Touche.

Eric, sorry to hear of this. Thank you for sharing so I know to avoid the seller.

Everyone is making too much out of this. I got screwed and it is what it is.

Long story short, if I wasn't getting this Mantle, I wouldn't have sold mine. I'm certainly not going to ask the buyer to sell it back to me, that's bad business and not how I operate.

I will continue to look for another Mantle now to fill a void in my collection. This is part of my PSA set.

My only reason behind posting this thread was to bring caution to any others that may be presented with an opportunity to do business with this same seller - you should at least be aware of this before deciding to engage in a transaction.

I said "I disagree", not the law disagrees. I'm glad to know the UCC (and therefore most states) agrees with the OP, but as many have already said, the legality is hardly the issue here. And based on your last statement (But all that, to me, is beside the point) I think you and I agree morally.

Yes we are definitely on the same page as an ethical/moral issue, Dan should have completed the deal for sure.

I don't even understand the seller's reluctance to honor the deal...he's not too attached to the card since he's shopping around for a replacement. I guess the damage this has done to his reputation is worth holding onto a card that he's shopping around. Weird.

....and this is why i don't buy high end cards.

I understand not wanting to sell a card until I have replaced it, I just did that in fact, that makes sense to me, but that does not justify reneging on a completed deal.

Best comment in the whole thread!

Jeff

Should have posted this originally... here is the card that caused the whole mess.

No it does not. I could understand maybe if it was a rare card, but it's not. This guy just wrecked his trading rep on Net54 on a card that he's looking to replace.

Yes, but the thinking is that you would rather have the one you are looking to replace than none at all. I just did that with an Aaron rookie -- I bought a new one before selling my old one. It is irrational to some extent (what collector isn't) but I didn't want to not have an Aaron rookie.

But all I am saying is I understand the mindset, not condoning the behavior. Dan was dead wrong here.

Looks like he has sold a few '51 Bowman Mantles on the B/S/T in the past. Why keep this one, Dan?

I don't think about ethics here. I think practically all retail stores allow returns these days. The next time I return something to Costco or Home Depot, I don't really think I'm doing anything ethically wrong (unless of course, I opened the item in question).

I think selling transactions generally favor the buyer in cases like these and allow returns because the buyer might not know exactly what he or she is getting. You see the item online, but not until you actually get it in hand, do you see what it is. You see the item in the store, but it's not until you are home and see how that item you bought works or fits as you expected (e.g., a mattress or a part). I agree that allowing returns is generally much, much tougher on small sellers than the big box stores, especially in terms of cash flow.

And what does any of this have to do with baseball cards where a buyer is free to ask questions if for any reason the scan isn't adequate? And I think the original example wasn't even a return just a cancellation before receipt.

Mom!!!
 

Tell his MOM!!!:rolleyes:

He sold it to someone else for more money. The most plausible answer.

He said he did not. And Eric was paying a strong price for that card, IMO.

Well that settles it, no way he would lie.

I don't think he would, actually. He has been pretty candid about his misbehavior.

Buyers change their mind. On Amazon.com, you can buy something and then cancel it before it ships and expect a refund. There is nothing unethical about this.

Dealing with the world's largest online retailer is not analogous in my view to a one on one card transaction. So in your view it's fine to win a week long auction, then say oh I changed my mind sorry seller? That seems ridiculous to me. And just as bad, or close, on a BIN.

I'm still not really seeing the outrage. I get it that it's annoying that you thought you bought a card, but the real anger lies in selling your card and not being able to get it back on the other end of the deal.

Everyone was squared away when it was cancelled. There isn't a lingering refund problem or a lost card in the mail. I think it's reasonable to think twice about dealing with a seller, but I don't see why he should have to do something with his card he doesn't want to do (even though I realize no one forced him to put it up for sale).

Well, ebay is the world's largest auctioneer, I believe...

Every circumstance has its own issue. I don't believe it's right buy some audio equipment, use it at your party, and then return it afterwards. Similarly, it's not right to bid in an auction that you never had any intention of paying. And I do believe that large auction companies will sue you if you do not pay your invoices. (I saw that Siegel, a large stamp auctioneer had a catalog just from the items from a large nonpaying bidder recently.) However, if you purchased a graded card that had a crease that was not visible in the online scan and was not described in the description, then I believe you have more of a case for a return. And frankly for a BIN, I believe you should be able to return or cancel anything that you want since there wouldn't be a loss on either side (other than perhaps shipping costs). Frankly, I sell on ebay, and I offer 14 day no questions asked returns (buyer pays return shipping cost). You can cancel an item before it ships, or return it for any reason, it's completely fine with me. Many of my buyers on ebay are repeat customers, so I want them to be as satisfied as possible from the transaction. If they have a bad taste in their mouth because the transaction went sour, they may not purchase from me again. And on the flip side, if they know that they will have a pleasant shopping experience when they purchase from me, then they are likely to look at my listings again and perhaps even purchase items from me even if my prices may be a bit higher than others. And I am not a big box store or retailer by any means, but just sell stuff as a hobby to support my collecting habits.

