Phil- I expect most/all QBs would object to anything the league does or did to limit their ability to mess around with balls, and though Tom Brady may have lead this previous charge, I doubt he's an exception. I do feel like the league, being super reactive these days, is gauging how to act based on the media response. If this doesn't blow over, during the off season I expect them to change the way game balls are handled, and in turn expect QBs to object (however objecting in a way that won't make it look like they over doctor their game balls).

I think it's also unfair to make the conclusions about what Brady "did" and what Rodgers "does not do". I earlier said I think Brady probably did something, but did so knowing no one really cares... I'm actually now starting to consider things in line with what Steve B said. The Ball is inflated at 70+ degrees, then spends 2 hours outside at 40, it will lose some pressure. Brady likes the ball at 12.5, while Luck apparently likes it at 13.5.. so if Brady's ball deflates at all, he's technically in violation of the rule, while Luck has a 1 psi cushion. I hear the claims the Pats balls were 2 psi low were also not confirmed, but media types are reporting it as fact (love modern journalistic integrity). I also just heard there are ways to treat a ball prior to the game that will create higher pressures for a short period (while being measured), but will then drop later. If truly possible, would doing this be a rules violation, or is it just getting as close to the edge as possible? Doubt there's anything in the rules that cover this.. and it seems just about everything in the NFL will take things as close to the edge as possible- see Seahawks DB play, or any D lineman line up as close to offside as possible.

Scott- I take what a lot of people (QBs, coaches, talking heads) may or may not be saying with a grain of salt. Seeing how this has blown up, no one wants to be seen on the bad side of it... and a lot of media types may just be instigating for self serving purposes. If this was truly big deal to the league/refs/rules (before the press blew this story up), why did the refs simply fill the balls back up and play the 2nd half??? Apparently, they didn't contact anyone, league, coaches, about the under inflated balls, they just filled them back up, why? Because no one cared about this rule... but media types got hold of it and made it a big deal. I think most anyone who played the pro game, off record and without being influenced by this current story, would not think this was a really big deal.

Some media outlet, or the league, or the Pats need to take some footballs inflated to 12.5 psi, put them in a fridge for 2 hours+, then measure drop in pressure. I would love if there was a noticeable drop, or if there is any other simple/logical explanation and then maybe everyone would just shut up!!!:cool: Regardless, of ball psi, I'd be nearly certain to say Peyton Manning and Ben Roethlisberger wearing sticky gloves on their throwing hands has a far greater effect on grip than air pressure (as would major college teams using totally different balls).

I'll never be convinced this is a real big deal... but the media has definitely made it a perceived big deal.

ADDING: just read a little Peter King snippet saying a 1-2 psi difference was just about imperceptible, and even at 10 psi the football still felt hard (makes me wonder what psi on those semi soft game balls we used in HS was??) Admittedly I'm annoyed at myself for getting sucked in, and don't like Peter King, but glad he wrote this... and think if tested, the loudest of media blowhards would probably fail miserably trying to identify the under inflated balls in a batch of good ones.

I think he was smoking some solid logic

Inflated in a sauna? :rolleyes:

Ok, I'll bite. Let's say they were inflated in a sauna. Why wouldn't the ball boy (or whoever inflated them) just come out and say so? As you state, it would probably be within the rules, so why wouldn't they just fess up instead of having all this doubt and suspicion cast on Tom Brady?

Your Patriots are cheaters. Pull your head out of the sand and just admit it. They will be fined and lose a first round draft pick at a minimum, but I hope it's a lot more harsh than that.

The sauna theory is 'solid logic'?

If the balls were in the sauna only for a short amount of time (just the time it would have taken to inflate them), then that's not long enough for the hot temperature to really effect the PSI. If they were in the sauna for an extended amount of time, they would be wet from the steam and the refs would have questioned a wet football (a wet football doesn't dry out quickly).

You Cheatriots fans are really grasping for straws at this point. I don't blame you though. I'm sure it's a hard fact to swallow that the team you grew up loving to root for has to cheat to get a competitive advantage.

