Hey, we played outdoors here last year and this year, didn't you see how awesome Blair Walsh is kicking outdoors? [emoji6]

It's not that Manning had HOF receivers and Favre didn't. Manning made them HOF receivers. Just like Brady made Welker one.


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Ummmm, yeah there is. Didn't win as many rings as he would have liked clearly, but you simply cannot just ignore his regular season numbers because of what happened in the playoffs. That is ridiculous.


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Cobb -baseball
Jim Brown- football but takes care of lacrosse as well
Jordan- 2nd place Pistol Pete
Richard- for hockey. Don't like Gretzky and Howe is too obvious

One thing that puzzles me about Ruth...I think it was in my 1955 Sports Illustrated with Alston on the cover that a bunch of old baseball men were asked to name the best baseball player ever. I remember Cobb chose Wagner, as did a couple other guys. A few guys chose Cobb. And I think only one guy chose Ruth.

I suppose you could argue these guys were purists who thought the home run ruined baseball, but it did make me wonder.

OT: Who would you put on your sports Mt. Rushmore. This is harder than it sou...
 

Or maybe because they were all better overall players than Ruth except in the HR/power dept and pitching category.


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Sure I can. With his abysmal playoff record he cannot plausibly be considered the best QB ever. And wherever you rank Brady, he cannot plausibly be considered better than Brady with 4 wins and something like 21-8 overall.

Pistol Pete over Chamberlain, Jabbar, Russell, Magic, LeBron, Oscar, Bird? Yeah he had some amazing moves but come on.

You absolutely have to have Jackie Robinson. After that we can argue.

Other than that Mrs. Lincoln how was the play? Oh and he only hit .342. And led the league in walks nearly every year.

Oh so sorry, guess I should have made it clearer he can hit.


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Sure he absolutely can. You going to put Bumgarner in the HOF or call in the greatest pitcher of all time cause he was good in the postseason. Or any player for that matter who has a good postseason track record but did nothing in the regular season.


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Babe Ruth
 

Here's an interesting fact: In a span of 25 years, modern statisticians measured the distance of every MLB home run and discovered that there was only one instance in which a batter hit a homer that traveled 500 feet. In 1920, the first year that Ruth became a full-time batter for the Yanks, he hit a 500+ foot home run in EVERY single ball park he played in! There never has been and never will be another batter with more power than Ruth.

Very cool! Do you have a link to that source?


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Oh, please. You're grasping at straws. We could say that about every great wide receiver that's ever played the game.

Joe Montana and Steve Young made Jerry Rice a Hall of Famer. :rolleyes:

By the way, Reggie Wayne, at age 34, had 106 catches for 1,355 yards in 2012 after Manning was already gone.

Don't kid yourself. You could say that, but you would be wrong. Some receivers are made from the system they are in. That's why Welker was a flop everywhere until he went to the Pats.

Harrison was nothing special and did nothing before Manning. And please, one season. What did Wayne do in 2011? 2013? 2014? And where is he now?


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Welker played all of three seasons pre Pats and the third one had 67 receptions for a 10 yard average. And all but one game was for Miami (flop "everywhere" lol). You are just spouting nonsense for the hell of it, it seems.

You want an interesting stat on Welker, look at the decline in production going from Brady to the great Manning.

Nonsense? You just do not get it do you or you don't know what you're talking about, it seems. I'll go with you don't know what you're talking about, in terms of football.

Didn't realize this was so difficult for you to comprehend. So Welker being cut and limited to special teams in the early part of his career doesn't mean anything to you? Hmmmm I wonder if it's because he didn't have a good quarter back...or a good system...or coaches...sure as hell looks that way if you look up 2007, first year with the Pats.

I'm done with this thread.


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In chaos theory, we would say the dynamical system that is this thread has made its way toward the two attractors of "Manning v Brady" and "Ruth v Mays." We could come back in 30 more posts and see the same debates in their same unresolved states...or just recognize that ALL these folks already have a HOF to enshrine their legacies. So if we're building an alternate shrine, how about Rose, Shoeless Joe, Bonds, and Clemens?

OT: Who would you put on your sports Mt. Rushmore. This is harder than it sou...
 

Just stop talking, you're making yourself look like an idiot with things you don't know.

