Scott there is a collective bargaining agreement.

So let the "Patriot haters" vent. Their whining and envy would sicken me if I cared. If it works for them that's cool. I suppose whining and envy are chicken soup for the soul.

I think this was much ado about nothing, but not because of the lack of evidence against Brady. There was no smoking gun proving he directed anyone to do anything, but there was certainly strong circumstantial evidence, as set out in the report. He did not come across as particularly credible, to me.

Believe me, I have not an ounce of envy for the Patriots. But hey, keep drinking that Kool Aid.

And you keep drinking that chicken soup.

Peter - it's obvious, and I'm not being sarcastic, that you understand the legal implications of all of this better than the rest of us, who represent the average joe who is watching from the sidelines. So no need to patronize me - I appreciate your expertise.

Who was patronizing? I was simply explaining that your analogy didn't hold under the circumstances.

I don't have a real problem with the decision as stated. I also agree with your analysis other than perhaps the first clause in the first sentence. We can debate the effect or advantage of improperly inflated footballs and thus the rule governing them, but it appears to me it was much ado about something the Patriots thought important, and that they took noticeable lengths to try and avoid the rule. This was fairly orchestrated conduct that they clearly wanted kept hush hush. Why if it really makes no difference?

Also, while I agree there should be adequate notice of the potential penalty such that 4 games under these circumstances was excessive and violative of the CBA, it strains credulity to make the argument that gee I thought such infraction would only carry a $25K fine. You don't go to such lengths just to avoid such a minimal penalty. Brady and the Patriots, maybe others as well, would gladly and openly pay $25K for the opportunity to fine-tune the pressure on their footballs. Hell, do it on the sidelines and hand the check to the NFL on the spot--it's worth it. IMO they knew damn well that what they were doing was more than a token equipment violation. This case did/does have integrity of the game implications-do you really think that Goodell thought it a good idea to slap one of the league's more popular franchises and an even more popular player just for giggles, knowing that this crap storm would likely follow where even if he wins he's skewered? This is why I cannot agree that it is really much ado but nothing. Goodell handled it poorly--quelle surpris--but that doesn't mean there was nothing there or it wasn't worth protecting. There are no winners here.

I don't think Goodell necessarily thought the integrity of the game was on the line. I think he was worried that if he let it go, or imposed a token fine, he would be skewered for favoritism because the Patriots and their poster boy were involved. I think it was, in short, politics, not genuine concern. Or could be explained that way anyhow, as we can't know his subjective motivations.

I'm aware of the collective bargaining agreement (plus, you already mentioned it in your previous response to me) - to the average guy watching football (as I already mentioned), I think my analogy holds up perfectly. I'm not a lawyer, and most people aren't - that fact gets lost on this forum because the lawyers are the ones who talk the 'loudest' and who absolutely never back down.

That may be true on one or more levels Peter, at least I know I’ve heard that previously. But what does that say about the Patriots then? See, they knew or with any internal investigation would have learned that they in fact did the very type of thing the Commissioner was looking into–deflating footballs. How do they respond? They send their QB out to publicly deny that he knew anything about it–an interview not only unconvincing to anyone with at least a double-digit IQ but one universally panned as false by more than a dozen quarterbacks who played the position. Instead of going behind closed doors and trying to work out something with their so-called buddy Goodell they pretty pre-emptively spit in his face. So if indeed it was blown way out of proportion you can lay a good heap of blame for that on Kraft, Brady, et al.

Yeah but Kraft then backed way off by accepting the NFL's punishment... and Goodell didn't do his part to resolve the Brady piece of it.

Except that: 1) by then, the barndoor had been open far too long, again opened by the Patriots and again, due to their conduct, no one else's; 2) there was never any strict quid pro quo promised for Kraft's acceptance of the NFL punishment, certainly not one where it was agreed Brady could completely skate, especially as he was by far the worst actor in the whole matter; 3) by most and maybe all accounts Brady would not agree to even a single game suspension and would not even sign any acknowledgment of wrongdoing; and, 4) Kraft felt and feels no contrition at all, now complaining that he never should have agreed to the NFL punishment. Look at their conduct--they still claim they did nothing wrong and will not own up to anything. And one must be a hater or envious to find that disgusting?

Todd, turn on the TV next week and root for Pittsburgh. :D Oh wait, their quarterback had some issues too, maybe even a little more troubling. Damn. 6 game suspension, wasn't it?

