E92 Croft’s (red)
E98 Old Put
E121 Kings, Gertenrich
M101-4/5 Everybody's, Haserot's, Mall Theater
R316 Douglas Park, Morton, Rialto
T205 Hindu, Drum
T206 Old Mill (brown), Lenox (brown)
T207 Red Cross
T213-3 Overprint
T216 Virginia Extra
W461 Playland
W514 Hendler's, Barker
W515 Fleer, Jersey
W551 Wool's
W554 Lucky Yo-Yo, Lukcy Deal, 40 Winners, Bonemery
W573/E120 Cafe du Monde, Cream Nut, Kings, Leader Theatre
W575-1 Johnson, Haffner's, Clark's, Gassler's, Leader Theatre, Queen City, Shotwell, Service Candy

I hate to be a pest, but using your criteria from post #32, you should delete m101-4 Everybody's too, as more than 50 examples exist. Also, I am among those who have yet to acknowledge Haserot's as a true back variation, FWIW.

As for Gertenrich, I'll leave the populations for others to report, but I too have a Walker SGC 40 that has no back damage. If you are declaring it scarce only when it has no back damage, then you'd better re-add Holmes to Homes as well, for although the pop reports show 70 graded, only nine of those are better than poor.

That's not being a pest at all; this is the feedback I want. I don't care about condition, so Holmes to Homes stays off the list. Is your objection to Haserot's just that it's a stamp (which I'm okay with) as opposed to all the other tough M101-4/5 backs, or that you suspect the stamp wasn't added until many years after the card was issued?

E92 Croft’s (red)
E98 Old Put
E121 Kings, Gertenrich
M101-4/5 Haserot's, Mall Theater
R316 Douglas Park, Morton, Rialto
T205 Hindu, Drum
T206 Old Mill (brown), Lenox (brown)
T207 Red Cross
T213-3 Overprint
T216 Virginia Extra
W461 Playland
W514 Hendler's, Barker
W515 Fleer, Jersey
W551 Wool's
W554 Lucky Yo-Yo, Lukcy Deal, 40 Winners, Bonemery
W573/E120 Cafe du Monde, Cream Nut, Kings, Leader Theatre
W575-1 Johnson, Haffner's, Clark's, Gassler's, Leader Theatre, Queen City, Shotwell, Service Candy

Good question. I think I'll go with "no comment".

First, I'm pleasantly surprised to see the R316 Douglas Park cards on this list, since I own a couple of them. But they really are just a stamp on the back on a regular card. How are they different from the T206 with the Howe McCormack stamp or the F stamp? If I stamp "Dave" on the back of a card, is it now on the rare back list? I think that I would only call it a "back" if it was printed on and not stamped (although how would you tell the difference sometimes?)

M131?

I am also pretty sure that there are more than 50 virginia extra examples out there.

M131 could go in the same category as D355; you can put it on your list if you reject Burdick's decision to catalog it as a set. Otherwise you have 100% of them with the rare back instead of less than 1%.

The difference is in the other issue that has been raised, stamping vs. printing. Let me explain my choice to include stamped backs, or rather, some of them, as I may not have been sufficiently thorough when I first addressed it. This part admittedly is a bit subjective, but I've arrived at what I think is a reasonable method of classification. Others surely will disagree. My thinking is influenced by some of the same criteria that folks in the hobby apply in deciding whether or not something should be considered a baseball card at all. Was it intended for public distribution? Was it used to advertise a particular product?

I don't think old Howe, or Gilliam, or F, or Jeff himself stamped a card as a means of growing his brand. They stamped their cards in the same way that people used to stamp their books, for identification of the owner's personal inventory. If, on the other hand, I were to stamp a card:

"Sal's Sno-Balls
Metairie Rd.
---------------------
One of 50 Pictures
Of Base Ball Players
Of the American
And National Leagues"

or something like that and give out those cards one summer to every customer who purchases a particular product, then I've created a new type of card. I submit that this is true whether I also own the printing press for the cards and the negatives for the photos that were used on them or, alternatively, if I'm just using pre-existing images for my cards or pre-existing cards for my ad.

