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350 Home Runs after the age of 35 - simply amazing.
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Fast forward 20 years and that type of cheating is OK because now we're really upset about the newest form that it has taken. Cheating is cheating. It has happened since the game began and it continues to this day. Give me a freaking break. |
You clearly don't understand the difference in the effects of amphetamines vs steroids. Let alone that greenies were prescribed by team doctors in many instances, which is perfectly legal, as opposed to some back alley pharmacist who is selling metabolic steroids. Guys like Mantle took them because he was out late every night drinking. So yeah, it's basically coffee, and forms of amphetamine can be bought over the counter at any truck stop. They woke players up, they didn't turn long fly outs into home runs.
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Tom C |
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The problem is that he failed a drug test early in his Red Sox career. That taints everything he did in Boston. He sure wasn't very good in Minnesota. Piazza and Bagwell are struggling to get in with much stronger resumes and weaker connections to steroids. I don't see any way Ortiz even gets 40% of the vote, let alone 75. |
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As far as Bonds, it is very naive to believe he started using in 98-99. Steroids were in the Giants clubhouse in the late 80s. He had a major jump in production when he moved from a hitters park in 92 to a pitchers park in 93. It is far more likely that he began using in 93. His production jumped again when he hooked up with Balco,the best in the business, in 2000-01. |
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The fact of the matter is that cheating has been around as long as baseball has been around. If you have convinced yourself that ped usage is a type of cheating that is worse than other types, so be it. But don't try to delude yourself, or me, that one is perfectly OK and the other isn't. |
Unless we assume that pitchers are disproportionately more likely to get caught when they cheat (i.e., stupider), there is pretty good evidence that pitchers were more likely than hitters to have been juicing. That is, a higher percentage of pitchers than of position players used PEDs.
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I concur with this. I would just say that Aaron, Mays, and Mantle were cheating the best way they knew how and that Bonds and Clemens were cheating the best way they knew how. Given the scientific advancements of the decades that separated them, Bonds and Clemens were able to get better stuff than their predecessors. But I see no particular reason to believe that if Bonds and Clemens had been born earlier that they wouldn't have been using greenies or that if Aaron, Mays, and Mantle had been born later that they wouldn't have been using PEDs.
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It blows my mind that there could possibly be people who don't view Mariano Rivera as a HOFer, let alone one of the greatest pitchers of all time.
Arguments over him being a failed starter don't hold water to me. He wasn't a failed starter. He found his role and dominated in it. Your starter can pitch a great game. But until you finish the game, it's not a win. So unless your position is that starters should have to pitch 9 innings every time they pitch, your argument that relief pitchers aren't important doesn't make a lot of sense. You don't win until the 9th inning is over. Mariano owned that 9th inning. And in the post-season you were more or less doomed: 8 - 1 with an 0.70 ERA and 42 saves. That's 50 post-season wins for your team when you had Rivera in the pen. That cannot be denied or diminished. Not to mention that before he even pitched the baseball, you already knew what he was going to throw. And you still couldn't hit it. He was exceptional and extraordinary, everything a HOFer should be. |
Adderall is not a substance that will turn deep flys into HRs but it is a banned performance enhancing drug.
Greenies cannot be simply dismissed just because the league didn't recognize the benefits of taking them. |
Eventually it will come to light that someone (or more) already in the HOF used PED's during the 1986-2006 era. What happens then?
That's why the more I think about it, the era should just be documented as the steroids era and we should go on with our HOF selections as normal based on stats taken in context of their own era, etc. Those with the best numbers will get in and life will go on........ Jose Canseco, source of much of the known info, has indicated that up to 75% of Major Leaguers were users at some point. He has been right on just about everything that he has told so far, so why doubt him now....... If Canseco is correct, how can you really differentiate who did and did not? |
I think there's at least as much reason to suspect Rickey Henderson as to suspect Bagwell or Piazza.
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Wasn't it obvious enough to MLB when Luis Gonzalez hit 57 home runs in the early 2000's.........
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Well, Glenn, Henderson played on the same Oakland teams with McGwire, Canseco, etc. so..........
