I hear this a lot on both forums, but IMO, not much relevance for shilling by looking at % of bids. I also have a very high percent with PWCC, but that's because they have the cards I want, and I can snipe, and I don't have to stay up until 3:00 AM while an auction closes three different times.

They have the cards you want? Yeah, they have such an eclectic selection of cards found nowhere else on eBay, I can understand how you could mainly bid on their auctions; tough to find a PSA 5 1953 Topps Mantle any place else. As for transparency, Brent comes onto Net 54, gets caught in lies, leaves. His auctions are filled with fraud. Very transparent. Transparency really helps.

well you can find many of the same graded cards on ebay with BIN's that 90% of the time are for sale and/or the seller wants more than what they would sell for at a PWCC auction..so yeah you can buy away with BINs and avoid being shilled up to amount less than you will pay with BIN

LOL....How about the rare 1968 Roberto Clemente PSA 4? Yea - I never got that either. There are many sellers on Ebay with good cards. Yet don't seem to get the run-up that PWCC does. Not that I'm knocking it. I'm actually rather envious.

There are also several other sellers that run .99 cent auctions that DO NOT get the PWCC run-up. I know that for a fact - I am one of them.

right but you don't sell psa 5.5 green cobbs and psa 7 Aarons 4 or 5 times a year for example..you do see them on BIN, at least the Aarons from time to time..usually asking for more than the final hammer on a PWCC auction... Plus you do consign to PWCC your pricier cards so not sure why are talking down PWCC when you use them yourself like those T206 HOFs you couldn't sell on net54 ..

I'm not talking them down. I like Brent. I think he runs a top notch organization. People are stating facts though. Some of the auction results seem a little odd. Is it a crime to speak the truth? State facts?

PS - the only reason I consigned the Cy Young to him was to prove to you that I could get more on Ebay than what your lowball offer was. So, YOU were the only reason I sent it to him.

LOLOLOL

Facts are real bastards.

Everyone was envious of Mastro too. And many on Net 54 defended them from the pre-investigation stage, through indictment and sentencing. How else do you think fraudsters can be so successful ripping people off so blatantly in this hobby? It's not because the average collector is highly intelligent.

Everyone was envious of Madoff too. From what I recall there wasn't as much defending of Mastro and gang as there was a call to allow justice to work. That is the same as you defending the people you do. No different.

PS.....I am not defending some bidders and their issues in the current auctions being talked about.

It couldn't be more different, actually, again. My motives in defending people are based on the oath I take to assist people in asserting their constitutional rights. People defended Mastro for many other reasons.

In other words you defend criminals who do bad things in our hobby. I get it, actually we all get it.

And here I thought you only done it for the large amounts of cash they pay you.:D

With Mastro he seemed to have 2 types of friends. The ones he completely screwed over and the ones that got the spoils from his costumers that he screwed over. From reading all the threads on here about the huge scam he run for many years there where both those types of friends on this forum and unfortunately a few customers.

Reality, not revisionist history:

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...t=81430&page=2

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...ghlight=mastro

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=208076

First of all don't give me the crap about constitutional rights. Every person has a right to a lawyer in court. Secondly, you can throw out all of those threads and I am not going to read them. You show me specifically where I said any of those guys didn't do anything wrong and I will say I was wrong (something you don't even know how to do let alone do)

And why is it you have so many hobby'ists as customers, Mr. Criminal Defense Attorney? Seems a bit odd to go after some of the same people you take money from...or maybe you go after others to divert attention from your card doctor clients?

I wouldn't want to read those threads either if I were you.

Waiting for these answers Jeff....they aren't going away either.

Here is you diverting attention from one of your clients who has allegedly made falsely stamped cards.
http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=208345


.

I went back and read some of those posts just for kicks. You are right and I was wrong. Before any indictments I was defending them but never did I say they absolutely did nothing wrong. As far as I know, at the time, no one knew for sure. I wanted the justice system to play out and it did. They are being punished for their crimes. That is a good thing. That is how we learn.
I was hoping for the best for them and it turned out they were liars and thieves. I had considered them hobby friends.....what more can I say?

Now back to those nagging little questions I had.....

+1

The PSA 4 in Goldin auction is over 5k already. Guess Cobb is catching the Mantle fever :D

pete g has a nice 55 on ebay right now for a seemingly good price...swarm swarm!!!!!!

Leon, first you'd have to promise not to ban me no matter what I say, under any circumstance. I don't want to end up like Rob Dewolf or Wonka (who is still banned while a host of miscreants on Net 54 are members in good standing).

