I've always said the church could learn a lot from this hobby. I've never seen a larger collection of more forgiving people.

Gives you a lot of confidence in graded cards, doesn't it, when they slab a trimmed Wagner and a rebacked Plank, cards obviously deserving of a far more exacting review than most.

Mastro's actions were just as bad if not significantly worse. You should cut the crap and write a letter to the judge explaining how badly they have both damaged the hobby. You're the owner of this board and a leading voice in the hobby. "Leading" is what leaders do. Mastro sent you a gift/bribe for a reason -- because he wanted your help with a positive letter to the court. Can you actually say with a straight face that this man deserves a letter praising him to the judge? Can you actually say with a straight face that the judge doesn't deserve to hear the truth about Mastro and the true extent of his fraud on our hobby?

Lastly, he could have agreed to restitution to his victims -- all of the people who were defrauded in his auctions. And he didn't.

+1

I think more willfully blind than forgiving. A man sees what he wants to see and disregards the rest, as the song goes.

You can ask that your letter not be publicly docketed and just provided to the parties instead.

And Pete Nash is going to rip you or not rip you regardless of what you do here. And honestly, Leon, I wouldn't be surprised if he gives you hell for this thread alone.

At the risk of appearing to be a bit green, do people here think TPGs simply missed this alteration (and the others) because it was so good or is there likely to have been someone at the TPG who was on the take?

I think he was being sarcastic.

Yes, Mastro altered an even more expensive card, but I doubt that's the point you are trying to make.

How the heck did that T206 Plank even pass the authenticating company with an altered back? Was that PSA? Shouldn't they be held responsible in some way? Apparently they didn't do there job or even know what there doing. Or were they in bed together? Boy alot of questions need to be answered.

Perhaps but it's true. In the name of stuff people forgive almost anything.

Mastro and Allen are no longer selling cards. There is no reason to keep your mouth shut in exchange for buying their cards.

I have no idea in this case, but there are people out there who are very skilled in this sort of work, and remember PSA is not the FBI.

Lethal injection and/or restitution!

Anyone want to guess at the odds of Allen and/or Theotikis showing up in Chicago next month?

With respect to Peter's suggestion that its difficult to write a letter if you don't know that you've been defrauded (in part because Mastro destroyed bidding records), isn't concealment sort of the quintessential essence of fraud? Concealment, non-disclosure, false representation, deceit. Failure to disclose material facts when you have a duty to speak is fraud. Half-truths can be fraud, because there is a duty to tell the actual truth, not part of it. I don't know that I would suggest he was a fiduciary, but he damn sure told people that they could submit max bids and that those bids would be held in confidence and not utilized unless/until another bidder (who I think most people would have fairly inferred was not the auction house) topped the existing bid. That apparently didn't happen on a relatively frequent basis.

Also, at least where I'm from, destruction of relevant evidence in and of itself creates an inference that the evidence which was destroyed would have been adverse to the party who destroyed it. The fact that occurred is fairly damning IMO, and is indicative of fraud and shilling on a far more widespread basis than indicated in the plea agreement IMO.

Even apart from the damage to the hobby and the fact that people are most likely paying inflated prices due to the shilling of cards someone else was unfortunate enough to win, I think there is plenty of reason for everyone who bid in Mastro's auctions to assert that they were likely defrauded. I guess I also need to write a letter....

Kenny that's fine, by all means write the letter, I didn't mean to suggest it wasn't appropriate, just that I personally was not enthused for the reasons stated. But relatedly, I would be interested in your view on this, which I haven't fully thought through myself. Suppose all the evidence you had for trial is what you have now from the public record, namely Mastro's admissions. You don't get bidding records, discovery, etc. Do you think as a private plaintiff you can win on a claim that YOU were defrauded? Is there enough to draw that inference under a clear and convincing evidence standard, or even under a preponderance standard? And if you think yes, based on destruction of evidence or whatever rationale, what are your damages, how would you calculate them?

I wrote my letter...took maybe 20 minutes in front of the tv.

Anyone who has ever bid on a baseball card in an auction has a duty to write a letter...be it ebay, Goodwin, REA, Legendary...any one. Unless you like giving money to crooks that is.

We all have a beef in this fight. Don't be lazy!

I personally don't want to write a letter in circumstances where I have no strong basis to believe I am a direct victim. That doesn't make me lazy, and I don't see why I have a duty. I could make the same argument about any crime that affects people broadly. Should I write letters every time some financial fraudster is sentenced? It certainly COULD have affected me in some way.