Ah yes, played like a cornerback--deflection:)

Defense lawyer. Go figure. :D

Perspective, son, perspective. One frickin PSI of air let out of a ball. That no official noticed. That meant nothing -- see second half. This is chickenfeed. Integrity of the game, yeah yeah yeah.

Redirecting attention to what matters. :)

I certainly agree with the redirecting part. Its the rest of the statement I'm somewhat dubious about.

Bingo. Now followed by trivializing-- it was a only a little bitty boo boo, but by the way we won't even admit to it anyway, and we knew it really didn't matter when we tried our best to keep it under wraps.

Coming soon to a thread near you--rationalization. Everybody cheats, there are worse sinners out there, etc (but by the way we still won't even admit to it anyway, and we knew it really didn't matter when we tried our best to keep it under wraps).

Kidding aside, once Brady went out there immediately with a vigorous denial, the team was never going to throw him under the bus by admitting to even a trivial violation or saying anything undercutting Brady. You can't really have expected them to do that. I think Kraft hoped by not contesting things on the team end of things, the Brady piece would go away. Goodell wasn't buying into it, so it played out as it did. But it was still, in my opinion, pretty damn trivial.

There are a few things I keep coming back to in my mind.

The rule is written very poorly. It specifies a PSI range but no temperature. And the pressure does change with temperature.

The way the checking is done is also poor. Two apparently cheap and inaccurate gauges when they were checking at halftime, only one before the game. Gages that are typically off by 2% in the middle of the range. I didn't see in the report what the range was, but even if it was a 0-25 Psi range it could be off by .5 psi. http://www.dascosales.com/pressure-gauge-accuracy.php A guage with .1% accuracy can be had for around $250. every Team should have 2-3 of them, one for staff and at least one in the refs room. NOT some cheap guage provided by the ball manufacturer or Wal-Mart.

On page 15 of the report (linked below) they say the "experts" they hired determined that the gauges would have read consistently, which is obviously wrong if you look at the raw data on page 12. The colts balls measurements are consistent except for one, where the guage that reads higher for three balls reads lower for one. But for the Patriots balls that same guage reads lower than the other on all 11. So I'd say that makes all the rest of their analysis a bit suspect.

On one gage three of the four Colts balls checked were also under 12.5 - where's the punishment?

In the report they have texts discussing balls the were overinflated by the refs. Perhaps as high as 16 Psi. Also a violation of the rule, and by the officials. Again no punishment. Not even a "don't do that" memo.
Top of page 9 Here https://www.documentcloud.org/docume...flategate.html

The rule only calls for a fine.

So evidence that contradicts the science, obtained with poor equipment, supporting a poorly written rule. Yep sounds entirely convincing and fair to me :confused:


Steve B

Accurate point Greg, but I find it interesting that 8 "Blacksox" were exonerated in a US Court of Law, and then suspended for LIFE by Landis the following day? Too many inconsistencies with that theory.

JoeT.

Steve, while you blind yourself with science, do you forget that the two equipment guys effectively admitted to deflating the footballs and that Tom Brady liked 'em that way--- oh wait, he claims he didn't know anything about it, never mind.

So yes, going forward the rule will probably need to be changed or at least the protocols will, but as for what occurred last season, few people outside of Patriot Nation doubt that the deflation happened and that it was willful, not accidental or the result of some scientific anomaly. And legally, while the court decision ruled in favor of Brady for other reasons, there was sufficient evidence to sustain the findings.

My two cents for the Pats. Keep on denying you did anything wrong, own up to nothing, and let that be your battleground. Or admit that there was deflation going on, explain that it had no influence on the outcome, it was a minor violation, etc. Pick one. Not two. And if you pick number 1, don't be surprised or hurt when most of the rest of the NFL nation thinks you are full of crap.

Those text messages are enough proof for any reasonable person.

I have yet to meet a Patriots fan who has been able to explain them.

Early on I was convinced that Brady cheated-- and I'm not saying he didn't. However, the NFL/Goodell did so many kangaroo court things they deserve what they got. Too many list, but they intentionally leaked false information about the inflation rates and refused to correct it when it was pointed it out as incorrect (even the ESPN reporter who received the information said the information was false), they tried him on one offense but sentenced him on another, the penalty is inconsistent with any similar offense, they didn't allow Brady's lawyers to interview numerous key people, they said the Wells report was independent but it was edited by NFL's own lawyer (and didn't allow Brady's lawyer to cross examine that lawyer)-- and that's just scratching the surface of the dubious things the NFL things did. Most people still have the sense that Brady cheated in major part based on initial leaked PSI information that was long ago proven to be false, and probably intentionally leaked by the NFL to mislead.

