T206-13
 

Here's my contribution to this thread : Carton & T206-13 card

T206-13
 

Whoops... Here's another one more rare than Doyle...

Hi Jeremy
 

Thanks for posting the COUPON Cigarettes carton.

I think that carton is circa 1914....and, maybe associated with T213-2 (or T213-3) cards.

The carton that I saw years ago was very similar to yours; however the brand name was labelled " COUPON " ....which implies circa 1910.
And, I don't recall the Liggett & Myers lettering.


Take care, good buddy.


TED Z
.

Thanks Ted - . I would love to see the "Coupon" carton that you mentioned. In reading your reply, I am not sure what differentiates my carton and the one one you are talking about... (I have no real opinion either way and certainly not sure of the time frame of this Carton I own, but know its pretty old) Perhaps, the 1910 Carton says... "Coupon Mild" and mine says Coupon Cigarettes??

Jeremy
 

I think the tell-tale clue here is the Liggett & Myers label.

I think that L & M manufactured the COUPON brand after ATC's divestiture (circa 1911- 1912).

The 1910 COUPON was strictly an ATC brand.

I will search for a pix of the " COUPON " Cigarettes carton.


TED Z
.

Jeremy............
 

beauty of an Ellam:eek:

lmk if you ever want to trade:D

Ted - That makes some sense. I will take this to email with you, so this thread doesn't get too sidetracked... Is Liggett & Myers on the reverse of any other brands besides 1914 Victory tobacco cards ?

Jeremy
 

The break-up of the American Tobacco Co. (May 1911) resulted in the re-assignment of the following brands............


Liggett & Myers was given these cigarette brands:

Piedmont
Fatima
American Beauty
Home Run
Imperiales
Coupon
King Bee
Fatima


P. Lorillard was given these cigarette brands:

Helmar
Egyptian Deities
Turkish Trophies
Murad
Mogul
and,
all straight Turkish brands


American Tobacco Co. retained these cigarette brands:

Pall Mall (its expensive all-Turkish brand, named for a fashionable London street)
Sweet Caporal
Hassan
Mecca



TED Z
.

Ted
 

You need to write a book! Not joking a bit. Your knowledge of the t206 set is amazing.

Show your T206 card(s) that are more scarce than the JOE DOYLE NAT'L card
 

.................................................. 1-of-8 .................................................. .................................. 1-of-2
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...n4versions.jpg
.http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...n4versions.jpg


T-Rex TED
.

Lungren.........
 

Scrap off the chain:eek:

For Ted's benefit, I'll translate:

"That Lundgren scrap is really, really nice!!" :D

I'm just a guy that relates to all generations! ;)

Hi Tony
 

I really appreciate the compliment.

I think I have shared most of my T206 knowledge with everyone on this forum since April 2005.

Should I go back 10 years and review all my posts regarding T206's in order to compile a book......perhaps so.

However, I enjoy the free association of thought that we all enjoy on Net54 every day; and, I find that more meaningful.


Take care,

TED Z
.

Thanks Steve-O
 

:)

Lundgren is FreakN insane:eek:

Johnny
 

I dig you dude :)


T-Rex TED
.

One of a kind DRUM......
 

.........30 years ago, I acquired my first T206 DRUM card from Barry Sloate.....this Danny Moeller card.

Then, 7 years ago I helped Barry Arnold with his T206 backs sub-set when I sent him this unique T206.

I don't know of another Moeller/DRUM card. Checking out the pop reports of PSA and SGC, you will find
only this one (SGC A).

If anyone on this forum knows of another one, please chime in.



http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...oellerdrum.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...oellerdrum.jpg



TED Z
.

what'd u pay for it Ted????

Pete
 

Do you really want to know ?


TED Z
.

It makes you wonder exactly how many Drum cards were distributed? Don't you wish someone would stumble across some sort of ATC receipt/printing order? Even for just one back type, it would be incredible to know XXX many cards were produced and now 100+ years later, XXX many cards remain...

$5?

$5.01


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Hey Pete
 

I can never take you serious :)


Anyhow, here is the story....the entire story. By circa 1985, I had acquired 12 of the T206 backs for my T-brand sub-set. I figured the DRUM was to be
the toughest of the basic 17 brands that I was looking for to complete this run.