Care to answer you defending card doctors while you go after them on the board? And what about the diversions to take the heat off of your client who submitted cards that were fake for grading? And how about your client with the fake Magies..... I am sure you are doing it all for the good of the hobby, right?

I know it's not easy to actually debate someone out here when you don't have the ability to ban them. But this is Net 54 and not the real world, so you get to decide who stays and who goes, thus determining how the debates go as well. I'll discuss anything you want to discuss within attorney ethics rules -- as long as you promise not to ban me, no matter what comes out.

Just answer the questions....

Jeff I would not take this as a promise to not ban. :D

http://i1.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/...22/491/BTM.jpg

Tom C

Here I am, the "real possible buyer".... If you actually have some "high grade, nicely centered cards", feel free to contact me with scans and prices and I will evaluate the opportunity. If not, please refrain from attempting to act like blowhard on some online forum.

I won these auctions because I wanted them more than anyone else. I don't shill, I buy cards at prices that I feel are appropriate, whether you do or not. I have collected for years and purchased cards from multiple sources including ebay, Memory Lane, Heritage, Greg Bussineau. I have bid at Mile High and SCP as well.

If any of you have a problem with the way I bid or who I choose to bid with, too bad. I deal with people I trust and Brent/PWCC Auctions is one of them.

My email is jcornett@liquidity-partners.com.

** BTW, the reason my account has bid retractions was over a heavy disagreement with a seller I was bidding with. My confidence in their service was affected so I canceled my bids with them to protect myself. The seller later apologized, and I later won all the cards that I bid on in which the bids were retracted.

Nice response and thanks for the quick phone call just now. As I said, and you are very cool with, your name needs to be out here in this kind of post....per the rules. So it is Jus.tin C0rn.ett....thanks man!!

Justin, are you the one who bid up that T206 Home Run Baker card to $6k?

Because if so,you may be getting some of those opportunities that you mentioned. :D

And also, welcome to the board. :)

I like this statement and all, but PWCC doesn't own any of the cards they sell. They are merely a broker. Subject to whatever whims the consignor has on his items. But hey, as long as you are happy.....

yep, that was unfortunate. you live and learn i guess

but i will also say that i wasnt the only one that wanted the card... i was just willing to pay a little more than the under bidder

yeah psa 4's and above are hot for the green cobb.

Its Christys, not Cy Young...I have no idea what Cy Young you are talking about..


.i do remember you netting less than you were asking for them on net54 (and to me )when all said and done actually..so you were highballing the cards .....if you want to talk facts..


It looks like I was wrong as far as not making an offer on one of the cards , I did offer 400 + paypal fees on the Christy Mathewson portrait but I said to send it to PWCC and I would offer more because of ebay bucks and incentives I didn't get with a direct deal..i don't think that's a 'lowball offer when I am within 10% of the net price to the seller after fees on a card going for 500 or less....if it is then I guess you call it highballing if the seller wants 10% more direct than what the seller nets at auction...or on the other card he had for sale in which he wanted 20% more than what he got on the card in net after the auction.



Part of the disagreement in price was that bobby said that SGC grades command a premium over PSA in prewar !

"I usually like PSA prices. For T206's though, SGC is king. They usually command higher prices"

First we are talking about Christy's not Cy Young...not sure what you are talking about for the young.

haha and the fact you tried to sell them for weeks and weeks on net54 and kept saying would send them to auction ..and I kept asking you to make good on sending them to auction......so maybe I was the reason finally sent them to auction because was turning into a red lennox cobb..week after week....thank you for finally sending them....though you did get less net than you asked on net54, . and you do agree they were not shilled....



this is how all the cards you said did with PWCC including the mathewsons...funny no comments about saying got a ton on those cards or saying I made a low offer or anything....just this..

"Some of my stuff did OK...got killed on a couple....I think I can do just as good as he on minor stuff....still will use him for sets and Canadian cards (since I don't wish to ship international)"



I found the thread-- he said he was sending to consignment and 2 weeks later he still there with ttts.....he says had them priced at VCP so I guess everyone was lowballing him..... yeah IM the reason he consigned them.. lol..

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=197853

after price reductions..he asked 800 for the black hat and got less at auction 740 minus 13.5% in fees ($640)

http://www.pwccauctions.com/item.php?item_no=1064344

and for the portrait after price reductions he asked for 500 and got 510 minus 13.5% in fees ($442)

Looks like PWCC wasn't shilled there even though I assume many bidders there have 70% with PWCC but I didn't check..