The judge was basically saying the NFL has to clean up its procedures.

There is debate about whether or not Brady cheated (and he may have), but its appears unanimous in both camps that Goodell is a boob. He just seems out of his league or completely misguided in legal matters.

And this post is coming from a strong anti-cheating person and Green Bay Packers fan. If first time caught steroid users were banned for life and their stats erased from the books, that would be fine by me, and I early on felt that substantial penalty-- perhaps even loss of that close playoff game-- was warranted for illegally deflating balls. But the NFL mishandled the whole thing so thoroughly-- intentionally releasing false PSI rates then refusing to publicly correct it even when it was soofafter shown to be false, 'independent report' edited by their lawyer who they prevent from being interviewed, switching charges between conviction and sentencing, etc etc etc-- I now give the benefit of the doubt to Brady. In particular due to the intentionally false PSI rates that was the impetus for the whole uproar, I'm no longer even certain there is proof the balls were illegally deflated. Maybe they were, but anything the NFL says on the matter shouldn't be considered serious evidence.

Agree, however... "I'm no longer even certain there is proof the balls were illegally deflated" - There never was any proof.

Also, I have yet to hear any reason why 3 of the 4 balls used by the Colts were under inflated after being tested. I think we all know why now - gas law- however, this was never addressed.

I won't offer my opinion, I will admit I'm ignorant on the matter compared to most of you. Have read stuff here and there.

But, what ever the reason, guilty or not, it just really saddens me about the state of the NFL, especially the last few years. I used to enjoy the NFL so much and loved it, I still do enjoy it, though on a smaller level and have a great fantasy league with close friends, but all of this crap turns me off of the game... Go Gophers!


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There's a lot to be disgusted about this whole sordid mess. Did New England and Brady "beat the rap"? Only they know for sure, but they sure didn't behave like innocent victims either.

This issues of the "deflator" texts, the equipment guy taking the balls in the restroom for 90 seconds, allegedly sticky substances added to the balls and Brady's cell phone "accidentally" being destroyed among other things sure didn't help "the integrity of the game".

Ben Roethlinsberger was initially suspended 6 games when there were news reports of sexual assault. As it turns out, the reports were way overblown. The police thoroughly checked on the incident and nothing illegal happened. There was never a charge, an arrest, let alone a conviction. Yet, it was decided to reduce the suspension from 6 to 4 games because of a "perception issue" to maintain the integrity of the game and the NFL and the 4 game suspension went unchallenged.

There should have been subpoenas on the Brady text messages. The way it all played out was a joke. So, it was either a unfounded witch hunt or someone was breaking the rules and got away with it and nothing else will probably happen from this point on.

Never addressed? There's a 75 page expert report attached to the Wells Report, which also has an extensive discussion.

This is probably much like arguing politics – I think both sides are fairly intractable. The Wells report addressed and completely understood the ideal gas law. Indy’s balls deflated due to the decrease in temperature, as did New England’s. The ideal gas law does not, however, ever dictate that New England’s balls, being initially inflated at a lower PSI, would decrease over twice as much as Indy’s. Lots of “if this gauge was used, and they waited x minutes, and the balls were damp…” and so on, to try to come up with a scenario to explain it, but as the Wells report considered, that was highly unlikely. But, as the Wells report also said, even throwing out the science, there was more than enough evidence to know what was going on.

Clearly, holding the NFL to a prosecutorial standard shows them lacking (time and time again!), but any reasonable person, after seeing the texts between Jastremski and McNally, knows that there was a longstanding effort to underinflate the balls, and Brady was aware. Was it deserving of a 4 game suspension? No. Do other teams do something similar? I would say yes. When the NFL got wind of what NE was doing, they should have just told them to knock it off. They brought all of this on themselves.

Do you have a link to that? The places I've found the Wells report don't include it. And it sounds like something I should read.


Steve B

It's in the link you posted earlier, scroll down all the way.

I can say as an engineer by profession that air is not an ideal gas, so if ideal gas calculations were used to render a conclusion, then the study was flawed.

But the real issue that got obscured was New England's and Brady's lack of cooperation during the investigation. Brady lawyered-up, and likely destroyed or withheld incriminating evidence and refused to give interviews when asked.

This article sums things up rather well about the rationale for the suspension and the fact that New England and Brady acted the way they did and received no punishment is deplorable and sets a very bad precedence against future rule-breakers and investigations.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap300...of-cooperation

The Patriots did receive punishment. They lost a first round draft pick and $1 million.