I'm not a Pats fan and definitely didn't grow up loving and rooting for them, when I had a multiple SB championship team in my own backyard. I also do not think the "sauna" example was to be taken literally. However let's say for example you could fill a ball with heated air. Seems this could increase/inflate air pressure until the air cooled and would guess it's not be specifically against the rules. In today's presser, Bellichek said the players do something during the prep process which increases pressure by about 1 psi, which is at 12.5 when given to the refs. Whether this is due to heat generated through rubbing, scraping... I've even heard rumor hitting it with a hammer will increase pressure, I guess assuming the flexing bladder will generate heat... if true, could possibly explain why the ball's air pressure was lower by half time on a cold day. I doubt any of this is specifically against the rules.

If the refs did their job, they checked the balls out at 12.5 psi, and the Pats didn't get the balls back until reaching the field. If they let air out after that point, though easy to do, I'd expect a camera to have caught it. We'll see, but my guess is there will be no conclusive video evidence. My first reaction was to assume the Pats did something. I just didn't care because I think the league/refs don't truly care, as they allow teams to work their game balls (refs just topped the balls off at half, didn't do anything otherwise!). After digging into it a little deeper, I am now in the camp that thinks maybe the Pats really didn't do anything specifically to take air out. I hope that is the case and I hope this story just dies out. It's overblown, overplayed, tired, and reeks of a witch hunt. Though it seems it would disappoint a lot of people if the Pats don't get theirs. That said, if they do get busted, I won't lose any sleep over it... and I still consider Tom Brady one of the greatest (maybe top) QBs ever.

Take off your tin foil hat.

At least there's a bit of reality in your post . THE NFL Has Caught THE Patriots cheating again and they have leaked the story to gauge public reaction before they decide what to do. They don't want another Ray Rice black eye where they try to sweep this under the rug.

The nfl already did that once during Spygate where they destroyed the evidence without making it public. The bottom line is that the Patriots season will be tainted because of this and Brady and Belichick's legacy will be that of cheating.

Your conspiracy theory is ridiculous. It doesn't account for the one Pat ball and 12 Colts balls that were not underinflated. How can the Pats have 11 balls be 2 psi under and the other 13 balls not? How can this have never been an issue in below zero games, but is in a 50 degree game? All the junk science can't explain this away. The laws of science apply uniformly. The Pats don't have magic balls that perform differently than the other 31 nfl teams.

Nothing, now get back to class before you flunk out.:D

I agree with all of this except the QBs' reaction. Not even one ex-QB tried using 'Steve B' logic. The talk shows LOVE having opposing views from their talking heads, yet when given the opportunity, the quarterbacks didn't once take Brady's side.

Also, I was believing Brady during his press conference when he kept saying that he couldn't tell the difference during the game - that he never gave it a second thought. He should also have said that yes, he asks for 12.5, but no, he doubts he could really tell the difference, that it should be intuitive to anyone that lower pressure balls 'should' be easier to throw, so he goes for the bottom. Why the heck didn't he just say something like that?

Bingo!

I don't love or hate either team, but this ball deflating incident is the stupidest thing I've heard in a long time. I get that it's breaking the rules...so fine them, take a draft pick away and move on...it's that easy. I don't care if Belichick or Brady had anything to do with it or not, the Pats broke the rules one way or another, so lay the hammer down and get it over with.

Even if it's a form or cheating, it's not very relevant and the guys here that are chomping at the bit to have the Patriot's heads are sad. It would be different if the haters plainly stated their case and took a side, but it just seems weak to call them names and such.

That was pretty much your same sentiment about shilling in the Probstein thread. For some of us, any form of cheating is very relevant. But if it makes you feel better to justify it, so be it.

Cheatriots At It Again....
 

Not the same at all, but if you want to use it that way, knock yourself out.

So every sin is the same and should be treated the same? No difference?


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In severity? No. In consequence? Yes.

Romans 6:23

Really want to continue this coversation?

No, because you are obviously going off the deep end on the matter.

Reread my original post...punish and move on...as should you


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Sounds good, but you can't - that would require Belichek or Brady to admit they did something wrong, and they aren't doing that. So the media circus, or whatever you want to call it, is going to continue. Then when (or if) they are caught in a lie, regardless of how trivial this entire thing should be viewed (in your opinion), it's going to be an even bigger deal than if they had told the truth.

But maybe you all are right and we'll eventually find out that it was mother nature picking on the Patriot balls.