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And yes, he was a flawed starter. He was a two pitch pitcher when he came up. He got lit up as a starter where he got exposed the second time through the lineup. He was put into the bullpen where his limited arsenal would get better results. Then he perfected the cutter and that pitch was so good that until the last few years of his career he was a one pitch pitcher. He would never get away with that as a starter. I certainly respect the opinions of those who believe he should be there, and he likely will be a first ballot inductee. I simply do not value the position of relief pitcher much. Tom C |
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To those comparing greenies to coffee, WOW. Ok to be fair 1 greenie would be like coffee if you could down 50 gallons of it in 5 minutes. My all-time favorite player is Wade Boggs. He was never caught cheating(in baseball) but like your favorite player I can guarantee he did. Whether it was greenies, steroids, corked bat or something else they cheated. The poster boy of baseball Mickey Mantle did do greenies, had a corked bat, and was rumored to do steroids. Yes steroids were in sports during his time and the 50 years before his time. I am not saying Mantle did steroids because it was way before my time, just that it was rumored he and Maris both juiced. Also David Ortiz should never be allowed in the HOF unless it is to visit with friends. Right or wrong these are my opinions and till proven wrong I stand by them. |
I don't think that greenies matter that much. I'm in the camp that it's more like coffee. Look for modern steroids, people have a lot of stats like for Bonds, pre-steroids, he hit X many home runs per year, and post (suspected) steroid use, his HR production went way up.
For any of the suspected greenie users, are there any stats out there that show that before the player used greenies, his stats were ordinary and that after he started using greenies, BOOM, he had HOF numbers? I don't know if anyone has ever shown this. |
There is a huge difference between greenies and steroids in my opinion. Unless I'm mistaken, greenies don't alter your body in the sense that a 165 pound player (like Pudge was when he came up) will morph into a 200 plus pound player in a season or two (like Pudge did) from taking greenies.
Greenies and steroids are both I guess PEDs, but they are in totally different leagues. You can't pop a greenie and go from hitting 40 homers to 70 homers. You can do that with steroids. I would argue that a greenie enables a player to play to their standard of play. Steroids enables a player to play above and beyond their standard of play. That's a big difference to me. |
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I was on the HOF's website, and they have nice write ups about each candidate...thought this sentence was interesting about Biggio:
"Only player in baseball history with at least 3,000 hits, 600 doubles, 400 stolen bases and 250 home runs." http://baseballhall.org/hof/2015-bbwaa-ballot |
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Guarantee Boggs cheated? He looked more like a beer vendor than a ball player. Did the 'roids or whatever you possibly claim he took help him flare thousands of balls to left field? He wasn't fast, didn't have much power and had an average arm. Which part of his game was aided by juicing? Just because someone is good doesn't mean they cheated. |
Enjoying the discussion on MLB Network. Costas seems to understand what the HOF actually is, much better than most. There's a doofus on there who is hanging in the conversation purely through yelling. I'm thinking we should invite him to join our forum.
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Let's look at it this way, if we go my route and allow for steroid use since it was massively prevalent from around 1986 - 2006, the only ones hurt that way were the minority of players who were "clean" and never cheated, correct?
Give me a list of those "clean" players during this era whose stats warrant HOF selection. I bet we don't get much past a half-dozen or so, which is a far less impact than banning everyone we think or know did PED's. Anyway, those half-dozen or so would likely get in the Hall anyway. By doing this, we avoid the annual arguments about who did PED's, suspected of PED's, etc. which will never be definitively proven. |
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No plot twists this time: Biggio, Martinez, Smoltz, Johnson. I was surprised Bagwell got over 55%.
Prediction for next year: Griffey Jr. and Piazza. |
Agree with Scott for next year, Griffey & Piazza, that's it.
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Thoroughly enjoying the interviews with the HOF inductees - everyone but Johnson so far. Hoping we get to hear a good interview with Griffey Jr next year.
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Harumph.
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I heard an interesting comparison of Raines and Mattingly. The argument against Mattingly is not enough great years. All Raines did was play a lot longer;however, he had fewer HOF years than Mattingly.
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Not sure Glenn, but it sure is nice to be able to post someone else's opinions on this, rather than my own, to avoid nasty fights with forum members who think my opinions are rubbish :)
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I came in at the end: Scott's opinions are rubbish.
Now, what are we talking about? Actually, to start throwing stacks of 2 cents around: Piazza and Jr. next year... Greenies did give an advantage, although not as much as steroids... David Ortiz is a giant cheater... Want to see Raines get in so my collection is more valuable... Mattingly is NOT a HOFer, sorry yankees fans... With the clarity of hindsight, would anybody draft Biggio for their team over Piazza, knowing what they would do in their careers? Ken |
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Since most are way smarter than me in this area and was not stupid enough to try them I will describe how they really work. Your level of steroid use is what makes the difference. Its like Barry Bonds and his few insane years and Roger Clemens and his amazing long career. Heavy users: These guys but up insane #s but only for a few years because your body just cant handle it. Look at Giambi, Bonds, and McGwire and how after they had the big steroid years they had crazy injuries. Moderate users: These were the guys that put up really good #'s for a longer time before the injuries hit them. Light/occasional user: These are the smart guys. Because they never had huge years but had long productive careers. This is the 75% of baseball players Canseco was talking about. They used them to stay healthy. IMHO at this level of use they received the same benefits as the guys using Greenies. |
I will offer one tiny bit of potential rubbish: I would trade Mattingly's 1989 for Raines' 1992.
