I would say in his prime that he was one of the ten best pure hitters in baseball. Hitting .324, .339, .349..no matter what era you are in, those averages are excellent. Not Tony Gwynn excellent, but very, very good. Jeter did what New York needed him to do. He got on base. He stole bases. He scored runs. He played solid defense. He helped a team that was laden with talent win multiple World Series.

I just can't get past the comment about Jeter being one of the five greatest players of the modern era. I don't know if I'd even put him in the Yankee top 5 from the modern era.

These players, in their prime, I would take over Derek Jeter in his prime, or would likely take over Derek Jeter in his prime:

Don Mattingly
Mickey Mantle
Joe DiMaggio
Rickey Henderson
Yogi Berra
Reggie Jackson
Dave Winfield

You might be defining the modern era differently.

Sorry, I should have specified. I do not include Aaron or Mays to be "modern" players (but that's a completely different argument). I'll rephrase it to say, he has been a top 5 player to play in the past 30 years.

Derek Jeter has amassed the 7th most hits in major league baseball history playing in the most competitive era in baseball. His career offensive WAR ranks him 20th in history and 3rd among players over the last 30 years and 2nd if you exclude A-Rod and his juice.

Leading the league in home runs or winning an MVP award is meaningless. Look at his career stats and you will be very hard pressed to find 5 players who had a more productive career than Jeter over the past 30 years.

As for the original topic, I'll stick to my original list:
T1. Honus Wagner
T1. Derek Jeter
3. Cal Ripken Jr.
4. Barrry Larkin

I would argue that Jeter was better than Wagner purely because of the time period they played in, but without opening that can of worms I'll just concede they're tied.

If you're evaluating players solely on a few years in their prime then there are a bunch of players better than Jeter. Roger Maris is better than all those players in that case, he had a three year span where he hit 133 home runs and had 353 RBI with two MVPs and a gold glove award.

This makes it sound as if Tony Fernandez was the Yankees' only option at short. Tony Fernandez was a place-filler, as it made no sense for the Yankees to go out and get a better shortstop because they had Derek Jeter a year away from the majors.

To disregard Jeter because he had a long career, or because he played on the Yankees, to me, is ludicrous. He had 200 hits 8 times in his career, and 190+ hits three more. That's quite a feat regardless of how many at bats he had. His lifetime OBP was .379 - an impressive number that puts him ahead of Pete Rose, despite Rose having 800 more hits. While he never won an MVP, that's an arbitrary award that, to me, means nothing - he should have won it in 2006 and could have won it in 1998 and 2009. It's like saying Ted Williams wasn't any good because he never won a World Series.

There's no question that Jeter belongs in the list of all-time greats, and all-time great shortstops as well.

And there's also no question that, steroids or not, obnoxious personality or not, and choking in the postseason or not, Alex Rodriguez had better numbers than all of them but one. As such, if I were to put together such a list, it would probably look like this:

1. Honus Wagner
2. Alex Rodriguez
3. Pop Lloyd
4. Jeter/Yount (virtually interchangeable in my mind)
6. Ernie Banks
7. Arky Vaughn
8. Joe Cronin
9. Cal Ripken
10. 10 is tough, but I probably put George Davis there.

Just underneath I would have Bill Dahlen, Luke Appling, Barry Larkin and Alan Trammell.

Fun discussion, made me look up a whole bunch of shortstops while I should be working. :)

-Al

So being recognized by the sports writers who cover the game as the best player in the game is meaningless? /head scratch

Well, of course you'll have a hard time finding anybody who had better numbers over the last 30 years. That's because you're providing such a narrow time frame, a time frame that perfectly fits Jeter's career. Most players, if they even played that long, started playing before your 30 year parameter, meaning the earliest part of their career is being excluded, or they started playing some time after Jeter did, meaning their later years are being excluded.

Let me get this straight. You're basically saying that Derek Jeter is the greatest shortstop to ever play the game?

http://www.williamgregory.net/images/laughing.gif

Ok, last 30 years only. From 1984 on. Players I would put ahead of Jeter.

Ken Griffey Jr
Barry Bonds
Frank Thomas
Jeff Bagwell
Craig Biggio
Tony Gwynn
Miguel Cabrera
Joe Mauer
Ryne Sandberg
Don Mattingly
Rickey Henderson

I could probably find a few more names, but my mind is too busy trying to wrap itself around how MVP awards, and leading the Majors in major statistical categories doesn't matter.

Yes, it's meaningless. By your logic of more MVP's=better players - so Al Rosen was a better player than Ozzie Smith, Al Kaline, Bill Dickey, Duke Snider, Mel Ott and Tony Gwynn.

Major head scratch is right...


Why doesn't that work? Were there not great players? There have been more professional baseball players playing over the past 30 year than any other 30 year period in the history of the sport. So why can't I use this sample size? That's when he played. That's when tens of thousands of players played and Jeter had a better career than all of them less maybe 4 or 5. That's pretty damn impressive. Even expand it to include every player who has played in the past 30 years and you'll still be hard pressed to find players with a better career.


Is that a stretch? Most members here have him on their top 5 list all time (and several have him at 1 and 2). Of the list, he's the only player to have played through the steroid era. He's the only player to face known steroid users. Wagner played before the league was integrated, today 38% of the league are minorities. Imagine what Jeter's stats would have been if 38% of the league was replaced by white minor league pitchers. We'll never know, so I'll just leave it at they were both the best of their time.

Joe Mauer better than Jeter? :confused:
Biggio?

Mauer? Biggio? Bagwell? Even Sandberg and Mattingly? I take Jeter over all those guys which probably puts him in the tp 5 of the last 30 years. Just my opinion, but his consistent longevity makes it hard to argue against him.

Whoa, wait a minute. Nobody here is disregarding Jeter because he had a long career. You're reading into something, and putting words in my mouth that simply aren't there. :p

The year before Jeter was a full time player, it is a fact that Fernandez was the starting shortstop for the New York Yankees. They may have had other options, but Tony got the majority of playing time, and by a wife margin. The aim of my statement was that there was no incumbent superstar that was keeping Jeter from finding playing time. When he came up, he was able to win the starting job, and keep it for two decades. If anything, I think I mentioned that Jeter deserved credit for holding on to the position for two decades. Staying in the game for even ten years is an accomplishment, as younger and stronger guys are always coming along to try and take your job. But to last for twenty years, and to do it playing for the greatest baseball franchise in history...that's really a phenomenal accomplishment. I recognize Jeter's greatness. He's the kind of guy that you could put on any team, and he'd make any team a contender. I mean that. He isn't showy on the field. But he is a leader. His confidence instills confidence in his teammates. His work ethic is unrivaled. So when it seems I am being critical of Derek, I am because he is being compared to the immortals of the game, and when that happens, he should have to prove himself. There is a difference between being a great player, and one of the best to ever play the game.

Back to the longevity topic. Any great player that ends up in the top 10 of hits, or home runs, or RBIs all time had to have had a long career. That kinda goes without saying. But the second time he led the league in hits was more a product of the sheer number of at bats he had than it was his "great year". He wasn't hitting .350 or .360 to get those hits. He hit .316. Certainly a very good year, but nobody ever won an MVP Award on the strength of hitting .316 alone. And truth be told, .316 is a little bit of a let down for Jeter. I'm betting he would be the first to admit it.

And not winning an MVP Award is nothing like not winning a World Series. Winning a World Series is always a team accomplishment. While one player can play out of their mind, and seemingly carry their team on their back, it is still a team effort. An MVP Award is an individual recognition. It is awarded to the best player in the league. While there will often be some disagreements, a great player will typically win at least one MVP in their career. I don't think Jeter should have won the MVP in 2006. Since WAR has been brought up in this discussion (not by you), I should point out that Jeter's WAR in 2006 was only a 5.5. His WAR was only ninth best in the American League. While it's hardly an exact science, a 5 + WAR is considered All Star level, with an 8 + WAR being MVP level.

But it must be said that while I use it in discussions because it gets to the point a little more quickly, I am not the biggest fan of WAR. And while Jeter didn't have the highest WAR in the AL in 2006, or the second highest, or the third...or the eighth, I don't think anybody could say those other guys ahead of him were more impactful than Jeter. Justin Morneau had a sensational season, and he was a tough opponent to go up against for the award. But WAR would have me believe that he was a bigger part of Minnesota's success than Jeter was a part of New York's success.

I don't know if I buy that. While I don't think Jeter was the AL MVP that year, at least I don't at this moment without further reviewing the season, the standings, and how the nominees, so to speak, compared. But I sure as hell don't think he was the 8th or 9th most important player in the AL in 2006. So, is WAR wrong here? It seems so, doesn't it?

I tell you what, Al. Let me look more in-depth tonight at the 2006 season, and I will give you an honest, educated, well thought out response. It may very well be that I agree with you, and Jeter may have deserved the MVP that season. We shall see.

