Certainly more convenient for when he needs to go into the office.:eek:

Common sense solutions to pedestrian problems. ;)

For you songwriters, pedestrian rhymes with equestrian. :D:D:D

I saw this thread yesterday and had the same reaction. The original post was written from the perspective of somebody who is selling cards, or buying them with the intention of selling them (i.e. an investor). From the perspective of a pure collector, it seems like it would be a good thing if SGC-graded cards are selling for less -- it means that there are more bargains to be had.

On the spectrum from pure collector (buying/trading for cards only for enjoyment, with no thought whatsoever to potential resale value) to pure investor (only concerned with resale value, treating cards as commodities), I am pretty far towards the "pure collector" side. I've always been a very price-conscious collector, looking for bargains and trying to get the most bang for my buck; that's why I tend to collect cards that wouldn't necessarily get a high technical grade, but which have decent eye appeal. I seldom spend more than $100 for a card, and I don't think I've ever spent more than $200.

The vast majority of my N/T/E card collection is raw, partly because many of my cards were bought years ago before TPGs were a significant factor, but also because raw cards are nearly always cheaper than graded ones, so it's much easier to find good deals. I've never sent a card to a TPG to be graded, and honestly wouldn't know how to go about it. Of the relatively few slabbed cards in my collection (all obtained either on the B/S/T section of this board or on eBay, for what I considered very good prices), most are in SGC holders. That provides some anecdotal support for the OP's observation about SGC-graded cards selling for less than PSA-graded ones, but it could also have something to do with the fact that many of them are Old Judges, and as Joe G. (I think) has pointed out, SGC grades more Old Judges than PSA does, and that trend has been accelerating in recent years.

All that being said, it's not the case that I pay no attention at all to potential resale value. All else being equal, I'd prefer to own cards that will hold their value in the future, which is why I generally try to get the nicest-condition, nicest-looking card that my limited budget will allow. But as with my investments in mutual funds, I have a very long-term time horizon, so any resale value I'm thinking of is many years in the future, probably decades. I figure if and when it ever comes time for me or my descendents to sell my (raw) cards, they can always be sent to a grading company if it would enhance their market value, as it probably would. But that's so far in the future that I'm not going to worry now about which grading company would be best to send my cards to, because so many things could change by then.

Are you guys still talking purely T206's? I mean I've noticed cards in SGC holders tend to sell for a bit less than their PSA counterparts but I have not noticed a full grade difference, which again is why I'm asking if you are talking exclusively T206's (which I own a few of but don't collect exclusively)?

As for non-T206s, I will say again there is a vast gap in value for Cracker Jack 1914s and 1915s.

I think it's fair to say that there is, in general, a reasonable gap for higher grade 1950s cards, and I would assume 1960s as well.

Here is an example of what I feel are different grading standards. I don't think a card with this much corner rounding would grade a PSA 5.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1909-11-POLA...item54190aa31e

SGC cases keep my mostly mid-grade / collector grade cards protected and they look great in them. I couldn't care less about how much a theoretical card graded an 8 by two different companies sells for. Nor am I frightened.

Peter, you are wrong on that--there were some really funky PSA 5s in the big t206 auction this weekend from Small Traditions. More like "3" corners.

Most of my 5s and the ones I have seen look much more like this, if not better.

Ha, true. I guess I needn't worry either as most of my cards are in that same collector grade (4-6) range and display far better in the SGC cases in my opinion.

I agree, that's some pretty heavy corner wear. Looks like a 4.

Ryan you really hit the nail on the head with this !!!

I've seen a few like that recently. Like maybe the last 6 months to a year.
And yes, I don't think they should be 5s

On the other hand it's making me think of resubmitting my 5s and 4s.

Steve B

SGC

The revamped registry isn't bad. But it's not a whole lot better than the old one.
Relevant? That's sort of silly. If you only collect PSA the SGC registry is just as irrelevant to you as the PSA registry is to me. Relevance is entirely subjective.