That's just hypothetical, and I wouldn't place a premium on a card that was created in that way today using strip cards from the 1920s, but if they were created during a window of time in which the original unstamped card was still being actively distributed, then I would classify it as a different back for that set.

What if it was stamped a year later? A decade later? There's no clear right answer to me, but as a rule I would say it's period stamping as long as the players in the set were still active. And I think there are people who can tell if a card was stamped before or after it became heavily worn, so I would defer to their input if there are examples of stamps on prewar cards that might have been added in, say, 1986.

That does seem probable. I'll remove them for the next update.

E92 Croft’s (red)
E98 Old Put
E121 Kings, Gertenrich
E135 Merchant's (back from the dead)
M101-4 Haserot's, Mall Theater
R316 Douglas Park, Morton, Rialto
T205 Hindu, Drum
T206 Old Mill (brown), Lenox (brown)
T207 Red Cross
T213-3 Overprint
W461 Playland
W514 Hendler's, Barker
W515 Fleer, Jersey
W551 Wool's
W554 Lucky Yo-Yo, Lukcy Deal, 40 Winners, Bonemery
W573/E120 Cafe du Monde, Cream Nut, Kings, Leader Theatre
W575-1 Johnson, Haffner's, Clark's, Gassler's, Leader Theatre, Queen City, Shotwell, Service Candy

T206 Ty Cobb (but not D355) is included if you follow the letter of the Burdick law.
D355 (but not T206 Ty Cobb) is included if you follow the spirit of the Burdick law.
M131 is debatable, but I'm with Burdick on this one, so I'm leaving it off the list.

Just as a point of clarification, you can delete the m101-5 reference, bacause Mall Theatre is a strictly m101-4 set, as is Haserot's, if you're inclined to include it.

I was reading through this today, and it made me think about the D310s with the Aldon Candy and the ones with the Pacific Coast Biscuit stamps on the back. Would these meet the criteria, since the stamps are period?

Also, I wanted to bring this thread back, as it is quite informative for those that haven't read it yet.

Right back at you
 

Thanks for dredging up this old thread edjs...missed it on the first go around. Very informative, and I was racking my brain to come up with any more additions, but none yet. I am more of a front/common back collector, so only have 3 rare card back examples that are listed: W515 Fleer, W575-1 Gassler's Bread, and W575-1 Haffner's.

The Aldon Candy D310 is a neat card, but not sure if it qualifies...

Brian

Oops!
 

Just noticed that W575-1 Henry Johnson is on the list, which might allow the D310 Aldon Candy to squeak in as a contemporaneously stamped card. I have 7 Henry Johnson W575-1 cards, a fact that by itself might just knock it off this list, as I assume there are probably at least another 44 HJ's out there, and I didn't go on a hunting expedition to locate these over the years.

Brian

Even though you broke my heart when you removed Greiner's Bread from your list, I decided to post pix of mine ANYWAY!

After all, with TWO different ones, I have one of the LARGEST COLLECTIONS of them in the known world!

:D:D:D

I've got two more possible candidates to nominate for your list.

What about Helmar backed S-74-1 white silks. You can find S-74 silks all over Ebay but, I've heard you can probably count the number of Helmar backed S-74-1s on the fingers of one hand. There are also Red Sun backed S-74-1 white silks which are probably less than 1% of the total number of white version silks out there but, there are likely hundreds, if not possibly a couple thousand, that are out there so they probably don't count.

My other candidate would be the 1921 Herpolsheimer's cards. They're basically the W575-1 blank-backed strip cards. Though I believe there are something like only 68 of these cards known to exist in total, they are limited to only one known example for each different player. Your call on that.

Bob

Hey guys,

I do need to do an updated list for this. Too busy at the moment, but I'll try to get it up next week. Anyway, I'm happy to see the thread getting some attention again, as I think it's a good primer for aspiring type card collectors.