I'm sure this is getting blown up because it's the patriots and I get that....they've messed up before and it should be a bigger deal. My biggest issue is the haters that post their hatred...it's like they've been waiting for something to happen so they can excitedly jump out of their seats and point a finger at them. Believe me, they're getting punished and I can't see it being a light punishment. Robert Kraft should be embarrassed and hopefully this will be the last cheating scandal we hear from the pats.


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This "hater" stuff sounds like crying. As I said before, you guys love yourselves a lot more than others hate you - I don't see the Patriots as important or special at all. If you didn't get caught cheating so often, no one would notice you any more than any other good team.

This. The Patriots ruined the legacy of their early 2000s teams with Spygate. Most of us had moved on. If it wasn't for Pats fans constantly trying to minimize Spygate, this issue would have died. Now the Pats are caught cheating again. It leaves us to wonder what other rules they have been breaking for the last 15 years?

This should have been the team to redeem Belichick and Brady. However, they have shown that they can't keep their noses clean. They will forever be associated with cheating alone.

Other teams have been as successful or more so. 60s Pack, 70s Steelers, 80s 49ers and 90's Cowboys. None of those teams received the negative reaction of the Pats. It's the cheating, not the winning. The Pats success is nothing we haven't seen before. It is the utter disregard for fair play.

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It's not my "conspiracy theory", just some things I've heard which I felt deserved as much consideration as the assertions being made by the lynch mob here. I think it's ridiculous for people to form conclusions without really knowing any of the facts.

11 balls being 2 psi low is not confirmed! It came from an unidentified source and was reported by Craig Mortensen. Call me crazy, but I don't consider ESPN to be a beacon of integrity, or reporting accuracy. Back in 2007, while my wife was working for a firm that was privy to the Mitchell report, grand jury testimony, info from interviews they'd conducted, etc., an ESPN reporter was offering six figures to anyone who'd leak the player lists to him. A lot of these guys are total weasels, yet it seems the public is happy to take cues from them on how to judge others' integrity.

Because nobody cared! Refs, players, fans NOBODY CARED!!! Do you think they really measure and keep measuring to make sure it's between 12.5-13.5?? I'd guess balls in sub zero games are probably often outside the stated league limits, especially if a QB wants his at 12.5 to start with (:eek:OMG, you mean rules are being broken, rules are being broken!!:eek: eject, eject!!:eek:).

I highly doubt most, if any of those shouting loudest could tell a 1-2 psi difference by holding a football. I also doubt most were aware of any of these rules (I wasn't because they never come up), and not aware of the freedom and flexibility football players (and their coaches) have had from age 8 all the way up to the NFL in choosing prepping their game balls and other equipment. Yet people are jumping up and down, going nuts about this story like Tom Brady killed someone, or punched his wife, or beat his kid?? I'll say for the upteenth time, balls used up until the NFL are not uniform and vary based on manufacturer and style. This is what QBs have been used to their whole lives, and to an extent this continues in the NFL, and it's been accepted for years. I can't cut a guys head off if he's always been allowed to do whatever he's done.

Take cleats for example. 0.5" is the max length at amateur levels, yet I know we'd all used 0.75" when it was raining and muddy. I know our opponents did so as well. The refs never checked and I don't think anyone felt they were cheating, because either side could do it, and the refs didn't care to enforce it. For argument sake, what if news breaks tomorrow that Ezekiel Elliot and Ohio State used 0.75" cleats in the Championship game. Maybe the ambitious reporter "breaking" this story goes out of his way to claim it gave them an unfair footing advantage. Let's then say the public, most of whom don't know players often use 0.75" cleats, jump on the Twitter bandwagon and start yelling "cheater! cheater!". I mean, Ohio State and separately Urban Meyer have had some pretty sketchy moments in their past, so they must be breaking rules, right?!?! Oregon, and other teams' players don't come out to admit they used longer cleats too, because they don't want to also be accused of cheating.. and so on.

Scott- it does surprise me a bit if truly no other QBs are coming out defending Brady. This said, I guess most just don't want to touch this with a 10 foot pole. They all saw how quickly he's been judged, so why risk the same scrutiny? I also think pro athletes are not immune to jealousy (see Terry Bradshaw late '80's when Montana was breaking his SB records, see Dolphins popping champagne when undefeated teams lose, see MLB players always voting Jeter most overrated player), and so some are probably just taking satisfaction seeing Brady squirm.