2013: you have DT as your number 1, not Welker. He had a smaller role. Welker scored more TD'S in that one year than he ever did with the great Tom Brady for a single season. Interesting to say the least.

2014: Idk, maybe if you knew what you were talking about you would have known he had concussion problems.



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What don't you understand? By his third season, very early in his career, he had 67 receptions and a very respectable 10 yard average, similar to the rest of his career. ON MIAMI. Sorry the facts don't fit your narrative.

OT: Who would you put on your sports Mt. Rushmore. This is harder than it sou...
 

You still don't get it. Yep, you keep researching Welker and editing your posts after the fact when you look up more stats and numbers because you don't have the slightest clue what you're talking about.

Just quit replying so the thread can continue.


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You're very convincing. I am impressed.

Here's a headline of the future:

"Billionaire sports fan creates Mt Rushmore of sports greats; Jordan sues over use of his likeness."

You are the idiot who said Welker was a flop everywhere before Brady. I showed you that by his third season he had very respectable numbers. 67 catches is not a "flop" by anyone's standards. Which is surely why NE was interested in him. Respond on the merits.

OT: Who would you put on your sports Mt. Rushmore. This is harder than it sou...
 

Flop may have been harsh, I'll admit that. But he was a special teamer struggling to stay on the roster and almost got cut (again) before his magical 2006 season.

Let me ask you this, do you think Welker would have become a HOF player in Miami? No. Most likely a far cry from it. Brady made him a HOF'er.


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Brent, we're certainly on the same page that playing on a great team with a great QB will help any receiver. But of course it can work the other way too, a great receiver can improve any QB. So it's really hard to say in almost any case who made who better. I suspect Welker was on his way to being very very good, but beyond that it's hard to know.

i think
 

we can all say these 3 - RUTH, GRETZKY, JORDAN....


the tough one is # 4???????:confused:

Hard to argue with that my friend, well said. Heck, Welker could have killed it in Miami for all we know. I would say it's more difficult to have a great receiver make a decent qb great. Didn't work with Moss is Oakland, but then again he didn't seem to care nor try lol.

Some players are made from the systems they are put in, and if you remove them from that, they may not succeed.


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I haven't made a list yet, but I see a lot of Gretzky. Would this be an "American Monument" like we actually have? Or can we include the likes of Gretzky?


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Moss did make Cassell look pretty good for a season though.

He sure did! Lol


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You can put anyone you like, but being arguably the best at a minor sport doesn't necessarily make someone top 4. Several people have put Pele on the list.I think he is a better choice. I don't see how you can have a list without Ali, not only was he the best, but his stance against the Vietnam War and international impact after his career are more compelling. Are you going to have a NFL player? Seems difficult to leave out the most popular sport, at least in the US. I went with 1 baseball. 1 basketball, 1 football and 1 other sport.

For me, I am leaning towards Ali, Ruth for sure. Others, don't know..


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john l Sullivan
ty cobb
jim Thorpe
Michael phelps

ESPN's top 4 was Jordan, Ruth, Ali and Jim Brown.

Ruth
 

Very cool! Do you have a link to that source?

The source is a book called "The Home Run Encyclopedia," MacMillan publishing. The information is found on pages 25-26 in a chapter titled, "Longest Home Runs." It should be noted that my memory was a bit faulty in two aspects, one of which is the 25-year time frame. The computerized measuring equipment first instituted in MLB parks in 1982 was broadened to include every ball park by 1991. It was within that 10-year time frame that only one major leaguer, Cecil Fielder, hit a 500-foot homer. His was measured at 502 feet. And the second correction is the year Ruth hit 500+ home runs in all eight A.L. ball parks he visited. It was 1921, not 1920.

Although home run measuring technology wasn't developed until the '80s, we do have enough footage of Ruth's 1921 homers to ascertain with computer analysis the fact that they traveled such historic distances. He was truly a freak!

I was thinking close to that, if I were to stick with the 4 major US sports, football is where I'm struggling.


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Ruth
 

[QUOTE=robw1959;1469810]

Thanks! yes Ruth was something special. Any research or studies done on his bat speed or exit velocity?


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Hard to argue with that, although I don't see Brown as having much cultural importance outside FB (yeah the Dirty Dozen was great but whatever) whereas the others transcended sport. Which is why my fourth was Pele, symbol of the most popular sport in the world.