Barry Sloate helped me with several tough backs; and, found this Moeller card. DRUM cards (if you could find them) back then were selling for $200 to
$400 (Vg to Ex cards). Barry offered this card to me for $100.

Summer of '08, Toby Peterson emailed me to offer me a Frank Delehanty DRUM card. I needed this card to complete my first "A--B--C--D" connection.



http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...ntyABCDx50.jpg

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...tyABCDx50b.jpg



Therefore, I called Barry Arnold, since I knew he needed a DRUM card for his T206 back's run. I let him have this Moeller card for $99.



"That's All Folks"


TED Z
.

Ted...I WAS serious!!!!!!! 30 yrs ago? why not only $5????? After I guessed $5 I was thinking maybe u got it in a lot for even less???

I picked up my only drum...now long gone at a silver spring armory show around 1992 for $37. The Solly Hofman that Chris B used to own.

Hey Pete
 

OK, you paid $37 for your Hofman.....of which there are 2 graded, and a possible 3rd exists (as, it's been rumored).

I paid $100 for Moeller.....and, only one exists.

Therefore, if this stuff is a linear factor, since my DRUM is 3 times more rare than your Hofman.....our purchase prices are equivalent.

Anyhow, that's how my engineering mind sees this :)


TED Z
.

Ted is able to remember how much he paid for a card thirty years ago. I can't, although I vaguely remember that Drum because of the missing corner.

One thing I do remember well is buying a modest collection of T206 from a family and finding two Drums in the group. That floored me. But don't ask who the two players were.:o

Do you mean there are only 3 of these known or 3 in YOUR collection?

You have to excuse me I am new at this and just trying to understand the million different intricacies of these T206s

Attachment 176370

Beig....
 

now you guys figured out how to really enjoy them! kudos!;):)

I am more confused than ever. :)

Bieg...........
 

by enjoying the cards and sharing scans and interest with other collectors like us:)

that's the beauty of them...............:D

My wife, whose collection these are from, loves looking at the cards and then reading about each player especially from the book "The Glory Of Their Times" which recounts many stories as told by the actual players themselves.

does your wife have a single sister who likes baseball?

Sorry no. :)

She even loves watching Formula 1 and BBC Top Gear with me, as a matter of fact Top Gear is her favorite show! I am a Gear Head and racing fanatic as much as you guys are fanatical about these cards so I am in heaven! :)

dammit! many of us fancy cars too!

Hi Bieg
 

There were only 3 known......now with your wife's American Beauty (AB) Frank Delehanty the are 4 known. It's quite a rare T206 card with an AB back.

Tell your wife....her Delehanty card is one of the nicest looking T206 AB cards that I have seen. And, I have seen many AB cards.

Also, since she enjoys reading about these T206 guys, tell her that Frank Delehanty in 1903 (only 20 years old) had the sad task of identifying the body
his brother, "Big Ed" Delehanty, who had died mysteriously at Niagara Falls.


Thanks for posting.


TED Z
.

Wow, so what would that make it worth? Does the rarity of this Delehanty make it worth more than her Cobb Red Portrait AB Back in similar condition?

I assume rarity and condition is not the only factor in determining the value.

Thanks for the help guys.

I read a great book about that tragic incident a few years back. I wish I remembered the name of it.


I would guess 500? maybe $600 for Delehanty if it is as nice as it looks in the scans. Cobbie would sell for multiples of that number.

Maybe someone else will chime in with their opinion

edit: looking at it again, it is a beautiful card. my numbers may be low.

But a Cobb Red/ AB in similar condition would bring a couple thousand.

David and Sean....
 

you both are spot on......

the real rarity, as ted will tell you, is some of the AB 460 cards that are "rarer" front back combos....

certain individuals trying to complete a master set may chase the "shorter" printed ones....

Ted z needs just a few to complete, to me, the nearly impossible 460 sub set!:eek:

tell us the ab 460s!!! that where the moola is:D.......not the multi printed(which are tuf to begin with), but the shorter printed ab 460's;)....that's where a few elite collectors here will tell you where the "hidden" gold is;)..........


Delahanty.....$500.00 ebay/ $600.00 Goodwin..... maybe:D

Hey Johnny
 

You're absolutely correct....AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 cards have been under-rated.