In the end, they could have saved up to $5-$10 million if that draft pick became a bust. All planned! They just didn't like the crop of first round guys for the next draft [emoji6]


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The rule and protocols do need to be entirely redone. They've had the entire offseason and if they've redone anything at all they've kept it secret.

The ideal gas laws are just that predictable unchanging laws of science proven for a very long time. Certainly not what I'd call an "Anomaly"

The crappiness of the gauges used is also provable, even assuming they're 25 Psi Guages and not more generic tire pressure types with a larger range (And the probably were) 2% of 25 is .5 Psi, so in the first place there's no way to know they were actually at 12.5 because they could have been anywhere from 12-13 (Or 11.5 - 13.5 if it was a 0-50Psi guage.)

And the results of the "evidence" would be off by as much, since the same gauge was one of the ones used (And which the report states can't be found ....)

Where in the report does it say they admitted deflating the balls?
It does say that for the Jets game the refs overinflated them, to maybe 16 Psi.
Gee, I wonder why.



Ah, the history of "cheating"

Jets guy filming the pats practice signals from a disallowed spot - Removed from the stadium, problem solved.

Pats Guy doing exactly what the Jets guy was doing....Becomes a big deal.

Some question of inflation....
FORMER JETS guy leads the initial "investigation" into it making it a big deal.
http://www.si.com/nfl/2015/01/26/nfl...il-deflategate
Oh the surprise. NOT!

NFL gets heavy handed trying to look good after two complete fiascos over punishment. NFL overreaches and gets caught. Ignores CBA, ignores their own rule, ignores a known problem with the balls http://www.barstoolsports.com/boston...ime-naturally/


The whole thing stinks on many levels, and not just from any one side either.

Steve B

I find the Jets game situation very interesting, and no one has really tried to lay out what happened. I think the most plausible case was that the Pats submitted balls below the range initially, refs checked them, found them to be low, and just pumped some more air in them - way too much apparently. No other reason I can think of for the refs to pump them up (feel free to offer one!). From there, I suspect that McNally either let a little air out (per usual), but it was not enough, or maybe for some reason, McNally couldn't get his opportunity to deflate them. I can't think of any other reason that Brady would be upset with McNally, and why McNally (who, as official locker room attendant, remember, has NO responsibility to add or remove air from a football, EVER!) would be so defiantly angry for over a week(!) at Brady in turn.

Brady did testify that after that game, they instructed the refs to adjust the balls to exactly 12.5.

From the report:
"For example, on October 17, 2014, following a Thursday night game between the
Patriots and the New York Jets during which Tom Brady complained angrily
about the inflation level of the game balls, McNally and Jastremski exchanged the
following text messages:
McNally:

Tom sucks...im going make that next ball a f**kin balloon

Jastremski:

Talked to him last night. He actually brought you up and
said you must have a lot of stress trying to get them done...

Jastremski:

I told him it was. He was right though...

Jastremski:

I checked some of the balls this morn... The refs f**ked
us...a few of then were at almost 16

Jastremski:

They didnt recheck then after they put air in them

McNally:

F**k tom ...16 is nothing...wait till next sunday

Jastremski:

Omg! Spaz

On October 21, 2014, McNally and Jastremski exchanged the following text
messages:
McNally:

Make sure you blow up the ball to look like a rugby ball so
tom can get used to it before sunday

Jastremski:

Omg

On October 23, 2014, three days before a Sunday game against the Chicago
Bears, Jastremski and McNally exchanged the following messages:
Jastremski:

Can‟t wait to give you your needle this week :)

McNally:

Fuck tom....make sure the pump is attached to the
needle.....f**kin watermelons coming

Jastremski:

So angry

McNally:

The only thing deflating sun..is his passing rating

The next day, October 24, 2014, Jastremski and McNally exchanged the
following messages:
Jastremski:

I have a big needle for u this week

McNally:

Better be surrounded by cash and newkicks....or its a rugby
sunday

McNally:

F**k tom

Jastremski:

Maybe u will have some nice size 11s in ur locker

McNally:

Tom must really be working your balls hard this week

On October 25, 2014, McNally and Jastremski exchanged the following
messages:
Jastremski:

Size 11?

Jastremski:

2 or 3X?

McNally:

Tom must really be on you

McNally:

11 0r 11 half......2x unless its tight fitting

Jastremski:

Nah. Hasn‟t even mentioned it, figured u should get
something since he gives u nothing"