I don't find other QBs'/Teams' silence to be damning, nor do I consider the Pats team history to be damning either. Granted, Spygate was really bad, and IMO the Pats probably deserved harsher punishment (coach suspension like Payton got).. and sure, Spygate can influence your thinking, but to make the assertion- "they did that so they must have done this, and their legacy is all fake" is a stretch. The Pats are not unique in their desire to gain any edge possible. I think most NFL head coaches, chief execs possess traits that may be off-putting in the normal world (control freaks, selfish, neglectful of family/friends, etc) yet are essential to survice in the NFL. My beloved Niners, who were mentioned as being one of the great teams that didn't generate controversy like the Pats, have done their fair share of shady stuff. Eddie D, loved for his willingness to do anything for his players, was suspected to have paid players under the table shortly after the league instituted the salary cap. Seems that would be an unfair advantage to me. He was also accused of using dead people as voters while trying to pass a new stadium/mall at Candlestick Point, and eventually run from the league for involvement in a river boat casino/gambling license scandal.

Most the teams we root for have baggage. Anyone a college football fan here???? Maybe Auburn? Auburn who's alums arranged for Cecil Newton to go aboard river casinos, play machines at precise times and walk out with bags of cash? Auburn and Cam still have their trophies, and the school and SEC conference profited greatly, so I guess it's all OK, eh? The NO Saints were paying players to "attack the head" of Frank Gore and Alex Smith. Yet, the Pats have some under inflated footballs, and this is what people are clinging onto? Craziness IMO

As Mike C says, if they find evidence they're guilty of an infraction, punish them and move on. But in the grand scheme of things... and of football related violations on the whole.. this one is not that big a deal.

Wow, I've been busy writing my own novel, so didn't see yours until after.

Read that same column... my guess is no one will ever know what the other balls were because the refs don't really give a crap, and probably just topped them back up to spec. I doubt they take time to log the pressures.

EXACTLY!! But he sure as hell did a good job creating a story and driving ratings for the foreseeable future, so am sure he'll be commended.

Yes, yes, and yes.. all examples of things teams are willing to do. I'm the first to admit the Niners did some dirty stuff.. and separately, a whole hell of a lot of coke. Fans get such a small portal into the real world of pro football, so when they get little bits and pieces (often without full context) here and there, it looks terrible. However, most involved are pulling similar tricks. Re- Spygate, I had more issue because they were filming walk throughs/practices that were supposed to be closed, right? That said, I never thought they were the only ones doing this. I had also singled the Saints out for their Bountygate.. but bounties have been around forever, and am sure many teams and coaches have done this.

Bounties to hurt players are probably a little more serious than deflated balls... or is it just me that feels this way?

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Fine with me, I'll take your word for it. I didn't follow it really closely at the time, which is precisely the issue I take with irresponsible reporting. Most people don't follow closely, so once something blows up like this, it's irreversible in the court of public opinion. This is beyond wrong. I wish there was a way to hold these reporters and networks more accountable.

I think reputable news agencies are probably generally better at fact checking, etc, but ESPN, and maybe some other networks I won't mention for fear of a firestorm, seem intent only on breaking stories first, then inflating importance of their stories ("the Decision", "---- gate", etc) and in turn increasing web hits, ratings.

You're preaching to the choir. I outed my own team (Niners) in my post.

You conveniently skipped the main point of my response, which is that nobody "hates' the Patriots - No one outside of Boston gives a shlt about them any more than any other team. We are discussing a current 'issue' - that's all. You are making it out as if discussing and giving opinions is not allowed until after the investigation. You're forgetting that you are participating in a DISCUSSION FORUM.

We should start a "sour grapes" thread and let everyone that has true hatred (looking at you Phil) for a team or individual player(s), rip them through and through. Maybe it would make them feel better? Maybe their hatred would expire? Doubtful, but at least their partial thoughts could be outed in a thread that would welcome it.

Well, I think it was David that was looking for the "Patriot apologists" and it seems he got more than that :eek:

Mike, I agree that there do seem to be a lot of sour grapes toward these guys, and I think "haters" has been aptly used here. I don't have much invested in this here.. but think a lot of people (well beyond this board) want to see them fail by any/all means, and they smell blood in the water in right now.

