My vote

He wasn't actually in the T206 set.

at the Baker Bowl? 260 feet?

on my best day, even I might have done that.

Oh, and the home run wasn't king until the Babe made it so.

That's still a lot of black ink in a monstrous peak in his later years and when he debuted it took him a while.

Babe Ruth became synonymous with the home run. It doesn't mean there were no kings before him.

His career OPS+ is 151. That is park adjusted. Short career, but that is 32nd in the history of the sport.

Tom C

It is not park adjusted. They adjust for runs scored, but that doesn't account for 265 foot fly balls that he got credited for home runs which would be outs in any other park. He only hit 20 home runs on the road, less than two per season. His OPS at home was .986, on the road .772.

He only played 100 games in 7 seasons. He couldn't stick in the majors with the Red Sox, White Sox or Senators. Only when he made it to the Phillies was he good enough to stick in the majors, taking advantage of the home field. If he was a HOFer, he would have played longer and made it as a full time player before age 31. His career was too short and too home field aided to be a Hall of Famer, in my opinion.

Baker Bowl or not, Cravath had a peak bested by very few in history. He was probably the best player on that 1915 Phillies team which won the pennant. He absolutely should be in.

How come no one talks about Fenway's short porch to right field but the Baker Bowl is always a point of contention?

Polo Grounds left field foul pole was 279 and right field 258. That was for two teams at this time period.

Tom C

I think very few would agree that he was better than Pete Alexander. I guess if you think Craveth should be in, we should ignore the Coors Field factor and put in those Rockies with home park inflated stats.

I was referencing position players, and really, I wouldn't have much of a problem with Larry Walker or Todd Helton.

Cravath was doing stuff in his day that players simply did not do.

He was the prototype for the modern player. But it makes sense Cravath isn't in because neither is Stovey. Stovey was Mike Trout and Mickey Mantle before anyone even knew it was possible to play baseball that way.

Both Cravath and Stovey would make my Hall.

I don't see how a guy with 5 great years in an 11 year career should be a HOF'er. (and those great years aren't at Koufax type levels either) Yes his wRC+ of 150 is very good, but it is inflated by 3 very high years. If you are gonna let people in with those sorts of careers, you might as well open the floodgates.

and yes Larry Walker and Todd Helton are more deserving as they were as good or better for longer.

Keep in mind that this is also because his career was shortened and didn't get his chance early on, but more than made up for it in his thirties.

Walker gets a raw deal. All it takes is a few minutes of research to see he was not a product of Coors.

I get that, he didn't even make it to MLB until he was 27. BUT, we have to judge players by what they did and not by what they might have done.

IF, Josh Donaldson has one more great year then declines into a 1.4 WAR player over his last 4 years would he be a HOF'er? That's kinda the argument you are making. I would say no, not good enough for long enough.

but, as I have stated before, I am a "small hall" guy and think too many borderline players are in already.

yet I think Jim Kaat deserves it, so there goes that right! :D

I also am a Kaat supporter.

Cravath not only debuted at 27, he spent 29 and 30 in the minors.

His offense was fantastic, even at the end.

That is the problem. He wasn't good enough to play in the majors at a time when he should have been in his prime. He failed for 3 different teams before landing in a stadium where he could thrive. .273/.363/.410 are is career numbers in road games. It is no wonder he failed in Boston, Chicago and Washington. .410 slugging percentage for a guy whose strength was as a power hitter.

The other two numbers aren't bad, but that seems like spin to me. As far as I'm concerned, it doesn't seem he was given a fair shake until later.

I don't think you can really say he failed. He was playing in the PCL until he was 27 years old. You might see PCL today and think minor leagues, but at the time it was the major leagues of the West. Players made almost the same amount of money and could play close to home, so many of them did just that.

Keep in mind it's the National Baseball Hall of Fame. Not the MLB Hall of Fame. I have no doubt he'd be a lot better known if there was the technology and social media we have now back in his day.

He played 117 games before he got to the Phillies. That is more than a fair shake. He didn't play well enough to stick in the majors and was sent down. A HOFer in his prime years should have been able to stick.

The PCL may have been better than a minor league. That doesn't change the fact that he wasn't able to make the jump to the majors until being sent down for 2 years and then landing in a favorable stadium that allowed him inflate his stats. This sounds to me like a good but not great player who has no business in the HOF.

7 full years just isn't enough for a guy who struggled to make the big leagues and was average away from the Baker Bowl.

Just curious if you were aware that Cravath was a right handed batter hitting his homeruns to right field? It takes tremendous ability to do that. Also, the original Yankee Stadium dimensions were 295 feet to right field and only 281 feet to left field. Do you discount Ruth and Gehrig's totals knowing that?