That's your prerogative Peter. I won my former m101-6 ruth from legendary in aug 12'...and there's a chance I was shilled.

A handful of auction houses have admitted to shill bidding in the past...in addition to the nonsense on ebay...chances are you've won a card from one of these houses I'd bet!

If you don't think Bill Mastro should be able to walk away from this virtually scott free without paying retribution or doing serious time...DON'T DO ANYTHING.

If you think he should pay a price for his indiscretions...maybe be made an example of...write a letter.

I feel much more strongly about the card doctors who will never face justice than about whether Mastro gets a few extra months or not. To me, the damage they have inflicted, and continue to inflict, is much more significant than Mastro and all the other houses running people up. I don't condone it, and yes it sucks and the guilty should be punished, but to fixate on that to the exclusion of a worse problem is to my mind myopic.

Peter, you've contrarianed yourself into a pretzel.

Well you set an example for me, Jeff.

Edited to add:)

Yeah, I sure have. Keep rubbing your temples and explaining how you're not affected by Mastro's massive fraud. Or maybe you just don't want to write a letter to the court because you helped a friend shill some of his Mastro lots?

Edited to add :)

I never claimed to be unaffected, you are mischaracterizing my words. I said I am not sure enough that I have been affected to write the equivalent of a victim impact statement. There is a difference, no?

Well...it seems to me that you have to start somewhere...and the lighter the sentence Mastro gets...the lighter the sentence/fine the card doctor will get when he/she is brought to justice.

But the card doctor will never get in trouble...for what they do in and of itself is not against the law...but providing a venue to distribute these known...altered cards is!

The letter to the court is not a victim impact statement -- it is a letter discussing Mastro's character and the impact he has had on the hobby. It is not a victim impact statement.

i didn't get a dinner or a gift, and i bidded and won a few 5figs cards in mastro throughout the years...gonna cover my bases and write that letter. dude was always too upbeat for my taste, kinda creepy.

The ones I read seemed to be, for the most part anyhow. So I guess that is how I had thought about them. I had not thought the Court would be interested in more general observations about the hobby.

What if he sends you an Andre Ethier rookie card in PSA 7? Can you be bought?

probably a smart thing to stay away from the mastro/psa or allen/psa combo at this point.

I think it would largely depend on the judge and what he/she would let in. I'm not saying it would be an ideal case by any means, but I'm not sure it would be a loser either. You can prove fraud by circumstantial evidence and I don't necessarily have a problem doing that. I don't know why you think I wouldn't get discovery though. That seems kind of unrealistic. It would be fun to take a deposition where Mastro can't plead the 5th because he's already pled out and even if he does, you get to draw an adverse inference and talk to the jury about that in a civil case. Adverse inference from record destruction, adverse inference if he tries to plead the 5th, admissions that he shilled and cheated people -- I think the right jury might get irritated with that sort of stuff. We assert fraud in many of our cases, and I don't really think most juries distinguish, or even care, about the difference between clear and convincing and preponderance of the evidence. At least that's my experience.

If the conduct is bad, I really don't worry that much about damages. It's kind of like pleading punis. I'm not necessarily a huge fan of that because it causes you extra work and if the jury is mad enough to award them, I have always believed that they will find a place to stick them even if you don't ask for them. I'd throw out the number paid for whatever items the client bought, maybe show what they had sold for before, and fight about whether I had to quantify the non-economic stuff. I have only lost that once, and even then the judge said the number wouldn't come in when we tried the case. It settled, so I don't know if the judge would have stuck to his guns.

Oh you would get discovery of course, it was just a hypothetical about the current state of play and whether it's enough to conclude one was defrauded. I guess with my defense bias I think it's a bit speculative based on the current record but you make a good argument, as always.

This is some seriously sleazy stuff to read.....to me 10 years sound about right.

http://i.imgur.com/smfrSwd.png

http://i.imgur.com/c7NvYLX.png

http://i.imgur.com/EwNcpKb.png

wow, Chris...crazy!!!! My letter went out in the mail today...I am surprised at the general lack of apathy regarding this and cleaning up this hobby in general.

It's very sad to me!

Sad indeed!

Yes, the email to the consignor about hitting it one more time and letting it go has been discussed here before.

You mean general apathy, not lack of apathy. Maybe if Mastro had overcharged someone a dollar for shipping there would be more interest here.

Sounds like someone needs a free dinner at the National to get his mind right. Go ahead, order the creme brulee.

Or post #1,000,000 about a Wagner reprint on ebay. :rolleyes:

whatever!!!