Rare Backs
 

Not sure if they qualify for the list, but I seem to come across 1 maybe 2 a year of E 107`s with the over print back while cruising through sites and auctions. Seem to recall seeing one 107 Type ll with the over print posted on a Net 54 thread, but could be mistaken. Good topic !!

I question whether the frequently seen purple Henry A. Johnson back-stamped W575-1 cards are sufficiently rare to be included on this list. However, there is a different, light-blue HAJ back-stamped W575-1 that I believe to be quite rare. Examples of both appear below.
Val

I have seen some fake Henry Johnson backs but that green one looks real. I don't think I have seen that variety before. We will have to get Al C's take on it.

This hobby sure is "curious"...how most rubber stamps on the back of cards knock down the grade and the value...even if placed by their original owner.

And on the other hand...cards like the henry johnson's...were likely distributed as blank backs, just like the others stamped by their owners, and then were stamped by the purveyor to aid in advertising and given away are coveted, rare and valuable.

As they like to say in Cambodia...same same...but different!

Can anyone say..."toy town!"

How about the T209-2 B.A. Thompson back? I think it fits your criteria, although it's a bit different in that Thompson is the only card in the set with that back, and Thompson can only be found with that back.

Not my card.

http://i1383.photobucket.com/albums/...psipsqkgdf.jpg


ETA: Looks like there are actually four different versions of the Thompson back: (A) no factory number; (B) stamped factory number; (C) printed factory number; (D) black border. Each one may be unique, or close to it. (Courtesy of t209-contentnea.com)

http://i1383.photobucket.com/albums/...psw4fnhkgt.png

I'd consider the purple Henry Johnsons pretty rare, and the green ones REALLY rare. I own a couple and have never seen any others, and Val, yours is AMAZING. I'm confident in their authenticity, and the fact that there's a WaJo out there is incredible to me.

-Al

Al & Leon, thanks for your input and kind words. I picked up this green (actually, I like to call it turquoise, which is one of my favorite colors) HAJ WaJo roughly 20 years ago, before TPG became big time and before WaJo cards became as expensive as they are today. I'm confident this card is legit, but I'd hesitate to buy it today if it wasn't already graded.
Val

the early '20's was a good time for cards...



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Updated Rarest Backs List
 

For those who haven't read through from the beginning of the thread, what I have been trying to compile here is a list of exceptionally rare backs on ACC-cataloged issues. There have to be fewer than 50 total examples of the type (so a T215 Pirate, for example, is too common) and the total number, whatever it may be, has to comprise less than 1% of the total population of the set (so an E107 with the "Breisch, Williams" stamp is too common).

Here, then, is the updated list with changes in bold. I continue to seek input on this.

D310 Aldon Candy, Pacific Coast Biscuit Co. stamp
E92 Croft’s (red)
E94 Your Out, Close's Oppie Dildock, Three Strikes, Pennant Winners, A Base Hit!, Your Safe! If..., Your Safe! Have..., Home Run!, Oh You Fan!
E98 Old Put
E101 D355*
E121 Kings, Gertenrich
E135 Merchant's
M101-4 Haserot's, Mall Theater, Everybody's type 1, Everybody's type 2, Everybody's type 3, Everybody's type 4
R316 Douglas Park, Morton, Rialto, Community
S74-1 Helmar
T205 Hindu, Drum
T206 Old Mill (brown), Lenox (brown), Cobb**
T207 Red Cross
T209-2 B.E. Thompson
T213-3 Factory 8 overprint
W461 Playland
W502/F50 Greiner's
W514 Hendler's, Barker, Mother's, Robinson
W515 Fleer, Jersey
W516-1-1 Sandow
W517 Piercy's
W551 Wool's
W554 Lucky Yo-Yo, Lukcy Deal, 40 Winners, Bonemery
W573/E120 Cafe du Monde, Cream Nut, Kings, Leader Theatre
W575-1 Johnson, Henry Johnson green, Henry Johnson and Howard P Bo***, Haffner's, Clark's, Gassler's, Leader Theatre, Queen City, Shotwell, Service Candy, Witmor horizontal, Witmor vertical


*The Niagara Baking back is certainly rare enough to qualify, but Burdick classified it as its own set; so you could say of these cards either that 100% of D355s have the same back ad or that < 1% of E101s are found with the Niagara stamp.
**The T206 Ty Cobb back is included in the list only because Burdick called it a T206. The card would not otherwise be considered a T206, but then again, nothing would, now would it?
*** This:

How about the E97 Blank backs?

they're not that rare

There's only one Austin that's not rare?

if one is looking for an e97 blank back for a type...it is not hard to find one. If one is looking for a particular player...that can be a challenge.