Justin, welcome to the board and way to go to keep the card market red hot! Blue chip cards will always demand a premium, and there are many of them still way undervalued! I took heat and then had to read about (SCD weekly newspaper) how I over paid on a Joe Dimaggio zeenut with coupon when I won it for 12k and at thetime it booked for 2k. Well, price guides changed and should I say the guides caught up with actual market prices. When I sold the card it went through a live auction where it fetched way more than what I had paid.

Seems like we read the samething everytime a T206 Wagner sells. Has anyone ever lost money selling one of those??????

I agree with you Justin that PWCC is a good place to dealwith. Its refreshing to still see a trueauction through Ebay as now its mainly BIN with make an offer listings. PWCC follows all the Ebay rules and it seems that arguements made against them should be more withthe Ebay system.

If I was Brent I would ban anyone who retracts a bid more than once unless they have a good excuse and they conmunicate with them. They should look at every bidder on a per case basis. Plus, PWCC should ban any wiseguy, or should I say problem person as that should shut them up. I think many people don't always "practice" what they preach! They talk bad about you, and yet they bid in your auction...call their bluff and ban them if their facts don't add up!

Wish I still had my PSA 6...:(

Just like any other auction house where a consignor might call a friend and have his friend bid on an item for him? It is risky to do that, but perfectly legal. As long as the person who wins the item pays for the item in full including auction house fees, it is legal. Risky, but legal.

Why do you believe that it matters or not to buyers if PWCC sells their own private items or if they represent the owners of the cards and charge a fee for their service? Just because PWCC has chosen broker sports cards on ebay and you has a loyal group of buyers does not make them less legitimate. I can assure you Memory Lane, Heritage, SCP and other auction houses have loyal followings as well.

Personally, I use PWCC almost exclusively to purchase items on ebay because I buy all sorts of cards from all sorts of sports and am a busy person. I do not want to spend hours upon hours searching ebay listings looking for items that might or might not be a fit for my collection. I find it very easy to type in PWCC into ebay search and sort what I might be interested in that day. Its very simple and easy for a collector like me to find items this way as compared to searching online forums or contacting friends, past acquaintances or other auction houses who might or might not have what I am looking for at the time.

Any speculation as to what my motives are or why I use certain sellers more than others is pure conjecture and quite frankly a waste of everyone's time. If I am willing to pay more than you, I will win, period. If am am not the highest bidder, I won't win. It is real simple. Some of the folks here that are alleging shilling and bid retractions have not a clue what the 'real story' is are likely just pissed because they don't have a green cobb now and want one at a below market price. But of course, that speculation is conjecture on my part and really doesn't hold any weight.

So yes "as long as I am happy" I will use whoever I want to buy or sell items for me. It saddens me to think that Brent or my reputation is at question here when in reality, it could not be farther from the truth. Collecting cardboard is supposed to be fun...

I do not see any further need to justify my actions here on this board, but some of the folks just need to grow up and worry about their own issues. Stop trying to create conspiracy theories to explain random market fluctuations and record prices. The real reason prices are going up is there are buyers that are willing to pay more for cards than have been paid in the past. When the buyers are outnumbered by the sellers, prices will go down. Its called a 'market' and it is quite simple.

Questioning you was never my intent, and I am sorry that you took it that way. Was merely speculating along with others on the various pricing jumps of cards. You explained it beautifully, however, whenever someone sees a card that "normally" sells for $2,000 all of the sudden sell for $6,000+, it naturally raises eyebrows. That is all - don't take it to heart. In fact, in would be unnatural to NOT question a card that has a set price range all of the sudden go for triple above that figure.

I read all of that above me, checked the bid history on the Baker, saw where you got taken behind the woodshed, and put my head in hand.

Jeeze Rob everyone's on a witch hunt today. You seem to be the prime suspect. Not sure why................(Serious).

Comes with the territory. I guess people don't like to be questioned/confronted?? I have no clue...

It seems as though we've all been there. I know I have although I'm sure you've been on the block longer. Best thing to do now is to just let them have their fun and not respond.

that would be a nice card to see..



to the OPs...when faced with facts its hard to respond...

Always love Jeff's input, saying exactly what he thinks. I don't know about shill bidding in the PWCC auctions, but that's where I recently got my '39 V351 Ted Williams rookie for less than half of my max bid, so PWCC certainly doesn't see the max bids.