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Pleased with this year's class and I'll enjoy the inductions, but generally the HOF has gotten so screwed up that I'm not that interested. Plenty of guys in because they had high up cronies greasing the skids. Deserving guys who just played in the wrong city don't get a sniff. Now we have PED use. No way to decide who did and didn't. I generally just keep my own HOF in my head.
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Not sure why Sheffield's name keeps coming up on MLB Channel all day for HOF. He was a known user, if Bonds & Clemens aren't getting in, no way Sheffield is. People are forgetting BALCO?
As an aside, since we talked all day about how dominating Randy Johnson & Pedro were as pitchers, just a moment to reflect back on 1986 and Mike Scott. You will recall the NY Mets were unstoppable that season, except when they played Houston and Mike Scott pitched. I'll always remember the NLCS, with Scott shutting out the Mets in Game 1 and again in Game 4 and then Game 6 going on forever with the Mets knowing that a loss would mean facing Scott again in Game 7. Of course the Mets ended up winning the longest playoff game in NL history and avoided Mike Scott in Game 7. To this day, both Darryl Strawberry & Dwight Gooden, the team's two biggest stars in 1986 will tell you that there was no way they were going to win a Game 7 against Scott. |
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and Scott was clearly scuffing the ball in 1986. |
C'mon, Steve, now that would be cheating.............
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Phil - thanks for the 86 memories. What an almost-magic year for Houston. I remember very well thinking "just get us to Scott". He was superman that year.
Regarding Sheffield, I watched mlb channel all day, and I didn't think there was much pro-Sheffield except for the one goober who wanted to ignore peds. |
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-as a Jays fan I am sad to see Carlos Delgado fall off the ballot; -rooting for McGriff for the same reason (former Jay); -Mariano isn't a HOF'er in my book nor are any closers, relivers or strictly DHs; |
I think cheating is cheating. Whether it's PED's or a corked bat. In my opinion, yes, I do feel Piazza, Biggio, Bagwell and Thome used. I would vote for Thome but I never saw Bagwell as a HOF caliber player.
That being said, it's a known fact that Jim Rice and Pete Rose used corked bats. Should we kick Jim Rice out? Also too-- about a year ago, a Mickey Mantle game used bat had surfaced that was corked. It was being auctioned off as such, and the Mantle family found out about the auction and threatened to sue the auction house if they did not remove the auction due to ruining the family name, etc. It was removed and that was that. So take that for what you will.... |
Crime Dog...........
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Steve:
Sheffield is on my list there....... |
Regarding Tim Raines' candidacy, have we all forgotten the drugs? The same issue seemed to derail Dave Parker's HOF chances many years ago. I realize that Raines was a little better player than Parker for his career, although Parker had a higher peak IMHO. Although less qualified, Keith Hernandez too.........
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I just took a look at the eligible players for the HOF going out to 2019, which is as far forward as you can go right now. I do not see any names going forward who have good enough numbers to get in but have strong suspicions of PED use. This does not include the confirmed users that I have already listed elsewhere in this thread (just added Ortiz to my list today).
The way I see it then, the only questionable names going forward are: Bagwell, Piazza & Kent (I might be in the minority on him). I think Bagwell is a user and should not get in, Piazza is a good possibility but nothing definitive so I would be willing to let him in at this point & Kent is also a good possibility, but no evidence. With poor defense and base running, I would say that he's on the borderline but it wouldn't be the worst thing in the world if he gets in either. To me, none of the confirmed users get in until after Bonds & Clemens, which isn't happening anytime soon, maybe never. So I guess going forward, the cloudy issue of who used and didn't use PED's may not be hovering over the HOF vote for too much longer. Ultimately, the decision will have to be made as to whether any confirmed PED users will get in though......... |
Palmeiro?
It's amazing how quickly Rafael Palmeiro fell off the HOF ballot and off the radar for discussion. He had the sweetest left-handed swing I ever saw (even better than Griffey's), and at the time his career ended, was one of only three players with 500 HR and 3,000 hits. In fact, I don't know if anyone else has even accomplished that yet.