I absolutely agree.

I like your shortstop list. I would move Ripken up a little, move Jeter down. I think in his prime Yount was a better player than Jeter, but that, of course, is my opinion, though the numbers bear that out. But Jeter also played the position at a high level for a really long time. When you consider that as recently as two years ago he was having an MVP caliber season at age 38, that says a lot about him.

I want to make it clear that I have nothing but the utmost respect for Derek Jeter. He's a true professional, and worthy of the Hallowed New York Yankees Captain designation.

When I enter into one of these discussions, I try to stick to facts as the basis of my debate as much as possible. Of course, all we're left with are a bunch of numbers, and the opinions of other baseball fans, with their own agendas, and favorite players, to fill in the holes for players that we never saw.

I've watched more baseball in my life than I should have. I've seen all the great players in the last 30 years. While an MVP isn't the only way of recognizing greatness, and keeping in mind that mistakes have been made with the award, I have over the years been able to look at a player, and gauge which ones of them have been what I would consider MVP worthy. And there have been some great players that were elected to the Hall of Fame that never won an MVP, and I don't know if I ever looked at them as being the best player in baseball, or at least their league. Paul Molitor is one player that I compare a lot to Jeter. The same kind of game. Molitor was a good shortstop and second baseman who could also play third, and even the outfield if need be. But he was not an exceptional glove man. His main path to greatness was his bat. Like Jeter, he had some power, but that manifested itself more in the form of extra base hits. Like Molitor, Jeter has been the spark plug that got his team going. A guy that could lead off, or bat second, and get on base with a really high batting average. A guy that could steal, and score on a single. A guy that had an incredible eye at the plate. Yet Molitor never won an MVP. Like Jeter, some of Molly's best years were later in his career. Molitor hit .341 with 225 hits and 113 RBI at age 39. Molitor had 2,000 hits after age 30 because he suffered so many injuries early in his career. Three of his four 200 hit seasons came after age 33. Like Jeter, Molitor had great speed. Jeter had 356 swipes, Molitor had 504.

One negative about Jeter has stuck out for me a little. And that's been his number of strikeouts. While he certainly wasn't striking out 200 times like Mark Reynolds, he did strike out over 100 times in a season 9 times. But when you consider Jeter only has 259 home runs, he shouldn't be 14th on the all-time strikeout list. Only two other guys on the all-time strikeout list ahead of Jeter have under 300 home runs: Bobby Abreu, who is right in front of Jeter, but has 29 more home runs in 2,500 fewer at bats, and Mike Cameron has 278 home runs but some 4,200 fewer at bats. All the other guys on this list have at least 400 home runs. That's a minor gripe, a nitpick, really, because again, Jeter is a career .311 hitter, and when you maintain that kind of average for two decades, into your forties, you're a special player.

Jeter will be a first ballot inductee, and I will cheer for him when he gets in.

Isn't Jeter's foreskin used as the tarp of the new Yankee stadium? That has to make him the greatest. Plus Tim McCarver thinks he's the greatest.

1. Ken Griffey Jr was clearly better than Jeter.
2. Barry Bonds, even before he bulked up, was clearly better than Jeter.
3. Rickey Henderson, greatest leadoff hitter in baseball history, I think he was clearly better than Jeter, also.
4. Tony Gwynn, highest career batting average since Ted Williams at .338. 8 batting titles, led the National League in hits seven times, five of which were over 200. And where Jeter's Gold Glove Awards were questionable, nobody questioned Tony Gwynn's defense. He won 5 Gold Gloves. In the first half of his career, before he added weight, he was a fantastic athlete.
5. Albert Pujols. .318 lifetime batting average, 514 home runs, 1,571 RBI in 14 seasons. His average season is .318, 40 HR, 123 RBI. He has 554 doubles, a total of 1,083 extra base hits in 14 seasons. He's also won multiple Gold Glove Awards. I'd take him over Jeter in a heartbeat.
6. Miguel Cabrera. Triple Crown winner. Has won the last three American League batting titles, and the last two MVP Awards. 12 seasons, lifetime .320 AVG, 382 home runs and 1,344 RBI. I would take him over Jeter, too.

Griffey Jr.
Bonds
Henderson
Gwynn
Pujols
Cabrera

There's no way that Jeter cracks the top 5 players in the last thirty years.


I'm going to leave Frank Thomas out, even though I think he's one of the greatest right handed power hitters the game has ever seen.

Never mind I see what you are doing with Bonds.

Vlad Guerrero deserves some consideration for that list too. .318 average with great power numbers.

For the sake of the arguments I will concede top 7. Close enough.

Funny how much Yankee bias (for and against) crops up in these discussions.

Greatest hitters or players past 30 years? Randy Johnson, Martinez, Maddux, Rivera........

I believe it is not. It is awarded to the player that the sportswriters in the BWAA think had the best season.

In 1991, those writers thought that Terry Pendleton's season was better than Barry Bonds', despite the fact that Bonds outperformed Pendleton in virtually every meaningful statistical category.

In 2006, the writers thought that Justin Morneau had a better season than Derek Jeter, despite the fact that he played a much easier position, had a lower WAR, fewer runs, fewer hits, a batting average .20 points lower, and on base percentage .42 points lower, and scored 21 fewer runs. But, you know, Morneau had more RBIs.

History is littered with examples where the rightful winner of the MVP was overlooked by writers who simply don't get it. They value RBI too highly, they value home runs too much, they usually discount defense and modern analytics, they place inordinate emphasis on whether the team was a winner, and they take character into consideration (which is why Albert Belle never won an MVP despite being one of the greatest players in the game in the 90s).

-Al

That's a great list, but I disagree with some of the above.

Barry Bonds: Normally I exclude him entirely because of the steroids, but if you exclude his steroid years (most people start it around 1998, but some people think it even started when he was on the Pirates), his career numbers are impressive, but not even close to Jeter's. His season stats are out of this world though. You can pretty much take any one of Bond's season and extrapolate it across his entire career and he will be better than Jeter, but I always exclude him, because you honestly will never know what his career would have been. Honestly, if you don't care about steroids or whatever, Bonds was the best player in the history of baseball and it's not even close.

Henderson: I won't argue Henderson. I said before in this thread I thought he was better.

Gwynn: I won't argue Gwynn.

Pujols: I think it's too early in his career. Right now, he's a first ballot Hall of Fame baseball player. He had the best 10 year run out of any hitter ever IMO. But over the past couple years he seems more like a career .260, 20 home run guy. If Pujols keeps going with this downward trend, I would take Jeter's career over Pujols, but if Pujols turns things around, it'll clearly be Pujols 10 times out of 10. So it's too early. Also, hopefully he was clean throughout his career!

Cabrera: Same with Pujols, it's too early. I think Pujols and Cabrera deserve a spot on the top 20 all time list (assuming they can have above average finishes to their careers), but both players are years from retiring. Anything can happen.


Ken Griffey Jr: This is a lot closer than most people realize. Here are there 162 game average numbers:

G R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB BB SO BA OBP SLG OPS OPS+
162 101 169 32 2 38 111 11 80 108 0.284 0.370 0.538 0.907 136
162 115 205 32 4 16 77 21 64 109 0.311 0.379 0.442 0.821 116

Griffey hit more home runs granted, but he had almost 30 points less in his career batting average and half as many stolen bases as Jeter did. Everything else; doubles, triples, walks, strike outs are about the same. The only thing Griffey did that Jeter didn't was hit home runs, but Griffey never had a 200 hit season, he only hit above .310 once in his career while Jeter averaged above .310 throughout the entirety of his career. Really, it would just be a preference argument at this point. Offensive WAR gives the edge to Jeter, OPS+ gives it to Griffey. Do you like home runs or hits? Otherwise they were very similar.

My list for the past 30 years would be:

1. Rickey Henderson
2. Tony Gwynn
3. Ken Griffey Jr.
4. Derek Jeter (very close)
5. Albert Pujols

I think when Miguel Cabrera retires he will knock Jeter off the list and Pujols will (hopefully) move up to third.

My list for the past 30 years including Steroid Users:
1. Barry Bonds
2. Alex Rodriguez
3. Rickey Henderson
4. Tony Gwynn
5. Ken Griffey Jr.

Don't forget that somehow Andre Dawson won on the worst team in baseball despite Ozzie outplaying him in every statistical category except HR and RBI and having a worse War by almost 3 points.

Not sure why it's crazy to take Mauer over Jeter. Mauer is a significantly better offensive player (3 batting titles, a slugging title, and an OPS+ title) while playing legitimate (not the Derek Jeter version) Gold Glove defensive at a super premium position. In all honesty, the only thing Jeter has over Mauer is longevity - a not-insubstantial point in his favor. Point being, however, that it's not crazy to put Mauer up there vs Jeter.