The changed then rechanged flip being a complaint is also amusing. They made a change customers didn't like and listened to their customers. I'm not seeing a problem other than a lack of market research that could have saved them some effort.

PSA

I haven't seen one, but from all I hear the new case is pretty good. Unless you use PSAs own storage boxes, then it's not so good. But a more tamper resistant case isn't a bad thing.

New flip?!?!? I didn't notice. really new? or just tweaks to the same design they've had since the start?

HEH! SGC registry had photos when I did my first submission- I forget when, maybe 2010? So much for innovation.

App? Haven't followed that. I'm betting I can't get it for my phone. It's apple/android only right? (Like every D*** app! Can I sue for discrimination? ) Just kidding, I know I probably can't.

SGC does have stuff they could do better. All companies do. I'd use PSA if they didn't have a silly cover charge. Pay me so you get the right to pay me ......for me that's pretty much a non starter.

Steve B

It could very easily have something to do with it being a Polar Bear. I'm sure that both PSA and SGC take into account for Polar Bears being way harder to get in great shape.

if this is occurring...this is a big problem.

I wouldn't doubt it in the slightest. I feel like Polar Bears have always gotten a little bit of leeway.

I strongly suspect that, for both grading services, high volume submitters tend to get better grades.

PSA hasn't required a membership to submit cards for grading in a long time. Yet, about once every six months or so, someone complains that they do. ;)

I wouldn't rule it out, but as a very low volume submitter I've received a few grades I thought were low, and a few that were at least mildly generous. Most have been accurate including a couple I thought were low that I asked about in person and the guy I asked very quickly found the small flaws I'd missed.

To some extent I think it may come down to experience If I submit say 1000 cards a month and take time to actually look at which ones didn't do as well as I'd thought I would eventually get better at removing those.

And from the opposite end, if a submitter has sent in say 750 cards that are certain 8s and 200 7s and 50 that Might be 8s or maybe 9s .......Maybe track record carries some weight. It shouldn't, but with nearly all people it will. Think of it like the veteran batter with a rep for not going after bad pitches. He'll get the benefit of a smaller strike zone. The same with a pitcher known for great control. He might get strikes on pitches off the plate.

I'd imagine there's similar stuff in all fields, in law are the guys who nearly always pick profitable winning cases given more leeway in which ones they decide to take?
I know if I say a bicycle thing can be fixed hardly anyone even questions it anymore. They may not want to pay the price, but the know it can be fixed.

Steve B

For Sure!

The above truth can be directly applied to the comment below

I've done cross overs on two dozen SGC 60 graded Polar Bears over to PSA and have only had three of them come back PSA 5. One came back PSA 4.5, some were 4s, one a 3.5, and four as trimmed (a separate topic for another day!). Just my two cent observation on the topic of Polar Bears. SGC graded Polar Bears like the link to the Cobb seem to be extremely poor candidates for a flip.

Doesn't inspire a lot of confidence, does it?

were those true cross overs or did you crack them first?

Peter, you may be correct. However, give this card sharper corners plus a crease, and it gets a "5" every day from PSA, IMHO.
Val

Half and half. After the trims came back I have started true cross overs, and no more cracking on Polar Bears.

Doesn't everyone know that you can't flip a polar bear, ................... unless the polar bear wants to flip.

https://video.search.yahoo.com/video...t=mozilla&tt=b

So Luke what do you have available for trims ???:D:D:D

Peter - Here is my most recent purchase for comparison to yours:

I think mine looks a bit better, though I'm not sure it would be a 6 (although the back is very nice! )

I think the dark background of the SGC case also has an influence.

I got mine for the PSA SMR price (which I use as a baseline when researching how much I should pay - I also sometimes get emotional and buy the card anyway lol )

Attachment 198165

Attachment 198166

What scares me more than anything else is that a collector will pay $1,000s of dollars for a perfect 10 common card worth probably about $5 - $10 just because it is graded by a human being as a perfect 10.