Scott, would be nice if this were totally objective, though I don't think it's necessary for something as trivial as sports discussion, and I don't think it has been here. The vehement (not yours) reads loud and clear to me, and I think plenty of people outside Boston feel some passion toward the Pats (mostly bad). This is similar to what people felt about the Yanks, the Bulls, the Lakers, the Niners, etc.. and if your Hawks win another, will be more commonly felt toward them. Seems pretty natural in sports.

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This is exactly what I'm talking about, delusional Patriots fan. You really don't understand the difference between watching signs and being able to film them, having a permanent record which you can used to figure out all their defenses? You can claim that it was dominant defense, but when you know what the other team is doing it is a huge advantage, it is cheating and is a major reason why the Pats won those 3 SBs. Fact, the Pats are the only SB champion to be sanctioned for cheating. You can try to justify it all you want, but the Pats are cheaters. They were cheating 2001-07 and they are still cheating today.

You complain about us discussing what the nfl has leaked. We can still discuss this and change our opinion if new info comes out. However, your mind is already closed. No matter what the nfl decides, you are going to try to argue away the fact that the Pats are cheaters. 7 years later you are still trying to argue away Spygate

No, not enough time to affect the ball, but the air that gets added would be hot. And cooling would put them around 2 psi lower.

I didn't say I knew that was done, just that an actual scientist had suggested it and it seemed for sure like a loophole the Pats would use if they thought it would give them an edge.

I do think that while the rule would technically allow it, by the spirit of the rule it's quite shady. And I also think there will be fines, maybe a draft pick loss no matter what the NFL finds.

The NFL is one of the oddest businesses I've seen.
Grab your stuff on field? That's a $20K fine.
Sell a framed photo collection prominently including the same crotch grab? Totally ok !

Harass your own teammate so he leaves the team and nearly quits altogether? And have management know all about it? One guy gets suspended for the rest of the year. Nothing for the others or for management.

Film from the wrong spot? That's a half million and a draft pick.

Simply bizarre.

Steve B

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Interesting article. I hope it's OK for me to post a link. Sorry if it's not OK to do.

http://www.slate.com/articles/sports...f_fumbles.html

I would add 'paranoid' and 'entitled' to "delusional patriots fans."

Come on, Scott...have you not read this thread lately? I'm not a Patriots fan, but the few on here have added some good info...you should read it instead of popping in and stirring the pot.

The difference is what other teams were doing was allowed by the rules. That wasn't good enough for the Pats, they had to break the rules. It gave them an unfair advantage. If it wasn't a major reason they won 3 SBs, how come they have won ZERO since then?

It wasn't like they were blowing teams out, it was 3 close wins, two on last second fgs, Since then, they are losing those close games (to the Giants). I'd say having the other team's signals was a major reason they won.

You can turn a blind eye to the Pats cheating. Just don't expect the rest of us to ignore it.

Look in the mirror and then say that again without blushing.

Taping the practices and signals was and I believe is standard practice. That there's a rule stating where this taping can be done pretty much confirms that. Prior to the pats taping from the wrong place the Jets had someone taping from the wrong place and the Pats didn't go to the league, just asked him to leave.

Frankly, if taping practices and signals is as common as it is, and a head coach is too dumb to change those signals the team is probably going to have some problems anyway.


Hey, I get it.
The Pats used to be truly horrible in just about every way.
A coach whose main highlight was getting electrocuted during his introductory press conference.
Players harassing a female member of the press.
And generally just being a bad football team.

And as sports fans do, I looked anywhere else for the reason. The refs were against us, the rules were unfair, anything except the organization was just bad from the top down. Sure, they had some good players. Plunkett was pretty good, and was better after he left. Hmmmmm .......must be something odd going on there.....(Like the Raiders having a clue)


I'm looking forward to the superbowl, and the matchup between the most successful Pats head coach and the second most successful Pats head coach.

You mad bro? :D

Steve B

Breaking news from Jay Glazer:

http://m.tmi.me/1eXHpm

This is what I thought would happen from the beginning. Some no name, low level employee would get blamed and fired for this. The Patriots (Tom Brady) will of course claim that they never ever ever ever ever ever told him to reduce the air pressure in the balls, he just did it on his own.

Of course :D

Maybe it's time to start a parallel Scooter Libby thread to lend some perspective.