I agree, that is why I went with Johnny U. I think he was the guy who spearheaded the NFL's popularity, the Ba be Ruth if the NFL. Vince Lombardi would also be a great choice. I also really like your choice of Pele to give the list a true international flavor.

Very interesting.

I'd pick
Ruth - There will always be arguments that he had areas of his game that were weak. But when it's all set aside his strengths changed baseball almost permanently. Mays may have had better overall skills, but without Ruth making power a major part of the game he might not have ever played. And Baseballs popularity in the years Ruth played changed the country in some subtle ways. Before and even after Ruth there was a stigma to professional sports especially in football and other sports that were big at colleges. It could be said that persists today in the rules of the NCAA. But there's no general thing against pro sports in the mind of the public.

Ali - Not for his stance against the war. But for showing possibly for the first time that an athlete could use his popularity to improve things for people in general. That was the reasoning behind picking all those out of the way places for his fights. And doing it in a way that actually made a bit of difference for the locals.

Pele - A huge star internationally, he spent what should have been the first few years or retirement playing for the Cosmos. His final game against his old club team sold out Giants stadium something that in the US in the 70's should have been impossible for soccer. I think it's fair to say that without Pele there would be very little soccer in the US. Considering how well our teams have done lately especially the womens team, he had a major impact on the sport overall

the last spot I'll leave open, with a few possibilities. I'm expecting them to be more than a bit controversial. :D Many of the players already mentioned would be worthy choices but I like the less obvious ones.

Lance Armstrong - yes, disgraced and not generally all that good of a guy. But another whose popularity really made a difference for his sport in the US. I'd say probably not because of the cheating, but barely.

Bill France Sr. - founded Nascar. How different things would be without it.

Glen Curtis - Bicycle racer, motorcycle racer, aviation pioneer. Using ailerons instead of wing warping was a major advance just after the Wrights. Planes still use them today, so while his largest contribution was away from sports, He is a sports figure who made a major contribution the world in general.
(Many aviation pioneers and automotive pioneers were bicycle or motorcycle racers. Curtis is simply the most famous of the bunch. The Wrights raced as well, but briefly and weren't much good. They moved on to building bikes quickly)

Howard Cosell - Like him or not- and many didn't - he was a large part of making sports a major part of television. Where is the NFL without TV and Monday Night Football? Where are any of the fringe sports without wide world of sports?

Kraft and/or Bellichick - it's hard to separate the two. I'm becoming more convinced every year that the success isn't about Brady, isn't about who is there or not there. The team did go 11-5 with Matt Cassel as QB. So much of what they do is more about using a players abilities rather than trying to force them into a particular role or style of play. I can't recall any team using so many players who are either late round picks or undrafted. I do see other teams passing over good players in favor of guys they spent bonus money on who can't quite pull themselves together. Without a load of support from an owner a coach can't do that sort of thing. In many cities Bill would have been gone after his first season being 5-11. And to be sure he was a very mediocre coach with Cleveland.
But I also think it's too early for rushmore. If their methods become more the norm in the NFL and if that changes the game, then maybe. If it simply becomes a historic anomaly then no.

There's a rather large crowd of "others" who could be in. People who advanced the equipment in major sports, or altered the public perception of a sport. Many of them perhaps too obscure to be solid nominees.


Steve B

On the Welker discussion, while he was with Miami he totally killed the Pats. Especially on kick returns. I would always wonder why they didn't use him more as a receiver.

It was a very happy day for me when the Pats traded for him.

Steve B

Had to Google that one. Yeah, ok. He would be a possibility for the fourth spot. Hard to argue with a guy being looked on as almost a god :)

Steve B

I didn't know that about LeBron. I don't think of him as a candidate for "best ever" but that he funds college and GEDs does change my overall opinion of him.

Steve B

His 1300 crowns blows away Phelps.

Who else has an army?

Arnold Palmer

Pioneers
 

Jack Johnson
Jackie Robinson
Arthur Ashe
Wilt Chamberlain

Kiss.

http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/11...12b9983ab5.jpg

Pat Tillman

Babe Ruth
Jackie Robinson
Jesse Owens
Jimmy Clark or Ayrton Senna
strong consideration for either Gretzky or Bobby Orr

I think athletes that changed the direction of their respective sport or society in general should be recognized not just those with statistical accomplishments.Rushmore has four presidents, a sports Rushmore would definitely need more being there are so may sports.