Letter sent
 

Thanks for bringing it to light. Sent my letter off today.

You would be suprised how easy it is for even a half assed card doctor to get stuff by ANY of the grading companies. THey are not highly paid experts. They are there to make the grading company $ by grading cards as fast and accurately as posible.

And yet collectors are still willing to pay astronomical amounts of money for high grade cards based solely on the assessment of the TPG. Why is that?

The grading companies give the buyer a false sence of security that their card in not altered/counterfiet. That is if the slab is even real and not counterfiet. JMHO

Some are naïve, others willfully blind.

Jeff- I'm sorry I haven't been following this more closely but I've taken a brief hiatus from the Board. Has the Pre-Sentence Screening Report come back in his case but the US Attorney is offering a 5k so a downward variance/departure can be obtained and he is recommending 30 months? As we both know, it is still up to the judge whether or not the 5k for substantial assistance to the US Atty's office (i.e. "rolling over" and "ratting") will be accepted. It just seems like 30 months for the number of people allegedly scammed (including, possible, your's truly because I bid on a number of card lots in his auctions over the years) is awfully light. Just saying...
Bob

With his 5K1, Mastro will be getting a recommendation of under 30 months from the government with zero restitution and zero forfeiture for his crimes.

His enablers will be doing a bit better.

Can he go back into the auction business or is he banned?

There's nothing in his cooperation agreement which suggests he's not permitted back into the hobby.

Leon, a mutual friend of ours who carries a gun asked me to post your comments about Mastro from October 2013:

"Even though I have considered Bill a hobby friend, and understand I was shill bid, I didn't have the amount of disrespect towards him which I do now, until I read his statement. That statement accepts no responsibility of his misdeeds. He caused his own problems, no one else. He really needs to accept responsibility for his actions. I find his statement disgusting. There were 2 letters? I can guarantee there will be at least 3 by the end of the day today."

21 months later we're still waiting for your letter.

I sent mine today.

One would think he would move on; but then again it's what he knows and loves.

deleted
 

:-)

I sent a letter to the judge last August. I sent another one yesterday. FWIW.

I think the biggest crime for you is that no one has informed you to stop using a Windows machine and Internet Explorer.

Old school and stubborn.:)

I've been away for the past week - so sorry joining in late.

My two cents is that there was likely a wide scale scheme to defraud for quite a long period of time in various capacities. The most egregious was knowingly selling fake memorabilia - such as the phony Elvis hair or the 1869 Redlegs baseball. Next, and nearly as egregious was selling doctored cards. And yes there was the shill bidding - which is fraud.

To me, the selling of the fake and doctored items is the fraud that keeps on giving since those items will at some point and time will be or have been re-sold and this is the stuff that needs to be sought out and removed and the buyers need to be compensated. I'm not trying to minimize shill bidding, but it's obviously next to impossible to prove if all or most of the evidence has been destroyed and the damages amount to just some percentage of the item purchased (typically 10% to 30%).

no comment same result :)

It seems we have a reasonable sense of the extent of the shill bidding from the Mastro plea agreement, but no information if the card altering bombshell in the Allen plea agreement was a one off thing (I doubt it) or just the tip of the iceberg and part of a regular practice.

My hunch is they used house accounts to bid up lots to hidden reserves agreed to with consignors. Im sure that was common practice for Mastro and its employees was to give false promises or kickbacks to land high end consignments back in the day. Consignors I imagine, did not read the fine print or terms and conditions with the auction and took them for their word since they sell millions each year.

Back when Mastro was was the premire auction company, reserves were rarely seen or advertised. It was not "industry standards" As few auction companies just started out lots at higher amounts. Mastro liked to start out lots lower letting the "market set the price". I have won probally more than 100 lots between both Mastro and Legendary.

I can only imagine who the under bidder was on all my lots won.

I would think that former Mastro/Legendary consignors would be upset if they were told one thing and then it played out differently. Another form of fraud thats never discussed. I imagine that contracts disapeared too along with the bidding history is my guess.

I will end this with a silver lining that no matter what I won, that chances are very good that my investment has risen in value. Look at how well the card market as a whole has done over the last 15 years. Im sure Ive been bumped or pushed higher by auctions houses, and it stinks to think about it... But, I was still willing to Bid the winning amount and when the card(s) came in, I was glad I did.

Letter will be written soon even though my story has been told.

Lichtman....party of one.....now seating......

Check me if I'm wrong, but "Hit it again?" was a question directly asked to YOU was it not?

Is this letter going to be a positive one?