Keep in mind it's the National Baseball Hall of Fame. Not the MLB Hall of Fame. I have no doubt he'd be a lot better known if there was the technology and social media we have now back in his day.

He also had a 137 OPS+ with Boston in 94 games in 1908. He did struggle in 23 games in 1909 between two clubs, but does anyone make a Hall of Famer in their first 117 games? Of course not. So why is someone not a Hall of Famer in their first 117 games?

Very rarely do I support short career players. Cravath is a rare exception.

I believe Sheckard is worth talking about.

Cravath should be in
Dinneen probably should be as well for his all round


How about Fielder Jones????

Sorry if I missed them above, but I don't think anyone's mentioned Overall, Schulte, or Latham. Not that I really think they belong in the Hall (Overall isn't even eligible), but I think they were as good as most of the folks that have been mentioned in this thread.

Dahlen is the only one in T206 who deserves it as a player and hasn't been enshrined yet. Dinneen is a good pick for total contributions to the game.

The best pre-steroid era guys who haven't gotten in yet are Jim McCormick, Bob Caruthers, and Shoeless Joe.

I wouldn't be bothered by Sheckard getting inducted, but I'm not a cheeeleader for him, either. Sherry Magee absolutely must get in before we can start even thinking about Sheckard.

Overall didn't pitch long enough. Schulte had an amazing 1911, but it takes more than one Hall of Fame season to be a Hall of Fame player.

I agree with everything you wrote, and I retract nothing of what I wrote.

I see nothing spectacular about Fielder Jones. Nice player. Nothing special.

Who was Schulte as good as? He was no Sherry Magee. That's for sure.

Player Manager of the "Hitless Wonders" I know it's a bit of a stretch but I'm surprised that his name is never mentioned. Posted a 426-293 managerial record. Pretty good win%

Like Dinneen I'm for his interactions in baseball besides a player. Donie Bush?????

No love for him? Considered one of the top fielding SS's in baseball in his day over 1,800 hits.

A Manager
A Owner
A Scout
An Executive

You can't get more versatile than that can you?

Jimmy Sheckard? .270 career batting average with just over 2,000 hits in 17 years? Really? You were the guys busting my balls about Ed Reulbach, better re-group.....I dont get this choice at all.....

Lots of managers with more wins and more championships aren't in.

So, going back to the first page of the thread, many have been listed from the T206 set potentially being HOF worthy. I'm going to split this up in different categories. These are only my opinions.

Hall of Fame worthy

Bill Dahlen - One of the best players not in the Hall of Fame from any era at any position. The VC really messed up in December. Was terrific offensively and defensively and helped his teams win four pennants in his career. His 44 game hitting streak is second only to Joe DiMaggio among right handed batters. Nobody in history played more games at the time he retired and his longevity still holds today.

Sherry Magee - 4x RBI champ, hit very well in all of those seasons. Metrics rank him well and it can be argued he's better than many leftfielders already in. He could do it all and has been erroneously overlooked.

Larry Doyle - The best second baseman in the National League during his time. He was also the best position player on the Giants during their winning of multiple pennants. One came during an MVP season in 1912 and would probably be a World Champion had it not been for Snodgrass' Muff. Just as how Sherry Magee is arguably a top 15 leftfielder ever, I think Doyle could be top 15 all time at second.

Gavvy Cravath - I get the argument against him, but he absolutely dominated during his short peak.

Bill Dinneen - As a pitcher alone he is not a Hall of Famer, but when you combine his pitching career with his umpiring career, it's hard to justify his exclusion.

Could go either way

Jimmy Sheckard - He wasn't that bad of a player and worth doing more research on. No way should he get in before Sherry Magee, but a future induction would hardly taint Cooperstown.

Not Hall of Fame worthy

Deacon Philippe - I changed my mind here
I think Reulbach was better and I wouldn't put Reulbach in. Out of those Pirate teams, only Babe Adams deserves it and he's not in the set.

Ed Reulbach - Just falls short for me.

George Mullin - Would challenge Rube Marquard for the title of the worst pitcher inducted.

Fielder Jones - Nothing stands out.

Wildfire Schulte - If one season made you a Hall of Famer, he'd have been one of the earliest inductees of an overcrowded Hall.

Chief Meyers - Good, just below ten seasons, however.

Tommy Leach - You could pretty much categorize him in the Hall of Mistakes that the Frisch Committee monopolized. Though Cuyler could stay in my personal Hall.

Johnny Kling - He could be the worst catcher in the HOF and would be one of the worst players at any position.

Hal Chase and Ed Konetchy - I would just focus on modern era first basemen, with Konetchy probably being closer to deserving.