Mt. Rushmore
 

Rumor has it that Mt. Rushmore ain't all it's cracked up to be.

How could I have forgotten Senna ?! He was a tremendous driver and outspoken about his sports problems where others simply kept quiet and cashed their checks. Racing as a whole is far safer because of him.

Steve B

Babe Ruth
Jackie Robinson
Muhammad Ali

The fourth one I'd leave open for the athlete who basically becomes the Jackie Robinson for the LGBT community.

There would be no such thing as a Jackie Robinson for the LGBT community. LGBT is not barred from playing professional sports thus having to play in their own league until they are given the chance.

Every sport has already had a LGBT person play.

If you are worried about inequality in sports look at women. I would love to see if Chelsea Baker ever gets a chance with a pro baseball team.

What I mean is someone who would have the same impact as Jackie did for African-Americans. Yeah there are LGBT athletes, and none are being barred, but as someone who represents the community on the level that Jackie did, I don't think that person has really been in the public eye like that. Sure, Chelsea Baker would be great, or someone similar. And btw, yes LGBT athletes are not barred from sports, but the general culture of sports sure hasn't done much to encourage LGBT athletes

Unfortunately, Michael Sam didn't work out. His draft reaction was pretty cool to see.

To add, no opinion on whether it compares to Jackie etc. Just commenting on someone who was a huge headliner for not only sports news, but national news.


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Eddie Gaedel

Secretariat or American Pharoah should get some discussion. Athletes and non-human.

For the backside (busts): Todd Marinovich, Quincy Carter, Sam Bowie (picked before Jordan).

You should look In to getting that signed lol

I had a whole paragraph typed up to push Secretariat but deleted it because I thought I'd get laughed at.

There's not a single event that gives me bigger goosebumps than seeing him open up and just run at the Belmont.

My Mount Rushmore
 

Ali, Ruth, Jordan and Gretzky

Cool topic. My interpretation for Rushmore heavily values character and the person's life, whether they are a source of inspiration, iconic status, etc...

Lou Gehrig, Michael Jordan, Joe Montana...and the fictional Rocky Balboa.

Who doesn't love Rocky :) Those first two movies get me every time!

Four Athletes representing five sports
 

Babe Ruth, Jim Thorpe, Bill Russell and Gordie Howe in Baseball, Track & Field-Football, Basketball and Hockey, respectively.

Tough call, obviously, but I will go with Wilt, Cobb and Bobby Jones.

Ruth
Ali
Jackie Robinson
Jordan

Am not keeping score but this seems to be the winning quartet. I just wish Jordan had some off-court heroics to match his on-court dominance. However, he strikes me as basketball's Cobb, and his primary off-court achievement has been the ushering in of the $150 sneaker era.

Jesse Owens

Jackie Robinson

Jim Thorpe

Babe Ruth





Steve

Franco Harris


Steve

jim otto
dave dravecky
marv throneberry

The on court heroics of basketball wouldn't be possible if traveling wasn't allowed.It's all about the "show", the NASCAR of stick & ball sports. Jordan was a tremendous athlete though. He was the NBA in his era, he received the benefit of doubt from the officials. I have a tough time putting him on the list.

https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images...x_400x400.jpeg