Cabrera is miles ahead of Jeter, even right now. Yeah, Miggy's defense is bad (not super-horrible but bad, mainly because of his limited range) but his offense is off the charts. Cabrera's got 12 years in the majors now and he's been a super-elite player for 11 of them. He's won a Triple Crown and consistently put up huge numbers. His average season (.320/35/123, OPS+ of 153) is better than Jeter's best season.

I would take Miggy over Jeter any day, all day.

Let's look at how valuable a player is to their team: If you take out Morneau in 2006 you have:
Jason Bartlett
Nick Punto
Lew Ford
Rondell White
Luis Castillo

If you take Jeter out of the Yanks you still have:
Cano
A-rod
Damon
Giambi (When he was good)
Posada
Abreu
Matsui

Jeter was 6th on his own team in Hr's, 3rd in RBI's

Now now Pete, be fair. While I agree with you completely that Morneau fully deserved the 2006 MVP (and Jeter is my favorite player), you left out Mauer, who himself was 6th in MVP voting, Torii Hunter (31 HR) and a decent Michael Cuddyer (24 HR) from your list. Justin had some helpers in that lineup and some decent pitching with Johann and Liriano-- they won 96 games after all.

Still, shame on Al for taking a pot shot at Morneau's award :)

The best season on a playoff contending team, too.

Player A hit .319 scoring a league leading 108 runs, with 41 a league leading HR and 112 RBI in 2012. Led the league with a .987 OPS. Finished second in the MVP because his team was only 83-79.
Player B hit .317 scoring 97 runs, with 24 HR and 84 RBI in 2013. Finished the season with a .911 OPS. Won the MVP.

Now, granted, Ryan Braun probably should have won the MVP over Buster Posey in 2012. But the Giants were a better team, and Ryan Braun tested positive for elevated testosterone in the 2011 playoffs. Posey did have a great year, winning the batting title (doing so while coming back from a horrific leg injury the year before). But it shows how crazy the MVP race is.

If you ask me, this is how the MVP should have gone, and should go this year:

2011: Ryan Braun and Matt Kemp co MVP
2012: Ryan Braun
2013: Paul Goldschmidt
2014: as of right now, Clayton Kershaw

Braun's positive test had no bearing on the MVP, which is a regular season award. Dodger fans have been so incensed that Braun won, even before the test. But their numbers are so close, Braun's leading his team to the postseason was the difference:

Braun .332 AVG, 109 runs, 33 HR, 111 RBI, 33 for 39 (85%) stolen bases. 77 extra base hits. 58 walks, 93 strikeouts. .597 SLG .994 OPS.
Kemp. .324 AVG, 115 runs, 39 HR, 126 RBI, 40 for 51 (78%) stolen bases. 76 extra base hits. 74 walks, 159 strikeouts .586 SLG. .986 OPS.

Braun lost the batting title on the last day of the season. He went 0-4. Jose Reyes, the winner, dragged a bunt in his first at bat, then got pulled out of the game.

The way I look at it, both men put up Triple Crown worthy numbers. I think Kemp was outstanding, and should have shared the award.

In 2012, while everybody was talking up Cabrera's Triple Crown, Braun was chasing one of his own. He won the home run title. Chase Headley was ahead of Braun by one RBI on the last day of the season, and he got two more. The one Braun had really no chance at was the Batting title. He ended at .319, and Posey hit .336. But if you compare Braun and Cabrera's numbers, they were pretty close.

Average:
Cabrera: .330
Braun: .319

Runs scored:
Cabrera: 109
Braun: 108

Hits:
Cabrera: 200
Braun: 191

Home runs:
Cabrera: 44
Braun: 41

RBI:
Cabrera: 139
Braun: 112

Stolen Bases:
Braun: 30
Cabrera: 4

On Base:
Cabrera: .393
Braun .391

Slugging:
Cabrera: .606
Braun: .595

OPS:
Cabrera: .999
Braun: .987

Total Bases:
Cabrera: 377
Braun: 356

Runs created:
Braun: 142
Cabrera: 139

Extra Base Hits:
Cabrera: 84
Braun: 80

Offensive win %:
Braun: .773
Cabrera: .745

Compare those seasons to the one that McCutchen had last year and won the MVP. His season isn't even close.

Oh, I'm going to get into the Jeter vs Griffey Jr discussion. There is no comparison between them. Ken Griffey Jr may be one of the top 5 offensive players of the last 50 years. Jeter..isn't.

Here's something to chew on.

Seasons with 100 + strikeouts:
Derek Jeter 9
Ken Griffey Jr 5

Career home runs:
Derek Jeter 259
Ken Griffey Jr 630

Derek Jeter is 14th all-time in strikeouts. How does a guy who has hit more than 20 home runs in a season 3 times have 1,819 strike outs?

Oh yes, we're going to dive deeply into this.

Bill James has an interesting analysis where, as of 2002, he claims Craig Biggio was better than Griffey Jr. I will see if I can find it online. But the essence of it was that he pointed out a lot of categories where Griffey didn't do so well, aside from HR and RBI. Yeah, perhaps like asking other than that Mrs. Lincoln how was the play.

http://www.williamgregory.net/images/laughing.gif

That's so wrong, Peter. Shame on you.

Of course, I have been known to use that one...from time to time. Hey, it's been nearly 150 years now. Once you cross the hundred year mark, I think the "too soon?" question no longer applies.

Oh, yeah, my reason for responding, Peter's Summer Stock performance not withstanding...I think Biggio has been underrated by a lot of baseball fans.

His career OPS is only .791, but he's got to be one of the top two or three most versatile members of the 3,000 hit club, if not the most versatile. He played second and catcher primarily, but he also played 363 games, more than two seasons worth of games, in the outfield. And he was very good defensively.

When you break his Hall worthiness down...

3,000 + hits
668 doubles
291 home runs and 414 stolen bases
4 Gold Gloves, 5 Silver Slugger Awards, 2 top 5 MVP finishes as a second baseman.

He's the kind of guy I want on my team. Hustle, power, speed, versatility, and always a dirty uniform. Give me a guy that gives 110% every time.

One thing Biggio and Yount both had in common that most players today could take lessons from-they never half-a__ed it to first base on a ground ball out. They ran. Those guys played under the assumption that they could either beat the throw, or that somebody might double clutch, or not make a clean catch.

Those are the guys I'd build my team around. The Braves had their little fun fest with Glavine, Maddux and Cox, time to put Biggio and Bagwell in together. I've always been super impressed with both those guys.

"You have to understand, when I wrote in 1998 that Craig Biggio was one of the five greatest second basemen of all time, people thought I was nuts. Very few people at that time saw him as a special player. I liked that, too—I liked people thinking I was out on a limb about something when I knew I was right. I loved doing a point-by-point summary comparing Craig Biggio to Ken Griffey Jr., and showing Biggio was actually as valuable, in his best seasons, as Griffey. Griffey at that time was generally regarded as the best player in baseball. In 1997 Griffey outhomered Biggio 56-22, in 1998 56-20. But Biggio had a higher batting average, more doubles and triples, more stolen bases with a better stolen base percentage, was hit by pitches an additional 20 times a year and grounded into fewer double plays. He had as many walks and fewer strikeouts. It was pretty obvious that, if you added together all of Biggio's advantages, Biggio was, at a minimum, on the same level."

Here is a link to the actual analysis on Google books.

http://books.google.com/books?id=3uS...riffey&f=false

Bill James is likely pointing out stats that suffered in the second half of his career. Because at age 30, I thought Griffey was going to break Hank Aaron's record. His stats at 30 were downright frightening:

.299 AVG, 1,063 runs, 1,742 hits, 320 doubles, 30 triples, 398 home runs, 1,152 RBI, 167 stolen bases, .948 OPS. 7 Silver Sluggers, 10 All Star Games, 10 Gold Gloves and an MVP Award. His home run totals from 1993 forward: 45 in 1993, 40 in 1994, 17 in 1995, 49 in 1996, 56 in 1997, 56 in 1998, 48 in 1999.

He had 3,316 total bases at age 30. If only he could have stayed healthy.

I mean no disrespect to Derek Jeter, who has been a great baseball player for a long time, a player that will be a first ballot Hall of Famer. But Griffey was one of those transcendent players. He was my generation's Willie Mays.

Between 1996 and 1999, 4 seasons, Junior hit .294 with 209 home runs and 567 RBIs. Unreal.

Biggio was sneaky good. And one word I love using to describe far too few baseball players is utility. Biggio brought utility to the team. The Brewers have a guy that reminds me a lot of Biggio in Jonathan Lucroy. He's really coming into his own. He's a really good defensive catcher (will probably win the Gold Glove in the NL this season). He's going to hit between 15-20 home runs. Luc's already got 38 doubles, 56 runs and 54 RBI. And he's walked 45 times while striking out only 54 times.