May collecting bring you joy and keep you safe from the triple sss's out there (scammers, schemers and skunks),

Larry

+1 there. Centering is increasing in importance due to its effect on eye appeal at an astonishing rate, plus its awfully hard from the scan to see why the card didn't grade at least ExMt. Time will prove its value, and not to much of the former at that.

Best to all,

Larry

As was said in a remake of the song, "What the World Needs Now" in the '70's,

"I think it's when somebody's sick."

Larry

And I thought I was articulate. Leon just said it better than I ever could!

Highest regards,

Larry

Um, you were actually the OP.

And yeah, it's good that one of the odd PWCC bidding situations was cleared up. Problem is there are plenty more and a suspicious track record. Certainly because one bidder claims his purchases were legitimate (and I have no reason to suspect otherwise) does not mean that all the bizarre doings at PWCC are entirely legit. I would like to think that we've learned something in the past ten years of card collecting history.

+1 there also. My two experiences with PWCC have been excellent, and the maturation of the hobby--basically attracting what I call the "big boys" to whom spending $16,000+ is like my spending $500--has been greatly accelerated, I believe, by the internet. We're simply catching up to where rare and significant coins and cars are in far less time.

Go ahead and post, Brent--we're certainly not all opposed to PWCC. Personally I enjoyed meeting and talking with you at the National.

Sincerely,

Larry

Why is Wonka banned? I could understand his posts.

Hello Justin. Well, nobody's called you out yet so I'll be the first. 18 bid retractions in 6 months? So your saying all with one seller? and none with PWCC?

An issue that has been raised in this thread is bidding at the top end of an auction to find the underbidders max bid; then retracting to expose the underbidder as the winner. -***o ebay username has been exposed as someone doing this multiple times, but NOT on PWCC auctions (just to be clear). I'm assuming this is not the type of retraction you have?

I also do a majority of my bidding with PWCC, and Brent is aware of my disgust with retractors. I'm confident he has a sound policy to address these issues with e-bay's support.

I had one retraction with the PSA 8 53 mantle at Pwcc a few months ago where I made a mistake and retracted the bid. I then came in and rebid correctly like an appropriate person should do.

The other retractions were with two sellers specifically, one had 15 and one had 2. The one where I retracted 15 bids I ended up winning all the auctions on some 86 fleer psa10s. The user for the other two retractions were because I bid on the items and didn't pay attention to who the seller was. The seller had screwed me over on a deal and I refuse to do business with him.

I can definitely see the benefit in retractions to discover max bids, but it does not at all preclude you from losing to someone using a snipping service.

There are actually some honest people out there that retract for reasons other than intentional manipulation. Whether it be inexperience or ignorance, it needs to be policed and watched, but if you guys don't want someone to see your max bid, don't put one in. Wait till the end and use your snipping services. Don't try to blame retractors, look in the mirror and blame yourself.

Have a great evening.

Lastly, if the prices I paid were so crazy high for everything, why haven't multiple high quality home run baker t206 cards showed up on eBay ? Why haven't any more high quality PSA green Cobb's surfaced yet as available? Why haven't all those folks with the top notch PSA 8 mantles put them up for auction if these prices really are crazy??

I can tell you why... Because people don't want to sell. Until they do, prices will keep going up... It amazes me that people don't understand that, but that's fine by me because I get to enjoy these cards and make money at the same time while some folks that like to complain and conspire on message boards will be left with nothing but their incorrect assumptions about guys like me.

Welcome to America !

Or blame ebay for creating (and continuing to refine) a playground for the ill-intentioned.
Please note: this is a general observation.

"sniping" services with one p. Snipping is not a service I'm interested in.

I am a snipped Jewish person who uses a sniping service.

As for the bid retractions, I find them to be a huge problem, generally speaking. I doubt very many of the large bid retractors will come on and explain themselves the way Justin (hi Justin) has. And I almost guarantee their stories won't hold water the way his did.

I have two very thoughtful comments for you. First, eBay (actually, a segment of its horde of MBA know-it-alls) could not and still cannot understand the difference between commodities and collectables, so they push(ed) sellers to use the fixed price format and destroyed auctions. It was one of those "business decisions" that was really smart, unless you actually could care about the difference. Idiots.

However, eBay isn't to blame for the scumbagginess of buyers and sellers who use it to try to exploit others. It's *only* a platform; who the hell wants to police the nonsense that goes on there?

Bill

Very thoughtful Bill. ;)

As was ebay's obfuscation of bidder id's and the like.

It's a virtual harmonic convergence.

Don't forget...the ability for sellers to leave negative feedback. In my opinion, if you don't pay for a card, and a seller has to perform a NPB claim against you, that should warrant an AUTOMATIC negative.