Like Mike said, there's been some good stuff said, examples given, but seems the posse doesn't seem interested. What my Niners allegedly did by paying players under the table would be far far more severe than playing with lower pressure game balls. What any number of teams, that for whatever reason never had to face this type of scrutiny is more severe than deflated game balls.

Dean- re fumbles, I've seen reference to those stats. It's interesting, and I'd be curious to check out individual player stats to see how their fumble rates increased or decreased in NE (but trying to get work done!!). I did do a quick scan of Legarrette Blount's stats, and looked like he fumbled at a similar rate in NE as TB. I do think strong coaching emphasis on protecting the ball (look at Tiki Barber's career) and quickly benching fumble prone players can go a long way toward better offensive turnover numbers. I also consider a lot of other things as the truest factors in not fumbling-- being strong especially hand strength, protecting the ball (4 points of contact), being able to safely transfer ball hands, covering up with 2 hands when needed, wearing sticky gloves, etc. Just like some teams were ahead of the curve teaching stripping techniques (relatively recently, especially in secondary), I'd guess the Pats position coaches may be very good at teaching ball security techniques. Just checked, they did not lead the league in fewest fumbles this year, and were tied with 3 other teams for 2nd.

I vow I am not a Pats fan (and not blushing) and I was very happy when the Niners beat them in NE on MNF last season. This whole debacle has definitely given me a stronger rooting interest in the SB though.

Agreed. I once took the fall for a multi-million dollar deal that failed, even though I had nothing to do with it - but I was a paramecium and even the people on the other side of the deal understood what was happening. I even had management explain the situation to me beforehand, and we all agreed (me included) that it was best that we put my name on it as opposed to blaming the guilty and losing the deal.

I got a raise and a promotion for doing so. This is all part of business 101. The equipment manager will get a lobster dinner and a huge pile of cash. The Pats are grateful, but the behavior on all sides was expected. Even the NFL will be happy with such an outcome - it was the only way this could end, so I don't doubt it in the least.

Scott...I'm a man, I don't blush


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I echo Ian in that this has been a great discussion, with only minor flaming :)

I hope it all is swept under the rug prior to Superbowl Sunday, then the Patriots and the NFL can bring in 'The Wolf' after a week or so.

Mike - I am proud of you that you are keeping tabs on this via your cell phone. It means you have a life. Me, on the other hand...

Lol...damnit, Scott. You're trying your hardest to get to me, but it will not work!!!


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This makes no sense. The only one mad is Tom Brady for losing to the Seahawks and then running away like a little girl instead of shaking Richard Sherman's hand.

I guarantee, nothing would make a player look like a bigger chump than would accepting Richard Sherman's mock conciliatory hand shakes. Ask Michael Crabtree last year. I think in both cases those guys did well to just walk away, rather than to let it escalate which is all Sherman wants. I give it up to Sherman though, he's an amazing talent and a champion talker and head shrinker. He's to the NFL what Gary Payton was to basketball.

I expect to see LeGarrette Blount and some pulling guard running his way quite a bit on Sunday. Also, so much of what NE does passing, they do from the inside out (backs, TEs and the slots), so will be interesting to see how much a factor Sherman will be. The one I can't wait to see is Kam Chanceller vs Gronk, one of Sunday's more compelling potential matchups.

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I was telling a buddy he took a piss then either washed his hands, or "stink palmed" the Colts' game balls... if you've seen Mallrats, you know what I'm talking about.

Love the use of the term, "person of interest" btw, like this is some super high level investigation into terrorism or espionage. "Perp" would have been great too.

Brady started it by talking trash to Sherman. When you start something and the other guy beats you, be a man and admit you are wrong. You don't run away like a little girl. That is pathetic. I understand why Pats fans don't have a problem with that, they are still in denial about Spygate.

Crabtree didn't talk trash to Sherman before that game. It was Sherman who initiated it. In that situation you just walk away. Those two situations aren't remotely comparable.

Unfair Competitive Advantage
 

I don't go too crazy over sports analytics, but I thought this was pretty damning. If you don't really think that deflated balls (no laughing please) gives you much of an advantage, you should check this out. It's not all about Brady either.

Apologies if this was already posted in the thread or you don't like to read graphs.

http://www.sharpfootballanalysis.com...-proof-in-2007

Sherman never stops talking - his soundbytes aired the other night and was hilarious. He comes after guys unprovoked. Brady new that but still mouthed off. That's fine, but with Sherman you better back it up or be prepared to quietly take the backlash, which is what Brady wisely did.