This post was with the bidder hat on.:eek:

According to the government, the indictment and Mastro, JC was a co-conspirator. Technically, I suppose he could also have been a victim on items he bid on. That being said, a letter from JC to the court about Mastro will probably be met with ridicule or stunned silence. Which is why so many hobby leaders and Net 54 senior members are silent when discussions of Mastro's fraud arise. A misspelled word in a post, a discussion about a dinner -- that they'll chime in on. Mastro fraud? Nope, they need to sit that one out in order to not take the chance of their involvement being exposed.

Most likely it was Doug trying to get the consigner to take less money than what the agreed upon reserve was!!! Mastro only got paid when stuff sold. Maybe the consigner said NO WAY and the card was returned to him.

Your name, please?

I'm just getting around to reading this thread. Disappointed and shocked not surprised by the justice system on this.

I could go on for hours about these guys Mastro, Allen etc. bottom line is they are crooks and con men. They may be like able crooks but still crooks.

How pathetic to send gifts to key people. I would be insulted to get such a gift and I could never really enjoy it knowing it came at the expense of so many collectors. Let alone is nothing more than a shallow attempt to bribe away past deeds. Sorry not giving up my integrity or land for some shiny beads from a trickster. Better be one hell of gift these guys got.

Leon as for you and your letter being public and Nash dragging or twisting who cares. The guy will be weaving stories and yarns till he drops dead. He tried that crap with me the best he could come up with was a picture and calling me a "Lifson fanboy" and using a calculator to add up my posted shared net54 REA winnings...and he even screwed that up. Bottom line if you're above board and have no hobby skeletons what could he possibly say or twist that's my view. At least Elkins was creative.

To those who think why write a letter who cares, it's not gonna help. You're wrong. While Mastro, Allen and gang played their games we all paid the price. While you may not have been directly shilled or perhaps you were and don't know I can promise you one thing. If you collect today or have bought any item hobby related you were affected. By raising prices thru games such as shilling, fake sales etc. all prices in the hobby went up because of historical past sales which in effect were not real. That unfortunately for us all cost the items we collect to be more expensive.

This is no different than some oil companies manipulating the cost of crude, or banking institutions messing with rates and loans. It all costs us more at the pump and our house values to be affected.

So Bill if you're reading this please send me a gift so I can send back with a copy of my letter. You may feel bad you may not don't really care. You did the crime so pay up. But if I were you I wouldn't worry to much you have one thing going for you. Countless lazy, naive and not so honest collectors who will once again turn a blind eye and then piss and moan about it later.

If you feel Bill is an ok guy you're either really naive or there's something else going on. That's my two cents.

Cheers,

John

"Most likely"??? Do you have insider info?

I might have phrased it
 

don't you have inside information?

Strange post by JC, indeed. Most peculiar, mama.

Yes hang anyone who commits a crime. I had a neighbor who killed his wife by slamming her ahead against a pole in the basement and stored her body in a freezer for 3 years. . He spent 7 years in jail. Is that enough, I don't think so, so I don't think Mastro needs a harsher sentence just because we collect cards. Think about it.


Joe

Hmmm so because he didn't kill and store a woman in a freezer, collectors/victims shouldn't expect more in terms of a sentence for his crimes.

Here's what I'll "think about" what possible medications you must have forgot to take to type the above.

.

Some thoughts:

1) there's a happy medium in between a life sentence and a few months in prison with no restitution paid to his victims and his claim, on the very day he pleaded guilty, that his victims were unfairly critical of him.

2) Probably time to move.

3) Um, you didn't receive a gift from Bill, did you?

It's good you aren't under oath or I might have believed everything you have said in this thread.

I'm a lawyer and not a criminal defendant who had to take an oath prior to pleading guilty. There's a difference.

You are a bold faced liar too.

Hey, don't blame me for holding up a mirror to your face and forcing you to eat your own words. You complain about fraud in the hobby and yet when push comes to shove you've defended Mastro and Allen for years. For years. There's not a single word I've ever said about Mastro or Allen that is not the truth and we both know it.

I* am going to leave it alone Jeff. I am not defending anyone. I wasn't writing a letter before your badgering of me, or after the few trinkets given to me (which I won't have anymore after today). Nothing swayed me ..... I have confidence in the judge making a good decision. I am sorry you don't.

And absolutely both of those guys will get what's coming to them. Restitution should have been a part of each plea...for that part I think it was unfair.

and lastly, your quoting me is not a big deal. I WAS going to write a letter at one time but changed my mind due to several factors, not just Nash....I hope I am allowed to change my mind?