But they've rebranded auction wins as "Orders"; heck, you can cancel an order, right? Argh. And now they let sellers unilaterally cancel bids as well. eBay is making many bad decisions. That's why I stopped listing cards there and took all of mine to a competitor.

I worked at eBay at the time that this new policy went in place. It had taken much too long, but people had finally realized that Amazon was just destroying them. And Amazon never allowed sellers to leave feedback for buyers, nor did any other marketplace. eBay did a ton of things wrong, but this wasn't one of them. I say that even though I loved seller feedback, but too many bad sellers used it as extortion.

For old-timers, remember Roy Huff (libertyforall)?

Bill

Great point Bill! Where did the Ebay auctions go? Ebay changed their business model to be more like Amazon. Thats why I like PWCC who is a rare bread of seller, who runs a true auction without reserves.

Justin makes a great point in asking why a potential buyer would place a high bid early on????? I do not get that at all unless your strategy is hoping that ebay has a crash an hour before the auction ends. People that place High bids early on are just asking to be chipped away by other bidders.

You normally do not win an item being the high bidder a day Before it ends. Many successful bidders come in at the end of an auction via snipe (Ebay)or late night bid, depending on the auction.

I always thought you were on the ball, JC. This just reinforces that :)

The hobby was never better than from roughly 1999-2005 when eBay hadn't completely botched their platform. A decade later, it's a total mess. We're now subjected to multiple auction houses all with ridiculously high consignor rates - I'm looking at you, everyone over 10% or so. There are almost no new buyers coming into the hobby, almost all of the big buyers gone, and this forum is now about Mantle cards and who can complain more.

Give me the old days, thanks.

Bill

+1 and you Preach it Brother Bill!!!!

Ah yes,..............give me the days when people referred to themselves in the plural third person. Bill - you get what you put up with, and we hobbyists will abide just about anything. I missed something along the way, I thought we were talking about waterfront properties now.

We have a great collection, Mr. Baker, and we have a YouTube video to prove it.

Seriously or not, this forum is in decline. Boot the difficult people, allow frivolous stuff about, for example, George Brett cards because the OP is a "regular poster" (since 6 months ago, if that), lazily complain about eBay (yes, Brian Van Horn, I mean you). It needs the proverbial reboot.

Bill

Buyers premiums are steep, correct. Sellers fees are steep, correct. But those fees being as high and the independent sellers/auction houses as they are protect each of us from the shill bidding and assets protection strategies many of you complain about here.

If fees were lower, problems far greater than each of you could imagine would certainly exist. If I didn't have to pay my bill when I won something nor did I have to pay a big buyers premium, I would most likely do more "asset protection" as would most others. The fees are high, I agree, but they are most certainly there for a reason. Any auction house that charges less than standard rates would immediately be a HUGE red flag to me and most other large buyers I assume.

Most importantly, these large transaction costs make both buyers and sellers think seriously about transacting. If you are a buyer, you buy hopefully for the long term. If you are a seller, you likely consider the transaction costs in your investment return analysis. The fee structures as they are encourage long term investing rather than short term speculation. Although expensive, the model has sustained the test of time because it works on many levels. It critically encourages collectors and investors alike to make purchases they intend to commit to for long periods of time. By its very nature, this commitment buy the parties to a transaction support prices for our large investments in cardboard.

You might wish for the "good ole days", but trust me, the market fee structure as it is today is exactly what each of us need for the market to function in an orderly and proper fashion.

Wait...what?!?!?! OK....I don't have no beef with you, but what you said is asinine.

Wonka was banned? :confused:

I think I can imagine it. Here's what comes to my imagination - my consignor fees pay the rent and much else for the auction houses. They offer me 0% commissions because they are digging deep into my pocket on the buyer side

Is that the "protection" you're crowing about? By the way, why do you get to post anonymously? Did you get some special dispensation from Leon?

Bill

If you took the time to read the whole thread instead of chiming in at the end, you will see his name is out there. Leon posted it for everyone to see. You come across to me as a bitter old man longing for the "good old days". Leave the cardboard alone and get a breath of fresh air. It could do you some good.

More bitter than you'd ever realize. I once lost on an auction or two in (gasp) 2008 and maybe a couple more before that, although my memory fails me.

No beef with you, although I could not possibly care less about people policing eBay.

Bill

His name is in post 113 and the forum has been going down for as long as I can remember :).

I guess Jeff didn't want to answer the questions and get the immunity stick....off the island?