At least people recognized the quote...........

Superbowl Sunday I might just have to have a beer from the "fire freddy" Mug I bought years ago. (Lets see who gets that one)

Steve B

My favorite 'Sherman mouthing off' moment is when he mouthed off to gigantic Trent Williams and was then punched in the face. Sherman barely moved and started laughing. I'm thinking if Brady punched him it would have turned out differently.

Found it: Williams punches Richard Sherman

My understanding is that he didn't actually say "You mad bro?" Someone tweeted the infamous pic of him and Brady, along with that quote, and Sherman then adapted it.

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Now they are saying an equipment guy vanished into a rest room with the game footballs. Right, the Pats found someone to fall on the sword.
And if you believe an equipment guy would deflate footballs without orders from the coach, then I have a deed to the Bunker Hill Monument to sell to you.

I really love the hypocritical Pat fans. Please explain how the colts balls and Patriots backp balls were fine? Pat fans can never admit when they get caught cheating, they just make excuses after excuses. Yet if another team gets caught cheating, pat fans will be the first to boo and scream cheater at them. I'm sure you guys think Aaron Hernandez is innocent and probably want him back.

The cheaters will be punished after the super bowl with a fine and a draft pick taking away. Hopefully the Pats don't win because than the Super Bowl is tainted and it just shows kids that cheating is fine and you can make excuses to get away with it.

Questioning the Patriots' possible rules violation does not make one an "anti-Patriot", any more than you disagreeing with my comments makes you an "anti-runscott".

Too bad that such a great and historic city, one of the best cities in America, has this bunch of cheaters representing them.

Take that, patriot fans!! ;)


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As someone else alluded to, I think Belichick already explained how the Patriots skirt (and probably have skirted) the rule for many years, maybe as far back as when they were first allowed to break in their own footballs in 2007. They found a way to artificially increase the PSI by a pound or so (their mysterious "rubbing" process), do this immediately before they are tested, and then just let them settle in at 11.5 or so, with a nice soft ball to throw, catch, and hang on to. Love them or hate them, the Patriots don't miss a trick, and they can say that they followed the letter of the law (if not the spirit) - their balls measured out at 12.5 PSI when they were examined before the game.

The prep accounts for 1 PSI less, the weather for the other. Net result will probably be the NFL taking away the team's ability to break in the ball, or teams submitting the balls two or three hours before testing to prevent this.

Cheating? Not really. Fair play? Not really, either.

The article fails to mention how the Colts balls didn't lose pressure. What's your theory on that?

Yeah so bizarre that only the Patriots footballs lost pressure. And when they were refilled at halftime, they didn't lose pressure the rest of the game.

My theory is that it was 20-30 degrees colder on the Pats side of the field than it was on the Colts side of the field. :D

Hey, that's no more ridiculous than some of these other loony theories. :cool:

Based on the fact that they scored nearly twice as many points in the second half with the right balls I would say they may have handicapped themselves to start with. ;)

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No. To help feed your paranoia, since "we" all hate the Patriots for some reason known only to Patriot fans, we don't know anything about any other NFL team's footballs, because the Patriots are the only ones being picked on. It's a conspiracy where all other NFL team's questionable actions are ignored or coverd over (conspiracy). Remember - everyone hates the Patriots.

Quit being a hater, Scott ;) I liked you a lot more when you were just filled with hate!


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...I can hardly wait for #14.

I was wondering when this statement would be posted----the excuses, in case Seattle loses, are starting!

Anyone care to suggest how the Patriots will "cheat" their way thru, in case they win???:D

The conclusions in that article are laughable. One outlier year and the rest are all right in line with the pre-2007 years. Big deal.

Andrew Luck supposedly likes them at the upper limit, like Rodgers. Pretty sure I brought this up earlier in the discussion, but it seems to have been ignored.

I think it's also crazy that MIT and Harvard professors are being ignored. Seems safe to assume these guys are smarter than anyone posting in this thread. Even if they were to be Pats fans, I highly doubt anyone in their positions, achieved through years of incredibly hard work and merit, would risk their scientific reputations by fudging calcs. That non Boston area (Pittsburgh) firm's experiment showed an average 1.8 psi shift. That coupled with the possibility the Pats may have figured out a way to temporarily increase ball pressure while the refs measure them seems enough to create doubt in my mind. I'd also challenge anyone here to take air out of 11 balls in 80 seconds.. This includes taking them out and putting them back in the bag.. And I've allotted 10 sec to open and close the door. "on your mark, set, go!"