But don't get me wrong; grading has made me a lot of money, not because I graded cards, but because I have never graded cards. Dealers and collectors continue to buy my ungraded cards and always say, "why don't you have them graded yourself?"

Maybe I am a leftover from another generation, but if and when this "trend" has its peak, I will still be there (assuming I live that long) to keep all of my customers happy.

But if you still want to buy ungraded cards and get them graded on your own, see me at this year's National at booth 1110P, 6 booths in the door.

By the way, I have also enjoyed the past several months of posts. I am busy for most of the year on a huge project for the #1 business publication in the world, but when I get free, your knowledge and ability to share those details freely is unsurpassed. Thank you all!!! Stop by and say hello.

Steve Sabow DynamicTwo@aol.com

[QUOTE=frankbmd;1433265]Doesn't everyone know that you can't flip a polar bear, ................... unless the polar bear wants to flip.

Haha, Frank. That is awesome.

[QUOTE=LKeeler;1433292]A polar bear once asked me for a Coca-Cola but I flipped him off.

Does that count?
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I'm 29 and I can say no joke probably 90% of collectors in my age group collect either Beckett or PSA graded cards. You could even argue many have never heard of SGC. When you're getting back into collecting you generally like to collect cards you always wanted as a kid. Most of those cards are graded in PSA as my age group idolized stars from the 80s (if you're 30-45 years old probably 1970s players). From there you build loyalty to PSA especially because of the registry. Registry is so key. For teens they are collecting the modern players, and because modern card collecting is all about autograph cards, Beckett is very popular with teens today. SGC is totally nonexistent to them.

Also, a popular thing to do is to show your PSA submission mail returns on YouTube. You almost never see SGC videos online. People on this forum should post more SGC submission return videos to gain more interest in SGC for the younger crowd...it's all about social media these days.

Personally I collect SGC graded cards as I love the look of them with the T206s and for the simple fact that they are cheaper to submit and buy. That being said if I had to do it over again I would probably go with PSA as the registry is much stronger and like others have said, sell for more.

PSA's advantage is in the registry...and the marketing...which create a "perception" as has been stated. They most certainly do NOT offer a superior product to the other TPG'ers.

In all honesty, if this is seriously a problem for someone, it's a problem you've created yourself by playing this game in the first place. Unless people start ponying up an extra few hundo for a PSA 1 or SGC 40, this is something that will never affect me.

+1 for me too!

I'm still trying to get past the "Clayton Kershaw is overhyped" comment, myself.

I think that post was limited to Kershaw's far less than stellar playoff performance to date, Bill.

Highest regards,

Larry

Hi Larry,

I thought about that, but the comparison was made that Kershaw was over-hyped, while Sale just dominates. Sale has never even pitched in the post season, so that would be an odd comparison, to me. Kershaw has been a very mixed bag in post season baseball, absolutely. There have been a few times he was quite good. But taken as a whole, he's been awful.

But to suggest that Kershaw is over-hyped because he plays in Los Angeles, while Sale somehow flies under the radar because he plays in Chicago, is silly, imho. Some of the most hyped athletes in American sports history-Michael Jordan, Gale Sayers, Walter Payton, to name a few, have played their entire careers in Chicago (well, Jordan played two in Washington after being retired three years). That's not to question their greatness (or that of Chris Sale), but Kershaw has won three Cy Young Awards in four years (and was runner-up the other). He's been simply spectacular.

Since 1960, there have been 634 pitchers to throw 1,000 or more innings. Only Mariano Rivera, Hoyt Wilhelm (relievers) and Pedro Martinez have a higher ERA + in that time than Kershaw's 150. And since the start of the 2011 season, nearly five full seasons, his ERA + has been 167. That includes a record of 79-32 (.718 win pct), a 2.18 ERA, 1,122 Ks in 1,026.1 IP. His WHIP is a silly 0.951. He's led the National League in ERA and WHIP each of the last four years.