Luc's rookie year, 2011, he hit .265 with 12 HR and 59 RBI
2012 he hit .320 with 12 HR and 58 RBI. Missed more than a month and a half with a broken bone in his hand.
2013 he hit .280 with 18 HR and 82 RBI. He stole 9 bases in 10 tries.
2014 he's hitting .307 with 12 HR and 53 RBI, and an .852 OPS. He catches primarily, plays first base. He can also play third base, but has only done so in spring training.

Biggio was a throwback player. That's the feel I get when Lucroy plays. And I love those kinds of players. They make the game fun. Those are the guys that will do whatever it takes to win.

I think I'll do an analysis of Biggio vs Jeter, too. That sounds interesting to me.

I don't think it is fair at all to compare two players ONLY using home runs and strikeouts. I think everyone here will agree.

Besides, Ken Griffey Jr. struck out MORE that Derek Jeter did. Griffey struck out 1,779 times in 11,304 plate appearances; or 15.7% of the time. Jeter struck out 1,819 times in 12,435 plate appearances; or 14.6% of the time. The amount of 100+ strike out seasons is as relevant as the amount of 172 hit season. It isn't relevant at all.

Here is a comparison of the two players over their 162 game average:

Hits:
Derek Jeter: 205
Ken Griffey Jr.: 169

Runs:
Derek Jeter: 115
Ken Griffey Jr.: 101

Doubles:
Derek Jeter: 32
Ken Griffey Jr.: 32

Home Runs:
Derek Jeter: 15
Ken Griffey Jr.: 38

RBI:
Derek Jeter: 77
Ken Griffey Jr.: 111

Stolen Bases:
Derek Jeter: 21
Ken Griffey Jr.: 11

Strike Outs
Derek Jeter: 109
Ken Griffey Jr.: 108

Batting Average:
Derek Jeter: .311
Ken Griffey Jr.: .284

OPS:
Derek Jeter: .821
Ken Griffey Jr.: .907

The two are nearly identical except Griffey hit more home runs, Jeter hit more singles and stole more bases. It's a toss up as to which a coach would prefer. From purely a statistical standpoint, Derek Jeter wins out. He has a marginally higher Offensive WAR, but it's so close that it's almost negligible. Personally, I would take Jeter because he plays shortstop, but they would both help a team.

FWIW, in my opinion Griffey was a GREAT center fielder, whilst Jeter was an above average shortstop. I would take Griffey over Jeter, but overall I rank Jeter high among SSs.

Griffey battled one injury after another in the second half of his career from diving all over the outfield, and over walls to rob home runs. The point is that Jeter shouldn't have struck out as much as he has. He's struck out more than every single member of the 3,000 hit club. That Jeter has struck out more than Griffey is absolutely funny.

You skipped OBP. Jeter's OBP is only 7 points higher than Griffey Jr's.

OBP:
Griffey: .370
Jeter: .379

OBP is a much better metric than batting average. While batting average will always be considered, and important, on base percentage is the best metric. And Jeter, who's got a much higher batting average, has almost the same on base percentage as Griffey. So, Griffey gets on base nearly as often as Jeter.

When it comes to power, though, there is no comparison:

SLG:
Griffey: .538
Jeter: .432

And again, his slugging dropped, as did most of his metrics, because of the injuries he fought through. At age 31, Griffey's SLG was .568.

Jeter is a singles hitter. Griffey, who has 370 more home runs, has nearly the identical number of doubles.

Doubles:
Jeter: 538
Griffey: 524

And one thing we haven't mentioned that puts Griffey way way ahead of Jeter-defense. Griffey Jr is defensively one of the best center fielders of all-time. Jeter is an average, maybe slightly above average defensive shortstop. Griffey, who is overall a better offensive force than Jeter, is a much better defensive contributor.

There is simply no contest. Griffey is the superior player. Again, Jeter is great, but Griffey Jr was a mega star.

Consider their best seasons by WAR. Remember a WAR of 5+ is All Star level. A WAR of 8+ is MVP level (these are per Baseball Reference)

Jeter's best WARs:
1999 8.0
1998 7.5
2009 6.5
2006 5.5
2001 5.2

Griffey Jr's best WARs:
1996 9.7
1997 9.1
1993 8.7
1991 7.1
1994 6.9
1998 6.6
1992 5.8
2000 5.5
1990 5.2

Jeter had 5 seasons with a WAR of 5.0 or higher. Jeter had one season (1999) that, per WAR, would be at an MVP level.

Griffey Jr had 9 seasons with a WAR of 5.0 or higher. Griffey Jr had three seasons (1996, 1997 and 1993) that, per WAR, would be at an MVP level.

So, to summarize:
Derek Jeter is an outstanding hitter with excellent speed. He won the 1996 American League Rookie of the Year. He is a lifetime .311 hitter. He has hit 259 home runs, and stolen 356 bases. His 3,432 hits is sixth all-time, and his 1,914 runs scored is 10th all-time. He is a 14 time All Star. He has won 5 Silver Slugger Awards and 5 Gold Gloves. He has never won an MVP, but has finished in the top 5 in MVP voting 3 times. He has led the American League in runs scored once, and in hits twice in his 20 year career. Derek Jeter has struck out more times than any other member of the 3,000 hit club. He has had 5 seasons with a WAR figure of 5.0 or higher (which is considered All Star level). He has had one WAR figure of 8.0 or higher (which is considered MVP level).

Ken Griffey Jr was a complete player with great power, speed and defensive ability. Griffey is a lifetime .284 hitter with 630 home runs and 1,836 RBI. His 630 home runs is sixth best all-time, and he is thirteenth in RBIs. Griffey is a 13 time All Star. He has won 7 Silver Slugger Awards and 10 Gold Gloves. He has led the American League in runs scored once, RBI once, Slugging once, and total bases twice. He has also won 4 home run titles. Ken Griffey Jr's 382 home runs were the most by an American Leaguer in the 1990s. Only Mark McGwire hit more in the decade (405). McGwire played in both leagues. Ken Griffey Jr was the 1997 American League MVP. He has finished in the top 5 in voting four other times. Griffey Jr has finished with a WAR figure of 8.0 or higher 3 times (which is considered MVP level). He has had six other seasons with a WAR of 5.0 or higher (which is considered All Star level). He also had a 4.9 WAR rating in 1999. Ken Griffey is a member of the Major League Baseball All-Century Team.


Jeter is a great player. But Griffey across the boards is just better. He has more Silver Slugger Awards, twice as many Gold Glove Awards (and Jeter's are questioned by many). Jeter has been selected to the All Star Game one more time. Griffey Jr has won an MVP while Jeter has not, though Jeter may have been a better choice in 2006 than Justin Morneau. Still, Griffey Jr has had more WAR 8+ (3 to 1) and WAR 5+ (9 to 5).

JAWS (Jaffe WAR Scoring System) has rated these players:
Derek Jeter 12th best shortstop behind Alan Trammell. Top 5: Honus Wagner, Alex Rodriguez, Cal Ripken Jr, George Davis, Robin Yount

Ken Griffey Jr 5th best center fielder (behind Mickey Mantle). Top 5: Willie Mays, Ty Cobb, Tris Speaker, Mickey Mantle, Ken Griffey Jr.

7 year peak WAR:
Derek Jeter 42.2
Ken Griffey Jr 53.9

Pretty much any way you slice it, Griffey is simply better.

Of course Jeter also is one of the best postseason players of all time. Worth mention.

To be completely honest with you; all of this is very well done, but I have a few points to add.

Derek Jeter's defense is considered well below average from a WAR point of view and he has a career defensive WAR of -9.5. I believe it has to do with his range. I have no idea how defensive WAR is calculated, but from what Bill James has explained, basically Jeter's range blows and when it is compared to other shortstops (who are among the best fielders), it hurts Jeter's WAR.

Since the only stats either of us are throwing out are offensive, let's look at offensive WAR:

Jeter's oWAR: 95.8 (20th all time)
Griffey's oWAR: 83.8 (27th all time)

Jeter's Seven Peak Years:
1999: 9.0
1998: 7.3
2006: 7.1
2001: 6.7
2000: 6.6
2005: 6.5
2007: 6.2
Total: 49.4

Ken Griffey Jr's Seven Peak Years:
1993: 8.1
1997: 7.6
1998: 6.9
1996: 6.6
1991: 6.4
1992: 6.2
1999: 6.2
Total: 48

So if you compare their best years:
(Jeter : Griffey)

9.0 : 8.1
7.3 : 7.6
7.1 : 6.9
6.7 : 6.6
6.6 : 6.4
6.5 : 6.2
6.2 : 6.2

There oRAR (offensive runs above replacement level) show the same story too. Here are there seven year peaks:

Jeter: 520
Griffey: 498

Basically, Jeter's was a (marginally) more productive offensive player, both throughout his career and when you compare their peak years. One hit home runs and one hit a crap ton of singles and stole bases. In the end, their offensive production equaled out to be virtually the same!