Sixty-three of the 75 - AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 cards are very tough to find.

The subjects that I refer to as the Exclusive 12 (460-only Series) are not as difficult to find with AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 backs.


Take care....good friend,

TED Z

__________________________________________________ _____________________________________
LOOKING for these 6 - T206 guys to complete my AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 sub-set (75 cards)

AMES (hands over head)....CAMNITZ (hands over head)....DOYLE (portrait)....McGRAW (portrait-cap)
McQUILLAN (bat)....TINKER (bat off shoulder)
.

Hi Barry
 

Bill Heitman's book "The Monster" (circa 1980) first got me going on T206's. But, you really got me involved in the "nitty-gritty" of the T206 cards by clueing me in,
and providing me some of the tougher front / back combos.

The first one you sold me was this Lundgren / EPDG in 1984 for $ 75. ...................v

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...n4versions.jpg
. http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...n4versions.jpg


Regarding the DRUM card....recall that we made a bet in 1985 that it would take me at least a year to acquire a DRUM. Circa Spring 1985, you surprised me when
you told me you had a DRUM card for me. I got quite a chuckle telling you that you lost our bet....by your own doing.

Those early 1980's were great times in this hobby.


TED Z
.

the 80's
 

I was just taking my 10 year hiatus:D............only for a few years(1985-1995 about)......

college, girls, a band, motorcycles......:).................not a bad hiatus;).........

since then, those things are gone!;)


but returned to the cardboard hard core and never looked back:D

Seems like an opportune time to add to this thread my only AB 460.

David....
 

i think that one might qualify as a toughie in the ab 460...

I was almost complete the sov 460 set, and this was tough in sov 460...

cammy throw is tough:D

That story I do remember Ted. In the end, the bet wasn't really important.:)

Show your T206 card(s) that are more scarce than the JOE DOYLE NAT'L card
 

Only 5 graded of Davy Jones....and, my ungraded card.

Hey, wasn't this guy the lead singer of The Monkees in the 1960's ? :)


http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/t...yjones50xa.jpg.http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/t...jones50xab.jpg


TED Z
.

Let's see some more rare LENOX gems
 

Chase and Chance with LENOX backs are very rare (less than 5 of each).

After a good number of years in Pennsylvania, my blue Chase now has a nice home in Canada.


http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...ChaseLENOX.jpg . http://i1255.photobucket.com/albums/...ps6cc89446.jpg

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...haseLENOXb.jpg . http://i1255.photobucket.com/albums/...ps3d99c1af.jpg



Hey guys

There is still lots of room here for your rare T206 cards, so why not post them.


Thanks,

TED Z
.

Here is another ungraded Jones

Attachment 176751

That is a beautiful tobacco card. Thanks for posting it (as well as thanks to the other members, especially Ted Z., for sharing your cards too)

Thanks to Derek, this is now in my collection.

Ted- do you still own your Chance Lenox?

Hi Mike
 

Sure do.


TED Z
.

Very nice! super dark/bold back. bravo.

Hope you're well, my friend.

I believe these qualify.

PSA Says only 5 with the best being EX5

Attachment 176857

Bieg- Welcome to the board...please be aware, PSA only started organizing the different brand backs in their pop reports about 5-6 years ago, so there's a huge number of cards listed under "Unkown" that are a variety of rare backs. Meaning, you cannot just look under "American Beauty" Elberfeld, Fielding for the complete number of examples...hence, the T206 pop report is very inaccurate.

I assume they are only listing cards that they have graded?

Yes, but my point is that prior to 5-6 (or is it 7-8?) years ago, they did not distinguise them by the different backs. So there are a ton of mixed backs under Unkown. You cannot say they've only ever graded 5 of the above card with authority...it's most likely much more, but just generically listed under Unkown.

Well a fellow can say that the reports show only 3 graded American Beauty cards of a certain white border card, and be accurate as to how many the report indicates have been graded.

I say that while agreeing that some are graded and in slabs that don't indicate what's on the back.

Additionally, some of the slabbed cards have been broken out... some of those remain liberated, some have been regraded.

Point is, it is a not entirely accurate indication...

OK so how are people determining the rarity of the cards in this thread? Are there other sources beyond the PSA population reports?

Many are merely optimistic...this is not an exact science.