George Gibson and Jimmy Archer - You know have no business being worthy of Hall discussion when Johnny Kling looks good by comparison.


Again, these are only my opinions. I thought I'd respond to a majority of the names listed here.

I dont know you're name, but what is the argument for Sheckard? Please, because I'm clueless.....Also, Chase????

Nice WAR

121 OPS+

Not the worst batting average or OBP in the world.

One of the better leftfielders not in

Fast indivual and a key part of the Cubs title wins

Hall of Merit


Someone many pages back name dropped Chase.

Bill Dinneen.....170-177....What the Hell have you been smoking?????? Also, a 3.10 ERA in that ERA is very high....

Like I said, he is not worthy as a pitcher. He is worthy as an umpire/contributor.

He was also a highly respected ump...but I think Jim Kaat and Tommy John are both considerably more deserving.

I am fine with all three.

No offense pal, but you are clueless.....

Why is that? Are you not aware of his umpiring accomplishments?

Just curious, how do you rate Roberto Clemente??

A worthy Hall of Famer and legend. Why? I think we can all agree Clemente deserves his place.

Bill Dineen umpired 8 World Series and was behind the plate for the original All Star game. His 8 World Series is a mark held by him and Tommy Connolly, a HOFer. So what makes him not a HOF umpire?

\

I like your format and I'll use the same but switch it up to my picks. I'm a little more lenient.

Hall of Fame worthy

Bill Dahlen
Sherry Magee
Larry Doyle
Gavvy Cravath
Bill Dinneen
Ed Reulbach
Chase
Konetchy --- C'mon guys
Deacon Philippe - 1903 WS??? And look at the huge W-L gap decent ERA for his era as well
Donie Bush - too much good for this guy, not talked about enough IMO

Could go either way

Jimmy Sheckard
Tommy Leach - I like Leach a lot but his .269 average is what holds him back big time.
Chief Meyers
Kling

Not Hall of Fame worthy

George Mullin
Fielder Jones
Wildfire Schulte
George Gibson
Jimmy Archer -

Worth mentioning that at that time, a player could only win the MVP once.

Dinneen is 100% a HOFer:

-40 Years of contributions to baseball
-A no-hitter
-4 20-win seasons
-Led the league in saves twice.
-For many seasons he was at the top of his league for WAR and ERA.
-He basically won the World Series for the Americans (1903)
-In the 03 Series he won three games and pitched 11 strikeouts in game 2.
-28 strikeouts overall in the series, :eek::eek::eek: and two shutouts:eek:
-pitched 37 consecutive complete games earning the record for the most consecutive innings without being relieved (337 consecutive)
-As said above 8 WS Umpired, and 5 No-no's
-Umpired a ton of games (more than O'Day, Conlan and Chylak)
-6th for career games a HP Ump
-I could have made this list twice as long

Also +1 on Donie Bush for the HOF. Fun Fact: He discovered Pee Wee Reese as a scout (one of his lesser known accomplishments)

-Owen:)

I've been waiting for you to contribute on Dinneen Owen :)

And Bob Johnson...

Tom C

I like Latham. He's an interesting and good choice and is certainly in the category worth mentioning as the others.

Not so sure about Orval.

If Indian Bob Johnson were playing today would he be called Native American Bob Johnson?

I feel like I'm in the middle here on this topic. There are some players not in the Hall from the set I think should be in. Some standards are too stingy. Others advocate for terrible choices, in my opinion.

Imagine putting Vince Coleman in the Hall of Fame. That basically sums up Latham.

I gotta say, the only one on your list I think deserves it as a player is Dahlen. (I get the Dinneen argument for total contribution to the game tho)

you rang??? :D:D:D


as far as the Clemente question you were posed earlier, that dude has a hard time understanding that when you say a player is better at defense than another player (like say Andruw Jones over Clemente) you aren't saying that the former was a better all around player than the latter, just that they were better at defense. He got all bent out of shape over this, for some reason.

I ssw Doc White here earlier. I see nothing too special. He had a couple nice seasons but a typical deadball player, really.

NO Gil Hodges??? NO Dale Murphy? NO Keith Hernandez? NO (insert many far-more-deserving names here, but...)

p.s. I know none of the above are T206, but, just for the sake of argument...sorry, just not feelin' it for Sheckard - UNLESS I was sittin' on a binder full of T206 Sheckard (there's exceptions to every "accepted" rule, ya know???)

JMO

DS

The only one you just mentioned who would get my support for Cooperstown is Hernandez.