Actually, he already lied when he told Eric he would sell it to him. So what's one
more lie.

Why does this incident need metaphors and analogies?

I've said it to you before in other threads and I'll say it in this one. You are an IDIOT!

You don't see why the seller should have to do something with his card that he doesn't want to do? Ummm, maybe because once he posted it for sale and accepted payment, IT WAS NO LONGER HIS CARD! He had an obligation to ship.

Well I'm going to add my 2 cents here. Not because I should, because I have the right to remain silent, I just don't have the ability.
No one lost money? No one died? No one got put in jail?
Shitty deal but both parties will live?
I take it that is the last 1951 Mantle PSA 3 left on the face of the earth?
No? Then I suggest you take your $3k and find another and never deal with
this fellow again. Have a beer, relax, go to the bank and get all ones, spread
them on the bed and jump in. No harm, no foul.
The wisdom of the deuce and a little Ron White

Or the obvious...GoBucs got a better offer somewhere and the card is (re)sold, so he cannot honor the deal...no idea if this is true but it would be simple to just honor the deal and move on...I cannot see another reason not to honor the deal.

Ding-ding-ding we have a winner

Ok dude, reading is essential. It is his card and people are telling him what to do with it. I am of the opinion it's his decision ultimately and if he doesn't want to sell, he shouldn't just because you think he should. That's all I said, that's all I implied, and personally, if that makes me an idiot then it's nice on this side of the fence instead of the one you're on.

So is comprehension. He offered a card for sale and took payment for it. You say "I don't see why he should have to do something with his card he doesn't want to do" and "if he doesn't want to sell, he shouldn't just because you think he should."

He ALREADY sold it. Do you not comprehend that??? This isn't something he was considering doing. He did it. Then he reneged on the deal. If you're okay with that, so be it. Your opinion is different than 99% of the rest of the board.

That's fine. To me, the card is still yours until it's not, just like I said. People can feel however they want to feel about it, and most of us are able to express ourselves without personally insulting someone else. The point is, it's his card and I don't see why he should do what you tell him to do with it. It's his decision and he'll live with it. What is so wrong with that line of thinking? I'm not gonna jump because you say jump.

The buyer paid for the card. It's no longer the seller's once he accepts payment. PERIOD!

Well if it's his card how come he doesn't have it? Because it wasn't his yet. Simple. Easy. Direct.

Because the seller reneged on the deal, IDIOT!

So the card never changed hands then, right?

That doesn't matter. If I sell you a card, you pay for it, but I just decide to keep it, does that still make it mine just because it didn't change hands?

Imagine if Packs bought a house and the seller reneged before the closing, and refunded the deposit. It was still the seller's house, right? No harm no foul., right?

We're not talking about a deposit. We're talking about an item paid in full. Let's say Packs buys the house, closes, the deal is funded and then the seller changes his mind and wants to unwind the deal? Is it still the seller's house to do so? No, because it was PAID for. Same with the card. It was paid in full. Once the card is paid in full, it becomes the buyers regardless if it's still in the seller's possession or not.

That first paragraph is mind-blowing. So it's ok to continue this practice on other venues. I don't think those venues will be any more forgiving than net 54. Your apologies mean nothing when you still have it in your ability to make things right. You f'd him over, make things right and sell him the card as PROMISED and AGREED upon. Why should he be the one without the Mantle, you should be. Your actions and only your actions caused Eric to be without a card.

Let's put the shoe on the other foot, Peter. Let's say that the buyer had paid with a credit card through PayPal. The card is mailed, the transaction is complete. Once the buyer gets the card, he changes his mind (for no other reason than to just change his mind), call his credit card company to dispute the transaction, gets refunded, and then mails the card back to the seller. Is that fair to the seller? What's the difference?

Maybe it's for the best-that bullsh*t centering on that Mantle would drive me nuts. He can find a much better example!

I believe that real estate transactions involve removing "contingencies" in a "time is of the essence" manner. Should B/S/T transactions follow suit?

Not singling you out, Peter. I agree with what you've posted.

Nor am I suggesting that the B/S/T be aligned with the purchase and sale of houses.

I merely think that the (prospective) buyers and sellers mentioned within this thread might have benefitted by more transparently disclosing their particular situations here.