Hi Frank
 

Your point is well taken.

The various TPG's pop reports can be misleading. For example, if I see certain popular cards (i.e., Cobb, Matty, etc.) whose graded numbers are in tight clusters, it
implies re-grading, cross-overs, etc.. Therefore, I'm reluctant to count those numbers as representative of unique cards.


Like your's, the greater majority of the cards in my collection are ungraded. And, I know of at least a dozen long time collectors whose collections are in "raw" form.
I have their inputs on their rare T206 front/back combos, which enter into my numbers

Furthermore, I have data from Scot Reader's extensive T206 surveys which provides an additional input for my numbers.


Take care, my friend

TED Z
.

I think the rarity is all relative to the other cards in the set. All we can really go by are the population reports on PSA, SGC, etc...as well as anecdotal evidence from what we have seen board members post.

The truth is that there may be 5 graded examples listed of a particular front back combo, and another 50 ungraded examples stashed away ungraded in the private collections of long time collectors.

The only thing that we can do is compare rarity in comparison to other cards and say that "x is more plentiful than y" in terms of graded copies and that this should also hold true in the entirety of ungraded cards as well.

The only caveat is if a collector happened to be hoarding a particular back and suddenly released them to market. For example, if a collection of 200 Drum backs were suddenly added to the open market, that would change how we view the relative scarcity of particular backs (i.e., Uzit would most likely then surpass Drum as the rarer back).

Hope this helps.

***Edited to add that Pete and Ted were able to express my thoughts in a much less "long winded" version while I was typing!*** :)

Thanks for the clarification guys.

Also keep in mind that collectors are much more likely to get important cards graded (Cobb,etc.,or rare backs). A common may be just as plentiful, but we don't get them graded, so they won't show up in the pop reports.

http://www.psacard.com/pop/t206/Index?byback=1&pf=0

Not sure when they revamped their Pop Report pages, but here's the T206 PSA link above...

Am I missing something, or did they eliminate the "Unknown" back pops in this newer chart? I do not think the numbers add up. Take T206 "total population" graded and see individual back numbers below...big gap! the balance is Unknown, before they started breaking them down by back brand...

Ted,

I just picked up a Rucker AB350 unframed. Am I getting close to more scarce than Doyle? I keep looking. Between you and scarce cards and Johnny and Scrap, that's all I can think of! I'll post a scan when it gets delivered.

Ed

x 3

Attachment 178085

Attachment 178086

Attachment 178087

Show your T206 card(s) that are more scarce than the JOE DOYLE NAT'L card
 

Getting back to T206's........some great cards seen in this thread that are very scarce. However, I'm surprised that no PIEDMONT 460 Factory 42 cards have been posted.

So, here are some......all of these are scarcer than the Doyle.


http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/t...0factory42.jpg.http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/t...0factory42.jpg. .http://i529.photobucket.com/albums/d...dmont46042.jpg


http://i1255.photobucket.com/albums/...psfbe490af.jpg
. .http://i1255.photobucket.com/albums/...psc16b9392.jpg



http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...hamP460x42.jpg.http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...amP460x42b.jpg




TED Z
.

Ted, this one is for you!
Val

Hey Val
 

Great card....thanks for posting your Johnson.

Take care, my friend


TED Z
.

Wow, a Walter Johnson/ Piedmont 42. Great card. :)

A recently added one

Attachment 179176

Attachment 179177

Great cards gentlemen, all of you. I wish I had something to post!

Ted & Sean, Thanks!

Epps, that is a gorgeous Cobb, regardless of the grade!

Val

Excellent Cobb, and a Piedmont 42. :)

Only two of theseAttachment 179321

Show your T206 card(s) that are more scarce than the JOE DOYLE NAT'L card
 

These American Beauty cards of Delahanty and Elberfeld are not that rare; nevertheless, their DRUM's are very rare.


http://i1255.photobucket.com/albums/...psa586832c.jpghttp://i1255.photobucket.com/albums/...ps07e0156e.jpg

http://i1255.photobucket.com/albums/...psd008b32f.jpg



TED Z
.

Only one graded by PSAAttachment 179596

The thread is called: Show your T206 card(s) that are more scarce than the JOE DOYLE NAT'L card

Deleted
 

Double post.