Jeter led the league in oWAR twice, and was top 5 seven times.
Griffey led the league in oWAR twice, and was top 5 five times.

When you factor in defense, it'll show Griffey to be a better player because he was a better defensive outfielder than Jeter was a defensive shortstop, but everything points to Jeter as the better offensive player.

Isn't it amazing how long it took for George Davis to be recognized.

That's a bit of a stretch, I think. He's a career .308 hitter with a .465 slugging % in the playoffs. Those are fine numbers, to be sure. But they pale next to Carlos Beltran (.333 & .683), Ruth, Gehrig, and (I'm sure) many others I'm forgetting. Jeter has very impressive totals - all-time leader in PAs, hits, doubles, triples, 3rd in homers, etc - but those are all the result of his having played a full season's worth of games in the postseason, not because he was particularly great in the postseason. In fact, in all the numbers that measure a player's RATE at doing something (average, OBP, slugging, etc), Jeter isn't in the top 10 in anything.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/po..._batting.shtml

Griffey career OPS+: 136
Jeter career OPS+: 116

Jeter highest OPS+: 153 (only season higher than 132)
Griffey highest OPS+: 171 (had 11 full seasons higher than 132)

Griffey was a better offensive player than Jeter. A LOT better.

I would definitely include Jeter as one of the all time greats in post season history. Unfortunately, he won't rank in the top 10 in any postseason metric because there are so many players with smaller sample sizes than Jeter has had.

An example! Do you know who leads all players in post season OPS? The great Willie Aikens does! He has played in 12 post season games, but man did he shine :)

Derek Jeter has played virtually one full season (158 games) and has put together numbers that are better than his 162 game averages! That's pretty damn impressive!


Hits
Regular Season 162 Game Average: 205
Playoff 158 Game Total: 200

Runs
Regular Season 162 Game Average: 115
Playoff 158 Game Total: 111

Doubles
Regular Season 162 Game Average: 32
Playoff 158 Game Total: 32

Home Runs
Regular Season 162 Game Average: 15
Playoff 158 Game Total: 20

RBI
Regular Season 162 Game Average: 77
Playoff 158 Game Total: 61

Stolen Bases
Regular Season 162 Game Average: 21
Playoff 158 Game Total: 18

Walks
Regular Season 162 Game Average: 64
Playoff 158 Game Total: 66

Batting Average
Regular Season 162 Game Average: .311
Playoff 158 Game Total: .308

On Base Percentage
Regular Season 162 Game Average: .379
Playoff 158 Game Total: .374

Slugging Percentage
Regular Season 162 Game Average: .442
Playoff 158 Game Total: .465

OPS
Regular Season 162 Game Average: .821
Playoff 158 Game Total: .838

The fact that Jeter was able to play at such a constant level (and even slightly higher level) than he normally played during his career with such a huge sample size speaks volumes! When you even consider the stronger pitching matchups in the playoffs and the level of pressure, it's absolutely astonishing!

I'm not saying he was the best postseason player all time, but he is certainly up there.

OPS+ is a great stat for comparing a power hitter with a power hitter, or a slap hitter with a slap hitter, but not a slap hitter with a power hitter.

A great example, in 2004 when Ichiro broke the single season hit record and led the entire league with a WAR of 9.1 his OPS+ was only 130 or right about Ken Griffey Jr.'s 13th best season. Would I take Ichiro's 262 hits, 36 stolen bases, .372 batting average and only 63 strikeouts over Ken Griffey Jr.'s 22 home runs, 72 stirkeouts and .286 batting average? You bet I would.

Power hitters naturally have higher slugging percentages and are walked more skewing their OPS higher than a slap hitter. Offensive WAR takes into account OBP, SLG, stolen bases and positional adjustments.

An interesting exercise would be to take the players with enough plate appearances to be a truly meaningful sample -- I assume such a list would include Ortiz, Ramirez, Chipper, possibly Alomar and Justice, other Yankees like Williams and Posada and maybe O'Neill -- and see how they stack up.

Well, without getting too deep into it...

There are 8 players with over 300 career post season at bats and their career post season OPS compared to their regular season OPS is ranked below:

(Postseason OPS / Regular Season OPS)

Manny Ramirez: .937 / .996
Chipper Jones: .864 / .930
Bernie Williams: .850 / .858
Derek Jeter: .838 / .821
Jorge Posada: .745 / .848
David Justice: .717 / .878
Tino Martinez: .672 / .815
Kenny Lofton: .667 / .794

Jeter is ranked fourth, but is surrounded by some impressive company. Also, it looks like Jeter was the only player above to play at a higher rate during the post season vs. regular season. If that's not clutch, I don't know what is.

You will never convince me that a guy that hits a bunch of singles is better than one of the best home run hitters in baseball history. Why? Again, and I have to keep mentioning this. Griffey Jr was hurt for almost the entire second half of his career. That is why the numbers are close. I give Jeter credit for staying healthy, especially playing shortstop, but at his best, Ken Griffey Jr blows Jeter out of the water.

OPS is the be all, end all of offensive metrics, if you ask me. The game of baseball is about scoring runs. To score runs, and win, people need to get on base, and there needs to be power to score runs. OPS is power + on base percentage. OPS + is a combination of those two things adjusted for the parks the player played in.

The very highest OPS + Jeter has ever had was a 153 in 1999. He was tremendous. He hit .349 with 24 home run (career high), 219 hits, 37 doubles, 9 triples, 19 stolen bases. He scored 134 runs, and for the only time in his career, eclipsed 100 RBI (102).

Ken Griffey's best OPS + was in 1993, 171. He matched that again in 1994. If you look at his highest OPS + seasons, he has 5 seasons above 153. Jeter's second best OPS + is 132 in 2006, the season everybody seems all hot and bothered about him getting cheated out of the MVP. Ken Griffey Jr had 12 seasons that were better than Derek Jeter's second best season.

You looked at 162 game averages. Well, on a 162 game basis, Jeter's average OPS + is 116. Griffey Jr's is 136.

I ran a report on Baseball Reference for career OPS +. The only parameter I included was careers with over 7,500 at bats. 182 batters between the years 1901-2014 had 7,500 at bats. Ken Griffey Jr's 136 OPS + was 34th highest of all-time. That is his composite, the healthy years and the years with injuries all rolled into one. Derek Jeter's 116 OPS + is 100th on this list. And that seems about right for Jeter. Barry Larkin, who was a comparable player, has the same 116 OPS +. Robin Yount is at 115. Ken Griffey Jr is sandwiched between George Brett, Reggie Jackson, Gary Sheffield, Vlad Guerrero, Al Kaline and Fred McGriff. Steve Garvey, Lou Whitaker, Adrian Beltre, Gary Carter and Ryne Sandberg surround Jeter.

Just for giggles, I reran the test again, lowering the at bats requirement to 5,000, and had the list run for the first ten seasons of a player's career. In other words, when Griffey was actually healthy. Of course, Jeter was also in his first ten seasons. Ten years in, Jeter was a .315 hitter with an .848 OPS, and a 120 OPS +. So, his numbers are a little higher, but not remarkably so.

But look at Griffey Jr. When he is healthy, there is no comparison between him and Jeter. None. On a list of 173 hitters who had at least 5,000 at bats in their first ten seasons, Jeter is 68th. Certainly an improvement. But Griffey Jr jumps all the way up to 13th. The only hitters who had a higher OPS + in the first ten years of their career: Ted Williams, Albert Pujols, Mickey Mantle, Stan Musial, Johnny Mize, Jeff Bagwell, Henry Aaron, Barry Bonds, Willie Mays, Joe DiMaggio, Ed Matthews and Miguel Cabrera. Griffey is ahead of Frank Robinson, Ralph Kiner, Chuck Klein, and Al Simmons.

Before the injuries set in and slowed Griffey down, there was absolutely no comparison offensively between Ken Griffey Jr and Derek Jeter. Griffey Jr's 150 OPS + is superstar level.

To put this another way...Derek Jeter's best ever single season OPS + is 153, again in 1999. For the first ten seasons of his career, Griffey's OPS + was 150. For a decade, Griffey Jr's play was at the same level of Jeter's best ever season.

One last thing. 356 stolen bases in 20 years, and 2,707 games hardly qualifies as a crap ton. When you are 170th on the all-time stolen base list, you haven't stolen a crap ton of bases. ;)

Seriously? Having a post season OPS that is .017 higher than your career regular season OPS is "clutch"? :rolleyes:

"Congratulations, Derek Jeter, for having a post season OPS that is marginally higher than your regular season OPS. That is the very definition of clutch."