That's not hype, it's greatness. That 167 ERA + matches identically the same figure Sandy Koufax had in his last five seasons.

And they both begin with K

Bill all true, but when you get shelled in the playoffs it undercuts a lot of that in people's minds. Look at pre-roid confession ARod, whose legacy was already banged up from not performing in the post-season. Or, for much of his career, Bonds.

Imdee. :D:D:D

I'm just really enjoying the fact that all three (Koufax, Kershaw, & Sale) are left-handed!!
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T206 SGC 84 Ed Walsh,very tough Hofer, well centered (looked narrow to me), last night went for $1026 on Ebay. Enough said....

Kevin you should've been a lawyer!

Kershaw is the man...

I still thinks its cheesy for relievers to be in the Hall of Fame....Kershaw could of been great closer....so would Nolan ryan for example ..but would Rivera on the Yankees be a good starting pitcher.... Rivera is considered one of the best closers and he pitched like 1200 innings...Didn't Nolan ryan pitch that amount in like 7 years? Why does Nolan Ryan have to pitch another 15 years or so to prove his worth and pitch 5000+ innings....while rivera only has to pitch 1200

basially back to Kershaw....the fact hes a Starting Pitcher makes him more the man!

I guess I should have said, looks narrow to me, however, despite the grade..

I agree 100%
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1909-11-Pied...p2047675.l2557

it's scary, very scary:eek:

That's one of my favorite cards in the set, and a beautiful example.

Apples and oranges. A closer has a much narrower margin of error than a starter, as the game is usually on the line and a mistake is potentially much more costly. You can't just give up a run or two, settle into your rhythm and wait for your team to catch up. Great starters would not necessarily make great relievers. Rivera's worth for most of his career was unfathomable.

still 1200 is a small sample size in terms of innings versus 5000 innings.....plus the set up man many times gets the real 'save' ie. faces the 3rd 4th and 5th hitters..while the closer gets the bottom of the order and a 4th OF bat for the pitcher......the SP face the whole lineup several times... closers are worth a lot I agree..but not as much as stud pitchers....the best SP ever is way over the league of whoever the best closer is ever....

you can agree that more great SPs can be closers than great RPs to be SPs...... Smoltz and Eckersley both SPs who later became elite closers....not any elite (ie HOF type )SPs that used to be closers?


and again..6000 innings for a SP to make the HOF and only 1200 for a relief pitcher? So whats next...a pinch hitter with 2000 clutch ABs. versus someone with 10000 abs?

With the staining on the back from scrapbook glue I'd say that's a weak 7. A nice card, but I don't think it should get a 7. (Of course, if it was PSA it would be 7ST )

Steve B

Not HOFers, but RA Dickey, Kenny Rogers, Charlie Hough were pretty good starters who originally were relievers.

Punishing relievers for only pitching 1200 innings is like punishing pitchers for only playing 500 games.

Interesting.

They sure do hide that fact. Not a surprise since the club membership must be a good money maker.

I was just looking at the site, and it's a bit hard to find stuff. Kinda cluttered. Finally found the specials and they're not all that great this month. Nice price, but 25 card minimum and they need to be under $100 value . I think I've maybe done 30 -40 cards over several years. So while I can send in, it would be at the $17 rate which is a lot more than the $10 regular fee at SGC (whose specials this month are more than PSAs specials but with more value allowed and no minimum quantity. )

If I had a loads of modernish cards where the price difference would be worth it, I might join.
But for what I do SGC makes it really easy.

Steve B

I would be more concerned with the looks narrow than the price falling between a psa 7 and 6, which is where I would expect it to sell. I think more people are buying cards and not holders. I pass on cards in the grade I want all the time because I don't like the card.