http://www.chicagonow.com/through-an...ael-Jordan.jpg


http://www.jimpoz.com/quotes/speakers/bryant.jpg


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Mount rushmore
 

Fyi, you would be 100% correct by placing Secretariat on that list. What SEC accomplished in the Triple Crown, racings greatest stage, was unprecedented and will never be repeated again. To place his 3 TC wins in perspective, if you put all 3 races together, he would have beat American Pharoah by 57 lengths or 456 yards (1.5 football fields!!!). In fact, when ESPN completed a poll of the greatest 100 athletic accomplishments, Secretariat's Belmont Stakes run was ranked 2nd, only behind Chamberlain's 100 point game. No horse has ever come within 9 lengths of his 1.5 mile dirt track Belmont Stakes record....talk about dominance and separating yourself from your peers. In his Kentucky Derby win he ran each quarter mile fraction faster than the preceding one, accelerating the entire 1.25 mile race, also unprecedented in race horse history. As a final nail in the coffin, he still holds the fastest times for ALL 3 Triple Crown races, covering over 150 years, over 4,000 race horses and approximately 450 races! Bottom line is Secretariat stretched the physical limits of what the standard thoroughbred race horse should be able to accomplish and THAT is what truly defines superiority in sports. It's not just that he won great races, it was the manner in which he won them. As a side note, his iconic stature is likewise monumemtal, and if you are old enough to have been around in 1973, he was the most significant sports personality in the world, even appearing on the front cover of 3 major periodicals in the same week (Time, Newsweek & Sports Illustrated).

That said, my top 4 sports icons are: Ruth, Ali, Jordan and Secretariat. All 4 have the perfect combination of incredible feats for their respective sports, coupled with an "unearthly" stature versus their peers. Whether an animal should be considered an Athlete will always be open for discussion, but for my money, Big Red's unprecedented performances have earned him the right to join this iconic list. If ESPN can classify him as an athlete, that's good enough for me.

Regards,
JoeT

How's this one?
 

Jim Thorpe (may be best athlete of 1st half of 20th century).
Bo Jackson (may be best athlete of 2nd half of 20th century).
Abby Wambach (one of leading female athletes of recent history, inspired millions of girls, and, since LGBT was mentioned in an earlier post, is openly married in a same sex relationship).
Secretariat (sheer dominance that's hard to compare others to).

Also considered Pele, Ali, Jim Brown, Tiger, Wilt, Kareem, Serena, Gretzky, Ruth, Cobb, Aaron, Unitas, Montana, Tyson, MJ, Oscar, Owens, Lewis, Phelps, Jenner, and probably several others.

I thought about Secretariat, but there is someone else who blows him away. As great as the Belmont, setting a world record on the final leg of the triple crown, it pales in comparison to what Jesse Owens did at the 1935 Big Ten Championships. In 45 minutes, he set 3 world records and tied a fourth. That was the greatest feat in sports history. If I were to include someone on this list for a short career vs. those others with decades of accomplishments, it would be Owens. We all know what he did at the Olympics, winning 4 gold medals in the face of Hitler and the Nazis, but that was only his second best achievement. He would be more deserving than Secretariat in my opinion.

I know the history of Owens and love the Berlin story, but Owens isn't the measure by which all sprinters gauge themselves. Records are typically meant to be broken...especially timed events. Secretariat lives on, and Owens has been passed by long ago.

Mount Rushmore
 

You make valid points except for one big difference between what Owens accomplished versus Secretariat. Jessie Owens records have been long shattered while Secretariat's amazing feats have withstood the test of time. Yes, even in lieu of all the progressive training, technology and track enhancements over the past 42 years, no horse can come close to his most hallowed records. That is why SEC stands tall above the rest. In 1973, he set 6 track records, 2 official world records and 2 "unofficial" world records "pulling up" 1/8 mile AFTER the wire. 3 track records still stand, as well as 3 of those 4 world records holding firm. The only world record not holding up was his 9 furlong peformance in the Marlboro Cup, surpassed by only a single horse by 1/5 of a second! His world class combination of sheer speed and staying power (sprinter & distance running) is unparalled in thoroughbred race horsing history. Even the immortal Babe Ruth has seen most of his legendary records fall, yet no horse can even come close to what Secretariat accomplished. Remember how Babe Ruth amazingly out homered most TEAMS in the early 1920s? Well consider the great American Pharoah being crushed by 57 lengths in the combined 3 Triple Crown races....that says it all!

Saw this in a current auction

Going outside the idea of influence outside of sports, and running with the current theme of dominance in a sport.

Eddy Merckx - 525 pro cycling victories, far more than anyone else. And not just in little races, 11 wins came in the big tours, 26 in major races, and 4 world championships 1 amateur and 3 pro. Many wins were by huge margins.

Beryl Burton - British time trial specialist, she won seven world championships, 90 British titles, and set a 12 hour record that remained better than the mens record for 2 years. And won the best all-round competition in the UK every year from 1959-1983.

Steve B

Babe Ruth
Jackie Robinson
Jim Brown
Michael Jordan