Best regards,

Eric

Jesus David have you read the damn thread and my 10 posts blasting Dan? I am agreeing with you and was showing the absurdity of Packs' position. I was being sarcastic, in other words.

Yes, Dan should have, if there was a contingency that threatened to undo the deal. I don't see why Eric should have.

Leon is there a way to block people from listing on BST like the blocks buyer/seller blocks on EBAY because I sure would like to block this potential seller.

Sorry, Peter, I'm just fired up about this.

Yes, Dan's attitude definitely sucks, IMO.

At the same time it had no print lines, was not out of register, and didn't have big gum stains on the back.

And Dan, I don't appreciate your profanity-laden private message either.

If you can't take the heat, go away, nobody will miss you.

Peter,

Again, I agree with you.

The buyer did everything correctly, within the context of the Net54 B/S/T...and on almost every other level.

Should he have sold his Mantle before having the upgrade in hand? The answer to that is open to interpretation. I personally believe (as do you, if I am not mistaken) that the OP was right in expecting the "seller" to deliver a specific performance.

Would I let the original card go before having the upgrade in hand? Who knows? Does it really matter?

In this particular case:

"Seller" offered the card for sale
Buyer negotiated with "seller"
The two parties agreed upon a price
Buyer delivered the money

As far as I am concerned, the buyer completed their end of the transaction completely and in good faith. The "seller" backed out of a deal that was already done. Shame on them.

Again, I am not singling you out or disagreeing with you regarding the main point of this discussion.

Yes, Dan is a weasel for backing out of a deal that he not only negotiated with the buyer...he was also paid in full and then reneged on the deal.

Best regards,

Eric

I nearly posted on pg. 5 but didn't. Nine pages later, I feel the need to throw in my relatively meaningless two cents.

Life is so much simpler when people follow through and do what they say they'll do. What bothers me the most about this is I somehow feel this rattles a little bit of Net54's sanctity. I know that probably sounds over the top, however, this place has always had a safer, more ethical feel to it, especially compared to ebay. I have had great transactions on the B/S/T here as a buyer and seller. Net54 is a real community. I have always appreciated how fellow collectors here help each other out and just take care of one another. Stuff like this makes me feel as though the barbarians are lurking just outside of the city walls.

Perfectly said. We lose a bit of faith in the common man.

Make that two. :eek:

Can't take fair criticism, Dan? Is that the best you can do, to drop f bombs on me?

Quite a few of you have contacted me claiming to have had similar problems with this same seller.

We really need an automated feedback system where buyers leave positive and negative feedback on transactions. Once someone gets 3 strikes or negatives, they are banned from selling.

Based upon all your emails, the seller here would have been banned long ago!

How is it that so many people continue to have problems with one seller but yet as a community we do nothing about it?

will only know it was strong price if the price stays on b/s/t and have new prices to compare it too.....aside from them VCP stuff...

+1! Eric, there are over 1,000 51 Bowman Mantle cards graded higher just in PSA holders alone. WAIT for a better one to come along, you'll forget all about this one in a hurry!

I'm a lightweight on this website, but this has nothing to do with how long you've been on here.

I don't know the OP or seller in this case, but when the agreed amount of money exchanges hands, that should be it. There is no other way to look at it. Not morally or logically.

Some folks here value the sense of community @ N54 & greatly appreciate and respect the opportunity to buy/sell within said community.
You already sold Eric the card once at the agreed to price. You changed the rules of the transaction after he sent you a large sum of money.
Attachment 206463
Why Eric or anyone would consider buying from you in the future is beyond me.
Paul

Bucs decided to pass the hurt onto the next guy, and Cosmo honored his deal with the guy he sold his mantle to. He didn't pass the problem along to his customer that he came to an agreement with. Kudos. This is a study in contrast on how people behave in this hobby.

Cosmo did the right thing even though he is without a mantle now, and Bucs COULD have but decided to take the snakebelly/wagon wheel rut option.

This is really well stated. I love that we have this little community to trade and sell cards and talk about them. It really makes me mad when people take advantage of other members or screw others over for money. Like gobucmagic said, there are plenty of other places to do that. We don't need people like that here.

I'd really appreciate if people would post this type of thing publicly. We need to police the BST ourselves and it doesn't do a lot of good to just pass along bad experiences via PM. We should be alerting others so that they aren't the next person victimized, inconvenienced, or what have you.

If a moderator catches wind of members abusing other members in PMs, with F bombs and such, we will take action. Take it somewhere else, not here, even in PMs.

ps....I don't know of other functionalities of our s/w but I might talk to Brian about some stuff.....we are better off than we used to be in that respect. :)

Those people are contacting the wrong person.

I'm currently in Banning, but I am not the right person.