I explained above why OPS+ is not an appropriate metric when comparing a slap hitter with a power hitter. Power hitters usually have higher slugging percentages and will generally have higher on base percentages, so their OPS+ will always be higher. If you want to compare Griffey with Bonds, use OPS+. If you want to compare Jeter with Rose, use OPS+. But if you want to compare Griffey with Jeter, OPS+ isn't appropriate.

Proof: If Player A hits 200 singles and then steals second, third and home every time he would probably be considered the greatest player in baseball history, but his OPS+ would be worse than Dan Uggla hitting 30 home runs and batting .230.

You're right, if Griffey was healthy he would have had one of the best careers in the history of the sport! But he didn't remain healthy :( If Jeter wasn't injured in 2013 and didn't have the burden of playing an extra 158 post season games, maybe he would have had another couple 200 hit seasons. But he won't :(

Offensive WAR takes into account everything OPS+ takes into account PLUS stolen bases and the position you play. Jeter's best years were marginally better than Griffey's best. Jeter's career numbers were marginally better than Griffey's. They are near identical! I'm not even saying Jeter was the better player (I ranked Jeter lower than Griffey previously in thread!) I'm just saying they are damn near close.

More proof OPS+ is useless!

In 2001 Ichiro won the MVP, ROY and took the country by storm, posting one of the best seasons we have ever seen! He had 242 Hits, 56 Stolen Bases, ONLY 53 Strikeouts, 127 Runs Scored and a .350 Batting Average! Ichiro's OPS+ was 126

In 2008 Dan Uggla had a year that Dan Uggla always has. He had 138 hits, 5 stolen bases, 32 home runs, 171 STRIKEOUTS (HOLY $HIT!) and a .260 batting average Dan Uggla's OPS+ was 126

If you think those two seasons should be compared in any way then this discussion is pointless.

I think you miss the point. It's probably much harder to hit in the post season as you are up against only elite teams and shortened pitching rotations. So yes, it is impressive to play as well as you did in the regular season and all those meaningless games against second division teams etc.

When some of the best players in the sport drop .067 OPS points on average (or 12%) and you manage to be the ONLY player to improve your game in the playoffs. Yes, that makes you clutch.

Lemme let you in on a dirty little secret. Come up close, don't wanna say it too loud:

Power hitters are a LOT more valuable than slap hitters

The job of slap hitters is to get on base. OBP measures that yet you discount it for sluggers because they "walk more often". So what? Isn't that kind of the job? Get on base? And home runs are waaaaaaaaaaaaaay more valuable than singles. That's just a fact.

OPS+ is absolutely a fair comparison between guys, regardless of whether they are slap hitters or power hitters.

Since the first page anyway. But I agree it's pretty surprising that George Davis isn't getting more love from a forum of pre-war fans.

Ugh. This is painful.

While we're in close and whispering, let me share a little known secret with you.

A hitters job is to help win games.....

If your job is to get a great OPS+, Griffey is a stud.
If your job is to help win games, Jeter is a tad bit better.

It's great that OPS+ measures a players park adjusted OPS (yay?), but I would think a stat that measures overall offensive production would be a bit more relevant.

I provided several examples PROVING OPS+ is a terrible metric! But here's another one!

Player A: Gets 200 singles and no walks in 600 at bats (a.333 batting average, .333 OBP, .333 Slugging%). Player A steals 2nd base, 3rd base and home every single time (so 600 stolen bases that year). Player A is widely considered the greatest baseball player to ever live, because if you can bat .333 and steal 600 bases, you ARE the greatest player who ever lived. Player A should have an OPS+ well below 100 (probably in the 70 to 80 range).

Player B: An average power hitter (I always use Dan Uggla as an example). He has a around 20-25 home runs, a .240 batting average, maybe a .300 OBP and a .450 slugging percentage. He doesn't garner even an all-star selection at how mediocre his year is. His OPS+ would be around 110.

HONESTLY, which player would you take? OPS+ is absolutely useless.

If a metric cannot tell the difference between what would be the greatest baseball player in the history of the sport and some mediocre power hitter, then how useful could it possibly be?

Edited to add: OPS+ is useless comparing two fundamentally different players, but can be a good guide in comparing very similar hitters (such as Jeter vs. Ichiro, or Bonds vs. Griffey).

I readily admit that I don't know a lot about George Davis, but I'm certainly going to learn about him.

I rank Davis as the 11th best T206 player, including all the pitchers. He's terribly underrated, but so is Arky Vaughn -- well, except with us and Kurkjian. Wagner is 1. Vaughn is 2. Davis is a few spots down but still ahead of Jeter.

Some more metrics which only consider offensive contribution.

James explains in his book, The Bill James Historical Baseball Abstract, why he believes runs created is an essential thing to measure:

With regard to an offensive player, the first key question is how many runs have resulted from what he has done with the bat and on the basepaths. Willie McCovey hit .270 in his career, with 353 doubles, 46 triples, 521 home runs and 1,345 walks -- but his job was not to hit doubles, nor to hit singles, nor to hit triples, nor to draw walks or even hit home runs, but rather to put runs on the scoreboard. How many runs resulted from all of these things?[1]

Runs created
Griffey 1,994 (22nd)
Jeter 1,900 (27th)

Adjusted Batting Runs
Griffey 511 (42nd)
Jeter 276 (150)

Adjusted Batting Wins
Griffey 47.6 (50th)
Jeter 25.3 (180th)

Offensive Win %
Griffey .663 (161st)
Jeter .597 (42ns active)

WPA win probability added
Griffey 46.6 (42nd)
Jeter 31.4 (89th)

wOBA (career weighted on base average)
Griffey .384
Jeter .362

Fangraphs offense value (batting and base running combined above average)
Griffey 440.2
Jeter 360.1

RAR - runs above average (batting + fielding + base running + replacement + positional)
Griffey 778.8
Jeter 759.3

Batting value
Griffey 451.4
Jeter 317.2

These different metrics take into consideration the players positions, their production with their bats, and with their legs. Time after time, metric after metric, Ken Griffey Jr, even with one injury after another slowing him down for much of the second half of his career, is ahead of Jeter, in many instances way ahead. These are standard and Sabermetric analyses. Griffey creates more runs. He increases win probability better. He just does more.

Now you can say that these stats don't take into consideration what would happen if Jeter singled 300 times in a season, and stole 200 bases in 200 tries, with a chicken on his head. It doesn't matter. Ken Griffey Jr was the better player in pretty much every measurable available.

And again, when compared against the greats that have played the same positions: JAWS rankings
Ken Griffey Jr is ranked the 5th best center fielder
Derek Jeter is ranked the 12th best shortstop

I also wanted to bring up something you said earlier.

Ted Williams never had 200 hits in a season, either. Is Derek Jeter a better hitter than him, too? Really, getting 200 hits in a season isn't a great accomplishment. In one of the seasons he got 200 hits, (202 to be precise), he only hit .309. He got 200 hits because he came up 654 times. He actually came to the plate 752 times.

Griffey had half as many stolen bases as Jeter did. Ok, but Griffey wasn't really a base stealer. And neither was Jeter. You keep bringing up his base stealing like it's something impressive. Stealing 354 bases, again, really isn't that impressive when you consider he's played 20 years. 61 people have stolen more bases than Jeter. And if I were able to run a report of players that averaged more than the 18 bases a season Jeter has stolen, the list would be a lot longer. If Jeter were a home run hitter, and I said he was 61st all-time on that list, would you be impressed? Know who is 61st on the all time home run list? Harold Baines. Was Harold Baines a great power hitter?

But back to the "Ken Griffey never had a 200 hit season". Again, so what? Ted Williams never did. I'd wager a lot of Hall of Famers never did. Robin Yount only had one 200 hit season. I bet that Griffey is sitting home tonight thinking to himself "if I'd only hit more bloop singles to right field!"

Know how many 200 hit seasons there have been in Major League history? 482. That's right. Jeter had 8 200 hit seasons. But some of that is a product of where he hits in the lineup. Jeter has 4,644 plate appearances where he was the leadoff hitter, and 6,591 plate appearances where he batted second. Griffey had 8,932 plate appearances batting third, and 984 batting cleanup. This netted Jeter an extra 67 at bats per 162 games. That's an extra 20 hits per season just because of where he hit in the lineup. Jeter was a table setter. It was his job to get on base for the run producers in the lineup.

But you know what is impressive? Hitting 50 home runs in a season. Unlike the dizzying number of 200 hit seasons that have been accomplished (if you want to call it an accomplishment), there have only been 43 50 home run seasons in the history of the Major Leagues. The dead ball era ended in 1919. So this is now 95 years since the dead ball era. Let's just break this down.

Major League Baseball was founded in 1869. So, that's what, 145 years of baseball? Well, the National League was founded in 1876, I believe, but we'll go with 145 seasons.