That's right. You don't need a PSA membership to submit to PSA. However, if you want to use their specials, then you do need the membership. I've always found the membership worthwhile because for the Platinum membership, it averages out to ~$17 per card which is about the same for that declared value when there is a special on it. And you also receive a year's subscription to the SMR magazine and the free gift. The current free gift is just a t-shirt, which isn't anything special, but in the past, I've gotten the Cracker Jack and T206 books, which are nice coffee table items.

I do admit this month's SGC $10 special for cards under $500 is especially good. However, PSA's special for cards under $100 are pretty decent also. It's pretty rare for the specials to break $6 these days, and 25 cards minimum isn't bad. (In comparison, this month's Beckett special is $7 per card, and you need to submit 100 cards minimum. Of course, Beckett does not have a declared value maximum for their specials. That's still a lot of cards, however.)

I thought that the ST qualifier for PSA was only for wax stains and not for other types of stains. I could be wrong, however.

Psa
 

Does anyone know that if I joined the PSA collector's club, am I able to use my (6) free grading vouchers all for crossover reviews? Each of the cards are in the less than $499 declared value category.

Any info is appreciated.

Thanks,

Tony

Yes, you can. I believe the only caveat is that they must all be crossovers, however. That is, you can't put a PSA card in this submission for a review also along with SGC, Beckett cards. They *may* also need to be the same size, e.g., no mixing of postcard sized cards with standard size ones. However, I think they are somewhat lenient here when using the voucher.

Gary,

Thanks for the info and quick response. I'll post the results when I get my order back. They are in BGS and SGC slabs currently.

Tony

I'm an SGC guy but, to me, this card looks way overgraded. Those bottom two corners should have made it an SGC 80 (6). And there appears to be some edge wear on the top border as well, although it could just be my eyes. If it's edge wear, then that knocks it down to a 60 (5). IMO, the seller made out like a bandit on this card. No way it's worth $1026. The buyer obviously bought the holder and not the card.

http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MTA0NFg2Mz...VnvfI/$_57.JPG

I think many of the issues being discussed here can be avoided if one buys the card and not the holder...if this walsh is in fact narrow...this is likely why the price is/was low.

If one compares quality graded cards(cards that are especially nice for the grade)...I think the disparity will be much narrower...if at all.

+1

I buy PSA and BVG graded cards but I prefer SGC graded cards. I agree with Quan, you can get a better card in an SGC holder for the same price or even less than one in a PSA holder. In the pre-war cards I have often bought SGC 60s and some times 70s for less than PSA 4s. It's all in the eye appeal for me, for many others it is in the holder. I do agree that PSAs sell for more in post-war and even often in pre-war but if you can find a better looking card in a higher SGC holder, it's a no-brainer for me because I am a collector first and an investor second. Many are not and more power to them....

Tony, if you are going to National, you might want to wait until then to sign up for the PSA membership and voucher albeit you probably need to wait in a long line. This year, it looks like you can exchange your voucher for onsite grading although it's at a reduced rate. Link. In the past, they've also given away some freebies that you could sell on ebay and make part of your membership fee back. Unfortunately, it looks like this year, there is only a poster.

And paper loss above the "ME" in "AMER."?

You can break it up between crossovers and raw subs. I've done it and I'm doing it again. The caveat is you have to pay shipping for 2 separate orders. So account for it.

The upper left corner doesn't look so hot either.

true but not HOFs..and if talk about pretty good relievers that used to be starters its a much much longer list.......

basically I think Kershaw can do what M. Rivera did or much much closer than M. Rivera can do what Kershaw did..

I would say adam waighnright is one of the better SPs that was a reliever..but was only a reliever for a short time.... M. Rivera was a starting pitcher for a short time and was horrible...

Yes but so what. That's like saying more shortstops become third basemen than vice versa, or that more outfielders become first basemen than vice versa. Since a team needs both, I am not sure what the point is?

right teams need a good catcher who doesn't have to hit too..teams need lots of guys....but they all don't make the HOF

my point is SPs are on a whole different much higher level in the HOF versus closers....unless they can be judged on 1200 innings just like closers are and not 5000 + innings ..do we have to go through this again?

