . . 1976 . . . 1986 . . . 1996 . . . and 2006.
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