That said, I guess the "person of interest's" bathroom run, and a team's bad reputation trump science and are seen as damning evidence. Scary, and I really hope I never, for whatever reason find myself in the media/public crosshairs.. Everyone should watch "Gone Girl" as an example of how little people need to form firm, unbreakable opinions.

Back to the rule and enforcement, I have watched video of refs topping balls off. At one point an official says, "this one's within a psi, it's good". If they're willing to let a pound go, maybe the Colts balls, starting at 13.5, are under the limit at 11.5-12 psi by half, but the refs are ok with it. Maybe they started 0.5-1 pound high, and the refs were ok with that? The pressures of these 11 balls (and Colts' 12) has NEVER been publicly confirmed! I doubt they even know, since they apparently just topped them up. One of my first points that still stands, if the refs and the league didn't care to strictly enforce this rule, why should we?? and if the Pats did cheat, punish them and move on.

At least there's still a game to be played, and I know I'm gonna enjoy it.. Hopefully at least some of the others here will as well.:confused:

... and to single out Tom Brady (with Manning) as pushing for the 2007 rule change is ridiculous. Every QB in the league would push for this, but Brady happened to have the star power to get it done.

I can't offer proof of a prior rules change, but I also highly doubt that home teams had ALWAYS supplied the game balls prior to 2007. I'd guess individual teams have supplied their own balls for the bulk of NFL and football history (they do at all other levels). I'd guess this freedom may have been restricted around the same time the "K" ball came into effect... but may be wrong.

Adding-- just read Brad Johnson bribed someone $7500 to break in the balls prior to the SB in 2003. Classic. Either Bucs fans needs to step up to defend their tainted title.. or we can all just agree to not care.

Yeah, and we all know science has never been proven wrong :rolleyes:

Ummm....junk science???

They cheated to get to the game. They may not have needed to cheat to beat the Colts, but what about the Ravens? How many regular season games did they win by cheating? Anything they accomplish will be tainted.

As far as the Harvard or MIT professors, they can be ignored because they haven't shown anything. They can give a theoretical explanation, but have they done actual research? They can't explain why the 12th ball didn't deflate. They can't explain why the Colts balls didn't deflate. Even if they were at 13.5, by the professors theory, they would still have been below 12.5 if effected like the 11 Pats balls. They can't explain why none of the other teams have this problem, even teams in colder climates than NE. They can't explain how the Pats balls deflated in the first Colts game played indoors in a controlled climate. Their theories are bs.

Hernandez was gone before charges were officially filed. He's not coming back even if he somehow gets off which is unlikely. I believe he should be doing some serious time, 20+.

Every team works around a few rules here and there.

The taping thing? Yeah, they did it, they were just dumb enough to do it after the memo was sent about not doing it from the wrong area. And they were punished - Maybe more for ignoring the memo than the actual act. Even dumber, I doubt it gave them any advantage. Who uses signals when there's radios?

If the NFL decides they cheated here, and they probably will, then there will be more fines, and as you say, a draft pick (Maybe two if Goodell is having a bad day) And If they are found to have violated the rules the fines etc. will be appropriate.

Jumping to conclusions without any facts besides what comes out in the press and which changes daily? - Not sure how facts can change so much, but what's reported as fact does.
Well, that's just part of being a sports fan I guess.

Being a Pats fan is kinda fun the last few years. Gives us a little bit of what it must feel like to be a Yankees fan. :D

Steve B

You did, and Rodgers is lucky his balls didn't magically super-inflate during the Seahawks loss, although he seemed fairly accurate at the end.

I think professors and scientists want their moment in the spotlight as much as anyone. And I'm certain there are a few like this guy, who are dying to give their opinions.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/71/Frink.png

I think you're very selective in what you read. Did you not see the comment about refs allowing balls within 1 psi of the NFL limit. This has not been a "problem" before because NO ONE EVER CARED!! I'm sure plenty of footballs have been used at under 12.5 psi, but no one ever complained. Like said before, it's not like refs, or anyone is checking pressure of the game balls in real time