Honestly before I started collecting the Monster many of these players I never heard of. I knew the big names like Wagner, Cobb, Plank, Mathewson, Johnson, basically all the Hall of Famers. I also knew of the likes of Dahlen, Magee, Cravath. I couldn't tell you anything about them, but I knew the name. I had no clue who Larry Doyle or Jimmy Sheckard were. This set taught me them and also I learned they were fantastic players.

there are lots of problems with the hall of fame, but that's what makes in interesting. If you use the worst player in the hall of fame as the litmus test for who belongs, pretty much everyone north of David Eckstien has an argument. making it more complex, winning 220 games in the 1980s is very different than willing 220 games in 1910 and will be exceedingly different than winning 220 games in 2020, just as hitting 500 homers in the 1930s or 40s is different than doing it in the 1990s. Plus the argument are you ranking players for their longevity or their pinnacle? That's what makes it a good argument.

How good were they during their pimnacle? How long enough did they play? What position were they?

These are all questions to ask, too.

I think the true test should be: was this person one of the three best players at their position during their career? If the answer is yes, then I don't see how that person isn't a HOFer. In the case of Larry Doyle, he was unquestionably the best second baseman of his time. So how is he not a HOFer?

Pitchers would be a different story because at any given time there could be an infinite amount of top pitchers. I wouldn't use the top three as an indicator for them.

I'd say Doyle was third behind only Collins and Lajoie. In that case, it'd be tough to outdo either of them, but still the best N.L. second baseman in his career.

Also, of the T206 shortstops, I rate Dahlen third behind only Wagner and Davis.

+1 on Sheckard big time....

Dale Murphy was my favorite player growing up, but sadly his career took too much of a nose dive due to injuries to be a HOF'er. Hall of very good yes, but doesn't measure up to the HOF standard.

I don't like this argument. What constitutes an era? If we just look at who the top 3 at any given position are without comparing them to the rest of history at said position we are just going to weaken the HOF more than it is already.

Was the player in the top 10-15 all time at their position?

If not were they in the top 10 in the game at any position during their career?

Does that players stats paint a picture of an all time great? Or just a good player who played a position that had poor depth league wide at the time?

Please end this thread....3 months is long enough....

Some of the players you say no to I think pass your litmus test.

Well I'm talking about the T206 era and T206 players.

I'm really puzzled that people are against Sheckard. He was better at his position than Kling was at his. I honestly think Sheckard would be a far better choice than most players listed in here.

Sheckard is very underrated. For me he would go into the Hall Of Very Good, but he should at least be in the conversation regarding the Hall Of Fame. Sherry Magee, however, should be close to a no brainer for the HOF.

Tom C

I agree with all you say. Sheckard isn't an injustice if an omission, but I could live with his induction.

Magee? He stands the test of time. How is he not in yet? Why do we have to wait until 2020, at least?

How Magee and Bad Bill are not in when both are easily qualified is puzzling to me.

Edit: Look how long it took to induct George Davis, arguably a top five shortstop of all time! The voters don't always get it right.

Some others not mentioned that I completley forgot about:

Cy Seymour ??? .303 average, over 1,700 hits, and 61-56 pitching recrod
Ginger Beaumont ??? .311 average, over 1,700 hits, led the league in 1902 with .357 average
Jesse Tannehill ??? 197-111
Fred Tenney ??? 2231 hits, .294 lifetime average.

Magee I don't understand. He is the same as Wheat and Kelley. He should be in already.

Dahlen wasn't the defensive player that Wallace or Tinker were. Not being outstanding, just very good, both offensively and defensively doesn't necessarily mean you are a hofer. Davis was outstanding defensively. Why he didn't make it earlier makes no sense to me.

I'm busy at work, so I'll respond in depth later, but don't let the fielding percentage fool you. Dahlen was a great defender.

Sorry, I disagree. Wagner & Davis .940. Tinker and Wallace .938. Dahlen .927. I don't put too much weight on fielding percentage, but that is too big a gap. He was marginally better getting to balls based on assists, but why? Did his pitchers throw more ground balls? We just don't know. Over a 162 game average he fielded about 3 more balls than Davis, 11 more than Wallace and 30 more than Tinker. Those really aren't enough to make up for extra errors he made.

Jaws ranks Dahlen as the 10th best shortstop in history, behind only Wagner, A-Rod, Ripken, G. Davis, Yount, Vaughan, Banks, O. Smith and Appling.

He is ahead of:

Alan Trammell
Derek Jeter
Barry Larkin
Bobby Wallace
Lou Boudreau
Joe Cronin
Pee Wee Reese
Joe Sewell
Luis Aparicio
Joe Tinker
Dave Bancroft
Travis Jackson
Phil Rizzuto
Rabbit Maranville

Tom C

He hates WAR and Jaws. Even without them, you could still argue in favor of Dahlen's defense.