482 200-hit seasons / 145 seasons. That's an average of 3.32 200 hit seasons per year. That's probably low, as the rules were different then, but I'm feeling generous.
The deadball era ended in 1919. So, from 1920 until now, there have been 94 seasons.

43 50-home run seasons / 94 years. That's 0.4577 50 home run seasons per year. So, about one every other year.

482 200 hit seasons
43 50 home run seasons

Of those 43 50 home run seasons, Griffey Jr accounts for 2 of them.

Let's look at players that have had multiple seasons of 40 + home runs:
Ruth 11
Rodriguez 8
Bonds 8
Killebrew 8
Aaron 8
Griffey Jr 7

So in the history of the Major Leagues, only Babe Ruth, Alex Rodriguez, Barry Bonds, Harmon Killebrew and Henry Aaron have had more 40 home run seasons than Ken Griffey Jr's 7.

What about 50 home run seasons?
Sosa, McGwire and Ruth 4 each
Rodriguez 3
Griffey Jr, Mantle, Mays, Kiner, Foxx 2 each

Funny, even though Junior got hurt, a career line with a .284 AVG, 1,662 runs, 630 home runs, 1,836 RBI, 7 Silver Slugger Awards, 10 Gold Gloves and an MVP season...he still had one of the greatest careers in Major League history. If he hadn't gotten hurt, he might have broken all the records. But 6th in home runs, 15th in RBI, 13th in total bases...all while being one of the great center fielders in the game's history...I'd say he did have one of the great careers.

But I'm not sure how the number of post season games Jeter played affected the number of 200 hit seasons he had. Injuries might have cost him a shot at another. But the number of post season games played should have no impact whatsoever. Several months pass between the end of the World Series and spring training. So Jeter's playing in 150 or so post season games is not even worth mentioning as it impacts his career regular season stats.

I've pretty much come to the conclusion that nothing I could show you will change your mind. Ken Griffey Jr was the better all around player. Jeter was outstanding, too. Both men will be first ballot Hall of Famers. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

George Davis
 

And the argument that he, who never received a single HOF vote until the 1998 veterans' committee, is better than Derek Jeter is???

I really don't know. Pretty good stats for a deadball guy.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/jaws_SS.shtml

Pretty interesting table. Not the end all or be all of the discussion, but certainly interesting.

These are not the full lists.

WAR
Wagner 131
Ripken 95.5
Davis 84.7
Yount 77
Vaughn 72.9
Jeter 72.2
Trammell 70.4

JAWS
Wagner 98.2
Ripken 75.8
Davis 64.5
Yount 62.1
Vaughn 61.8
Jeter 57.2
Trammell 57.5


OPS+
Wagner 151
Vaughn 136
Davis 121
Jeter 116
Yount 115
Ripken 112
Trammell 110

Before I respond to anything below, I want to restate; I believe Ken Griffey Jr. was a better player than Derek Jeter, but marginally. I first said it in post 98 and again in 127. Purely from an offensive production standpoint, they are at a very similar level IMO (as I said in post 113) and deserve to be considered equally among the elites. I don't think Jeter is better, but I certainly do not believe Griffey is nearly as far ahead as Jeter as you've been insinuating. That's all I've been arguing.

Excluding the juicers, I think they are both top 5 players of the last 30 years.

No one will argue (especially me) that Griffey wasn't the better hitter, so when I dive into some of the stats below I am going to ignore the metrics that ignore base running (obviously).


Runs created
Griffey 1,994 (22nd)
Jeter 1,900 (27th)

I love Runs Created, and as you can see above, they were both very close.

Jeter leads all shortstops (even Wagner) in Runs Created. The only other leadoff hitters in front of Jeter are Ty Cobb, Rickey Henderson and Pete Rose - which is pretty impressive since Runs Created is a stat that weighs home runs pretty heavily, so to see Jeter rank so high with less than 300 home runs speaks volumes at the level of dominance in other offensive aspects. The only other player with less than 300 and not previously mentioned was Tris Speaker, who I think batted second?


Offensive Win %
Griffey .663 (161st)
Jeter .597 (42nd active)

Offensive Win % isn't really a metric. Basically, if there were 9 Derek Jeter's in your lineup, how ofter would you win? Well, Jeter was a lead off hitter, so it would be kind of pointless to have 9 lead off hitters on your team. This is basically a metric to determine who has the "optimal" combination of power and speed. Griffey had more speed than Jeter had power, but this doesn't really mean one is worse/better than the other. For comparison; of all players in the league right now, guess who leads in OW%? Cabrera? Pujols? Nope, Joey Votto.

RAR - runs above average (batting + fielding + base running + replacement + positional)
Griffey 778.8
Jeter 759.3

Griffey gets a marginal bump because of fielding, but otherwise, they are near identical. Less the fielding, Jeter might actually be ahead.

Offensive WAR
Jeter 95.7
Griffey 83.8

I added this in just to drive home how similar the two players are. There are three very real and relevant metrics for calculating offensive production above; Runs Created, RAR and Offensive WAR. In all of them it paints the picture that the two players had an almost identical value to their respective teams. That's all I tried to argue in post 98 and that's what my work and your work has pointed to.

Half of the metrics you provided do not take into account stolen bases and some include fielding. When you take those out of the equation, it paints a different picture. See above.



Getting hurt doesn't make you a better player.

Would you take Ken Griffey Jr. in 2003 when he played 53 games and hit .247, or would you take some mid level replacement player? The middle level player. Why? Because the middle level player was better in 2003 than Ken Griffey Jr. Just because an injury made a great hitter bad doesn't mean his bad season was great. Who knows, maybe he was injured because of the level he played at? Maybe Griffey would have had a healthy career if he was a .250 hitter. No one knows so it's pointless to speculate.



What are you trying to change? I've said at least three times in this thread Griffey is the better player. So congrats. I just think it's very very very close, and everything you've pointed out above goes with that.

Also, I got rid of your rant about the 200 hits. How did that even come up? I agree 200 hits is an arbitrary number (like 50 home runs, or 147 walks), but it was meant to be paired with the batting average statistic I used in the same sentence (that you left out).


Edited to add:

Here is the original list that started this whole Griffey vs. Jeter thing. As I said, I think it's close.

Jeter has had far more plate appearances batting second than he has leading off.

I know he batted second most games when Damon played and second for Knoblauch., but I would still consider him a leadoff hitter. Regardless, there is now difference statistically between a leadoff hitter and hitting second.

Looking at his career stats, it seems he had some big numbers in the 1890s but had a fairly mediocre second half of his career in the 1900s. Ended up only at .295 lifetime in an era where the top tier players obviously hit much higher than that. I am guessing most of those WAR numbers are coming from a few years in the 1890s which, for most people anyhow, would tend to omit him from discussions of all time greats.

What appears to be a mediocre second half of his career is largely due to the very low offensive output in the league from about 1904 until near the end of his career. He wasn't as good a hitter as he had been in the 1890s but he was still good. FWIW, his WAR for ten seasons in the 1890s is 43.1 and for eight full seasons in the 1900s (not counting two seasons that he totaled 100 ABs) it's 41.8.

Looks like I guessed wrong then. :D

It's good to see that we all reached a consensus about Jeter :)

We have.

Yankee fans feel that all people who underrate Jeter do so because they have an "Anti-Yankee bias"

Non Yankee fans feel that all Yankee fans overrate Jeter because they have a "Yankee bias"

See.. We all agree!

Honestly, if your counterpoint to a metric is a dumb example like this one (600 stolen bases in a year??!), it kinda invalidates your counterpoint.

Jeter had 10% more PAs than Griffey did and still came up 5% short in runs created. The total is relatively close but the accumulation rate is not. Jeter = 1 run per 6.54 PAs, Griffey = 1 per 5.66 PAs. In other words, Griffey created runs 17% faster than Jeter. That's a HUGE difference.

Really all this does is show that Jeter was a lot better than other shortstops offensively - no argument there. Griffey's offensive competition at CF is a lot better than Jeter's offensive competition at SS. And that's even accounting for the positional adjustment included in OWAR.

Offensive players have a number of jobs they're supposed to do but their top two are as follows: get on base and do damage in the process of getting on base. Jeter and Griffey get on base at about the same rate (.379 vs .370) but Griffey does a LOT more damage in getting on (SLG = .538 vs .442). That makes him a significantly better offensive player than Jeter.

Exactly.

That's an exaggerated scenario to point to OPS+'s flaws. If you want a real world example look at post 127:

Because your magical OPS+ number says they're the same must mean those seasons were just as good. I would venture to guess no serious baseball fan would ever compare these two seasons on the same level. I rest my case.

I 100% agree, but Jeter was TWICE as productive on the bases than Griffey was, so as every metric above concludes, it balances overall production out to be about the same.