Anyone remember him? I haven't heard his name mentioned in several years. As for Biggio, I couldn't be happier! It was only a matter of time. Just cause all you East and Left Coasters had never heard of him doesn't mean he wasn't a huge influence on the people in the Houston metropolitan area. He was the key ingredient to the rotating list of names that comprised the killer B's. No major league pitcher wanted to face the Astros line-up that featured Biggio, Bagwell, and D. Bell (or Berkman or Beltran in later years). Before someone like J. Kent gets in, I'd love to see Crime Dog or Dale Murphy get their due. Murphy was the equivalent of A. Dawson during the '80s. He just didn't have as long of a playing career. The stats don't burst any eye-balls, but they did during the early to mid '80s when 30 HR was a Herculean accomplishment. They got swamped when the juice hit the game. Too bad IMO. Murphy is the kind of guy the HOF needs to have in its halls. |
Quite a thread here. My responses to a number of topics:
Mariano Rivera is 100% a HOFer. He was dominant for his entire career and is the greatest to play his position. Ranking the relative worth of different positions is a slippery slope. Even if you aren't a fan of closers, the top few guys at each position deserve to be in - once you move beyond the top 1-2 players at each spot for the era I can understand arguing against certain positions. The fact that Mo wasn't a successful starter at 21 years of age should not be a factor - lots of young guys with 1-2 awesome pitches struggle until they find a third and there is no reason to suggest Mo wouldn't have developed another pitch to become a great starter. I think the PEDers will get in eventually. Right now they are paying the price for cheating, and getting caught for many of them, which I think is 100% fair. They did everything they could to win games, just like guys from every era (as has been pointed out here by many). Once they are in people will always look at their numbers and say "yeah, but...", epecially following not getting elected for a number of years, which to me is enough. If you were the best during an era when everyone cheated you belong in - the alternative is having a 20-year strectch of baseball where the guys who were clearly the best players are not included in the group that is supposed to contain the best players. |
I would have liked to see Fred McGriff get in. I actually collected baseball cards for a couple years before I ever watched baseball. Either the first or second game I ever went to was the Twins vs The Jays in Minnesota. I was amazed by what seemed like 100's of "McGriff is McGreat" signs. So after that game I followed his career and McGriff was McGreat.
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I've been reading a lot of articles from people who hold similar views on PEDs and the need to "prove" something when it comes time to punishing players. I've come away with this:
The HOF is entirely based on opinions: the opinion that someone was a HOFer. So if a voter has the opinion that someone cheated, that's all that matters. You don't have to prove anything. You just have to be of the opinion. Same principle that was used to vote in seemingly less-than HOFers. |
I know, Derek. I grew up wanting to draft Dale Murphy every year in fantasy baseball leagues during the 1980's. To me, he comes out to be about the same as Don Mattingly with a little longer peak time and a little longer career overall. This makes him just a little more deserving than Mattingly, in my opinion. Maybe one day, he gets the Veteran's Committee vote.........
As far as McGriff, I think he is one of the most harmed players from the steroids era which made everyone's numbers so big. I also think McGriff gets in one day via Veteran's Committee vote, much more likely than Murphy, in my opinion. |
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I think Rose and Jackson are different than PED users. They aren't in because they tried to lose, fix games, or bet so frequently that it is hard to think they never factored their bets into how the game was played (I know there are arguments that Jackson didn't throw the series, but that is the accepted reason). The PED guys, on the other hand, tried everything they could to win, likely including sacrificing some years off the end of their lives, and PED use has nothing to do with throwing games.
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So much stupid. This thread is filled with so much stupid.
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The more important fact in Jackson's case was that throwing games in those days wasn't looked down on. Guys like Ty Cobb and Tris Speaker are known to have fixed a game. It was just that the spotlight of the World Series gave the game a black eye. |
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It seems hard to believe that the PED users in baseball will be viewed more legitimately a generation from now or two generations from now when that has not been the case in other sports. |
Ryan - a hearty +1
McGriff definitely makes the HOAF, as does Delgado and many who somehow made the HOF. I also think there should be a HOL (hall of longevity) for some of the guys receiving forum tears. |
Votes
According to the WSJ, the following have received a vote for the HOF
2014--Jacques Jones 2013--Aaron Sele 2012--Eric Young 2011-- Benito Santiago 2010-- David Segui 2009--Jesse Orosco 2008--Shawon Dunston 2007--Jay Buhner 2006--Walt Weiss 2005-- Terry Steinbach 1980-- Sonny Jackson |
Al, I'm wondering if these weren't cases of a buddy voting for them just so they could say they received a vote. If they only gave each voter 5 votes, that might change.
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Gotcha. I personally do not have a problem with Sonny Jackson getting a vote. It is stupid but it does not put him in the hall.
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Remember after Jim Deshaies retired, he said all he wanted to make his career complete was one HOF vote? He seemed to be having fun, and very down-to-earth. Some voter gave him one.
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