[QUOTE=Gobucsmagic74;1456732]I'm not asking for anyone's sympathy or support on this one and furthermore understand Eric's frustration and those who feel my decision is/was dishonorable, but at the end of the day the card is mine to do with what I choose. If some of you don't agree and opt not to do business with me in the future then so be it. There are many, many other avenues available for selling cards at our collective disposal so losing this particular avenue to a percentage of the board is not going to influence my decision one way or another. Neither will anyone's opinion of me as a person, seller, or otherwise. QUOTE]

Any chance you could provide your ebay id and and your id on other venues so I can make sure I don't ever buy from you? I would hate to purchase something somewhere else only to have you change your mind.

Thanks,
Scott

I've been here many years, and obviously have not always agreed with everyone :D, but this is the first time I remember getting profanity-laden PMs. I guess I never ticked off the Bruces. :eek:

In a perfect world this wouldn't be necessary, but... I would have no problem with what you propose, Luke.

Touched a nerve did we, Peter? :D

Hah.

That just shows you didn't do it right. Piker. :)

I agree with the buyer here and can understand why he and others might wish to avoid this seller in the future. The seller has also learned a valuable lesson and may wish to avoid the person who backed out of the deal to sell him the upgrade.

Having said that, I don't own a '51 Mantle and have never felt that my life was unfulfilled as a result. Thus, it doesn't seem to me to be a major sacrifice for either party to do without the card for the brief period necessary to procure a replacement.

My guess as to what happened -

Seller lists the card for sale for X dollars or best offer...

Buyer A contacts seller and they agree at $3275 to have a deal.

Seller states paypal payment should be made to such and such address...

Seller receives another email from a Buyer B who probably offers $3,500 for said Mantle.

In the meantime Buyer A's transaction of $3275 goes through.

Seller says "oh $hit....I can make another couple hundred dollars here".

Seller tells Buyer A sorry circumstances are making me change my mind for the time being. I'll reimburse your money.

Seller tells Buyer B "hey you got a deal, but keep your mouth closed and please do not advertise you bought this from me".


Sounds about right. And if this is anything close, it's not worth the crap your name has just been rung through on this thread. You mentioned having other places to sell...of course you do. But how many of those places have this volume of specialized buyers and NO fees associated with said sales? I'd say you've screwed the pooch on this one, seller.

Dave - Thanks for explaining it in easy to understand terms. :D
Let's take bets on WHEN Leon will lock this thread.

It may be a while based on the Cobb Lenox thread. Leon seems to have mellowed in his old age.

So the moral of the story is, if an agreement is mutually met, honor your portion do not alter in the aftermath...

Well, we've certainly blown past the typical Mastro fraud thread in terms of pontificating and hand-wringing. Lots of real important stuff here, though, keep it going!

Jeff,

I get that you are more concerned with issues of systemic fraud such as that perpetrated by Mastro and his minions. I don't disagree with you that, as a whole, that is obviously much more detrimental to the integrity of the hobby. We are on the same page in that regard.

That being said, it seems to me that rightly or wrongly, a lot of people view the BST as sort of a safe-haven from the Mastros of the hobby. Whether or not it is accurate, the perception is that on the BST, folks honor their word and don't screw their fellow collectors over. When someone admittedly does just that, says he "understands" the frustration of the guy he just screwed over and basically admits to completely lacking any integrity whatsoever but says tough luck, get over it, that sort of flies all over people. It did me.

I was one of the folks who wrote a letter to the judge about what a POS Mastro was. But that certainly doesn't mean that stuff like this doesn't also deserve to be strongly condemned. This, in some respects, is a lot more personal because it calls into question the integrity of a board that has, to date, not had too many similar situations occur, at least that I am aware of. That's my $.02, which is probably about what it's worth.

What I can't figure out is why in blazes someone would sell a card they do not yet have in hand, especially if it is because they haven't bought the card yet. If that really is what happened, then this whole episode could have been avoided if Dan had waited a couple of days. I'm concerned about what asphaltman posted because I'm worried that he is accurate. I understand that the BST is caveat emptor, but still, a deal is a deal, and it should have been honored. I've thought of Net54 as being the one place online (probably in person, too) where I don't have to worry about being fleeced. I've always considered the Net54 members the most knowledgeable and ethical group of collectors out there today. Maybe I'm naive, and need to reassess that, but I hope not. As to the seller's contention that he "understands" what the OP is feeling; no, you don't. If you did, you wouldn't have yanked the rug out from under him, because on a $3275 transaction, that's a really lousy thing to do. Especially when the OP has done everything he was supposed to do.

Sco.tt Mar.cus

Gobucsmagic74.... One word: Karma.