There are no e97 blanks banks that are anywhere near unique.

The proofs are not rare? With only one showing in PSA?

think what u want...you have a history of overvaluing your cards.

they are not proofs and they are not that rare.

a) I don't know if there are fewer than 50 of them, but
b) I don't think they actually are E97s, and
c) I'm excluding all blank backs from the list anyway.

I don't over value my cards in the first place I was asking because I only see one on the PSA population report. Why do you have a hardon for me?

check sgc as more people use sgc for vintage than psa

Only one there also check for yourself

honestly I really dont care...all I know is over the years I have seen a handful of partial sets of e97 b/w's sold as well as many singles. They are tough...no doubt. but there are way more than 1-2 examples of each.

Maybe raw but not on the reports. I did not want t get into a pissing match with anyone just wanted to ask the question.

Have to agree with Pete on the E97, difficult but not rare, especially compared to others on the list. In order for it to make this list I would expect to see an example, regardless of player, to come up for sale 2-3 times a year at most (not counting the same card being sold more than once). If I counted correctly there are at least 15 of the e97s on ebay right now and I know a board member has sold a few more earlier this year.

DJ

Hi DJ you show me 15 E97 Blank back proofs because I don't see them

I think the E121 Gertenrich cards are borderline for inclusion on this because of a large individual listing of about 30(?) on ebay about 15 years ago, each with some paper loss on the back. I imagine there were enough other examples before this find to possibly exclude it from the list. Possibly Rhett would be a good source for all the E121 backs currently on/not on your list.

Brian

Ask and you shall receive...http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_odkw...proof&_sacat=0

Plus 2 on ebay that recently sold (http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from...p2045573.m1684)

Plus 2 more in the recent REA (http://bid.robertedwardauctions.com/...tledescription)

Another listed in h& S (http://www.hugginsandscott.com/cgi-b...l?itemid=95142)

And 2 more in clean sweep (http://www.cleansweepauctions.com/listview.cgi - search for e97s)

So I count over 20 now that are either currently for sale or recently sold in the past couple months and I've barely started looking.

DJ

Talking about number 1 Austin, 1 SGC and 1 PSA that's only two cards that's not rare? What is your definition of rare then?

i believe there are 3 listed sgc sales on vcp of austin

There population report shows one

The point of this thread is not to find a particular player with a specific back, but rather to list rare backs regardless of who the player is on the front.

and just to get a little more back on topic. Here are my 2 red crofts :)

http://i1065.photobucket.com/albums/...%20bescher.jpg
http://i1065.photobucket.com/albums/...ed%20bemis.jpg

It absolutely is NOT !

Just ask anyone on this forum if they have a BB subject with a PIRATE back ?

You may be quite surprised how few responses you get.



http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/t...atecigpack.jpghttp://i603.photobucket.com/albums/t...atecigpack.jpg


http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/t...t215pirate.jpg




TED Z
.

there can't be more than 100-120 t215 pirates known...eh ted?

And 96 of them are in Richard Masson's collection. Which leaves 15 - 20 for everyone else.

Only three 1886 Hancock Clothing backs (or fronts) known, one each of Tomney, Buckley and Crothers.

exactly

those are rare alright!

Hancock Clothing cards don't meet the OP's criterion of being ACC cataloged.

There are several American Caramel back types for the E121/80 set. I would guess that at least one of them might qualify. Rhett, what say you?
Val

Burdick never knew about the Hancock Clothing cards--too rare for even him.