I switched from PSA to SGC years ago when I started getting PSA 5s off ebay that had obvious wrinkles or trimming problems. I don't mind an EX card with roundness to the corners, so long as there are no damn creases. I've never been failed by SGC on this front. When I buy a card that I can see centering and corner issues in the scan myself -- I don't need TPG for that -- I want to know, I want to trust, that there are no creases in it. Buy an SGC 60+ and you're much more likely to be right.

But, people want liquidity to their investments and are willing to tolerate the sordid history of the trimmed PSA 8 Wagner to maintain the ability of a quick flip to the next customer/collector. It's like I've said about JSA authenticated items -- it doesn't matter if it's real or not; it only matters what James Spence says. And that's a scary place to be.

If your goal is to kill SGC off, and drive prices up for your PSA cards, then starting this post makes a lot of sense. But beware a single monopoly dictating grades and values. Because then quality will lag, people will get pissed off, liquidity will freeze up, and values will drop. You want healthy competition between two or three responsible TPGs. It's a very good thing for our hobby.

Well said Paul. Also if I've said it once I've said it a thousand times. If you're buying quality items (in all grades) then you're fine. There will always be a market for quality items regardless of SGC/PSA. If there isn't then the hobby has serious issues and no TPG will be your savior.

With that said SGC does a piss poor job being a good competitor to PSA it should be a Coke vs. Pepsi world. Instead its more like Coke vs. Larry's Soda Company of NJ or FL. When you think small as a small business owner you remain small...one has to think big and push for innovation. This isn't something SGC does. PSA however does a bit better job...in this area.

Cheers,

John

I agree John.

I see so much potential in SGC, but it seems they are content with their market share.

FWIW, I came here from the SGC board and once sang their greatness.
I still search for SGC cards, because I can get them cheaper.

Sgc/psa
 

While it is clear that PSA cards bring higher $ than SGC cards of the same grade the question is why and does it matter to a collector. I believe the psa registry collectors who will pay more for PSA. This is a simple dynamic. Besides spending the time energy and money trying to cross the cards they often don't cross at the same grade so PSA collectors like myself are willing to pay more for PSA over SGC. One other factor is that PSA is part of a larger company that grades coins stamps etc.. They are a more substantial stable company which makes there cards safer investments as well. PSA is a pain to deal with but I think there grading while sometimes a head scratcher is fairly consistent. SGC is cheaper and easier to deal with that is for sure. In my opinion SGC over grades and grades items like S74 silks terribly. On top of all that the recent fiasco with the Standard Biscuit cards where they graded crudely cut strip cards with a lame standard biscuit stamped back as 84's that went to auction shows they are not trustworthy with authenticity. I have nothing against them but the standard biscuit fakes would never have been graded at PSA. I know SGC is popular and I get why. It just makes more sense from an investment standpoint with pricey vintage cards to collect PSA
Rick Clemens

While I agree with this part of your post, I do not with the rest. The Standard Biscuit fiasco, as you call it, was close enough where it is at least somewhat excusable, IMO. The cards were not "crudely cut" at all; if anything, they were a bit too sharp. The "lame stamped back" was apparently close enough to fool you, as you bought one of the cards.
http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...hlight=biscuit I don't for a minute have trouble believing they could have passed through PSA as well, as all the companies have had trouble with this set for years. PSA is the company that graded a reprint Ruth rookie with a numeric grade!! Talk about being on alert as to what to look for in one of the most prestigious cards in the hobby and then blowing it.

As for PSA grading coins, they are absolutely horrid at grading PX7 discs, so that that additional area of ""expertise" certainly has not translated.

So the debate can continue on investors vs. collectors etc, and how SGC seems unable or unwilling to expand its brand, but their ability to prove authenticity is at least as strong, and in my view stronger, than PSA.