If you're so attached to Griffey that you are certain he is miles and miles and miles ahead of Jeter then alright; there's no convincing you otherwise. I think it's a very close race though.

Jason

That you keep going back to point out Jeter's stolen bases, and how he was "twice as productive on the bases", is just silly. He stole on average 17-18 bases a season. That's one stolen base every nine games. 48 players in baseball stole 17 bases last season. I would wager to guess that the 17 or 18 bases those guys stole netted maybe 2 or 3 runs more.

So technically, you're right. Jeter was twice as productive every year with those whopping 17 stolen bases. Griffey didn't need to steal a lot of bases because he figured out if he hit the ball into the seats, he could casually stroll around all the bases at once. And Griffey hitting 40 home runs, which he did a lot, that did have a big impact.

I never said he was the world's best base stealer, but combine 350+ stolen bases with 3400+ hits and it's very impressive. Jeter's longevity tarnished his 162 game SB average. Jeter's best five seasons on the bases were 34, 32, 30, 30 and 27 stolen bases, which is very good.

Productivity can come in the way of power or speed, they both end with the same result.

Just look at the Runs Created stat you showed earlier, Griffey has created marginally more runs. If you look at their stats, Griffey has 400 more total bases and Jeter has 170 more SB's. Griffey got out marginally more than Jeter and struck out more than Jeter, when you factor in all of that, Griffey created the 20th most runs compared to Jeter's 27th. Couple that with Jeter's higher oWAR and they are neck and neck in overall offensive production.

First of all, why was Ichiro's season "one of the best seasons we have ever seen"?

The only two statistics that were exceptional were his 242 hits, and his 56 stolen bases. 127 runs scored is a nice total, but it's nowhere near the best all-time. In fact, since just 2000, there have been 27 seasons where a player scored 127 or more runs scored.

He had 242 hits. That's a really great figure. But he had a whopping 738 plate appearances. Only 24 players in the last 113 seasons have had more plate appearances in a season. So while he was very good, hitting .350, his hits total wasn't anything Earth shattering, either. It was part the product of a great season, and an even bigger part an incredible number of plate appearances.

So while the number of hits he had was certainly great, again, it's nothing mind blowing. And his 56 stolen bases? He had 70 stolen base attempts. That's a fine total, and it's certainly something we don't see as often as we used to. But again, 56 stolen bases is nowhere near the best individual total ever. In 114 games this season, Dee Gordon has 54 stolen bases. And he's only had 503 plate appearances.

So you'll excuse me if I question your claim that Ichiro had one of the greatest seasons in baseball history. No, he really didn't. For the first 50 games the game was played, there were players that were hitting for averages much higher than .350, scoring much more than 127 runs, and stealing more than 56 bases.

The rest of his numbers are actually quite pedestrian. He only walked 30 times. So while he had a lot of hits, he got on base a total of 280 times, which was good for the 11th best total in 2001. Barry Bonds in 2001 got on base 342 times. He had 156 hits, 177 walks, he was hit by 9 pitches. Jason Giambi got on base 320 times. Luis Gonzalez got on base 312 times. Sammy Sosa got on 311 times, and Todd Helton 300. Lance Berkman, Alex Rodriguez, Chipper Jones, Jeff Bagwell and Carlos Delgado all got on base more times than Ichiro, too. And even terrible old Dan Uggla got on base 223 times. He only had 138 hits, but he also had 77 walks, and got hit by 8 pitches.

So, what about the rest of Ichiro's offensive production? 34 doubles, 8 triples, 8 home runs. 69 RBI.He slashed .381/.457/.838.

Dan Uggla scored 97 runs, he had 37 doubles, a triple and 32 home runs. As far as how many times he struck out, 171, so what? An out is an out is an out. One of Ichiro's outs counts the same as one of Uggla's outs. Ichiro made 458 outs in 2001. Uggla only made 396 outs.

So, while Ichiro was having "one of the greatest seasons in MLB history!", he only scored 30 more runs than Uggla. And he drove in 23 fewer runs. That is reflected in runs created:

Runs created (source Baseball America, under more stats)
Ichiro 2001 127
Uggla 2008 100

Runs created per game

Ichiro 7.2
Uggla 6.5

Ichiro, for having one of the greatest seasons ever, wasn't that much more productive than Uggla. Look at the runs created per game. When you consider that Ichiro had 119 more plate appearances than Uggla did, they'd be even closer if with the same number of opportunities.

And one more thing. Dan Uggla is a second baseman. You took a player from what is typically the least productive offensive position in baseball for your comparison.

In summary, not only is Ichiro's 2001 season not one of the greatest of all time, your comparison of Ichiro and Uggla did nothing to show that OPS is a meaningless stat. It is not all encompassing, as it does not take into consideration stolen bases, and there are metrics that do. But OPS is an outstanding metric to determine a player's contributions with the bat. The reason Dan Uggla's OPS 2008 OPS is higher than Ichiro's 2001 OPS is because Uggla thrived in both getting on base, and generating power. Both are vital to team success. Ichiro got on base slightly more often, but his power numbers compared to Uggla's were nowhere close.

You see to get stuck on batting averages, Jason. Batting average is still a good metric. It shows how well a hitter is able to get on base with his bat. But if a player's job is to get on base ahead of the power hitters, which pretty much matches Ichiro's job description, he's only marginally better at that then Uggla. Ichiro hit .350 in 2001, and Uggla hit only .260 in 2008. But Ichiro's OBP of .381 is not a lot better than Uggla's .360. Why? Because Uggla walks a lot. When he's not hitting home runs, he provides value to his team by getting on base. Ichiro's OBP was only 31 points higher than his batting average because he only walked 30 times in 738 trips to the plate. That's actually pretty bad for a leadoff hitter. It wasn't enough to keep him out of the lineup because he was obviously a great hitter at that time. But again, Uggla in 2008 had a higher OPS than Ichiro did in 2001 because he provided more value to his team. Instead of this example your provided showing why OPS is meaningless, it has had the opposite effect. It has done a great job of showing exactly why it is such an accurate metric. You looked at things like batting average and strikeouts while completely ignoring walks. Uggla in 2008 got on base nearly as much as Ichiro, and he provided much more power. So, upon further review, Ichiro's season wasn't as spectacular as you made it out to be, and Uggla's 2008 season wasn't as bad as it was made out to be.

Ichiro's WAR was only 7.7. That's a very good figure, but hardly indicative of a monumental season.

This has to be the most absurd thing I have ever read.

LOL, you're completely oblivious to the things we tell you. No, Griffey wasn't just marginally better than Jeter when it came to run production. Remember this?

Griffey created runs 17% faster.

Yes, productivity can come in power or speed, or power and speed both. But 3,400 hits and 350 stolen bases is nowhere near as productive as 2,800 hits and 630 home runs. It's not even close.

You know what the most telling stat of all is? Intentional walks.

Jeter has had 39 intentional base on balls in his career.
Ken Griffey Jr had 246 intentional base on balls in his career.

And again, stop bringing the strikeout thing up. Remember where I said that Derek Jeter, a slap hitter shortstop had more strikeouts than any of the other 24 members of the 3,000 hits club?

Hank Aaron hit 755 home runs.
Willie Mays hit 660 home runs.
Rafael Palmeiro hit 569 home runs.
Eddie Murray hit 509 home runs.
Stan Musial hit 475 home runs.
Dave Winfield hit 465 home runs.
Carl Yastrzemski hit 452 home runs.
Cal Ripken Jr hit 431 home runs.

And Derek Jeter, who averages 13 home runs a season, has struck out more than all of them.

You do understand that power hitters, people trying to hit the ball 425-450 feet, and naturally going to strike out more often than somebody just trying to dink the ball into right center field, right? Do you understand the amount of power that is required to hit a home run? Once a power hitter commits to their swing, they can't change it without breaking something. They can't check their swing the way a light hitting shortstop can.

Yet Derek Jeter struck out more than any of them. And he struck out a lot more than the names I mentioned.

Ken Griffey Jr was one of the most dominant offensive forces in the history of Major League Baseball. Between 1993 and 2000, an 8 year period, Griffey hit 351 home runs. His 162 game averages for this 8 year span:

616 at bats, 126 runs, 181 hits, 31 doubles, 4 triples, 52 home runs, 137 RBI, 17 stolen bases, 91 walks, 116 strike outs, 373 total bases. .993 OPS.

And while he was putting up these spectacular numbers, he was also the best center fielder in the game, winning 7 Gold Gloves in 8 seasons.

Derek Jeter was a great player. He showed up every day, and played solid defense. He has been a great pure hitter. He could generate some power, steal some bases. But mostly, Jeter was the mark of consistency. He was even keel. Joe Torre could put him in his lineup every day, and he knew that Jeter was going to be there every day. And I cannot express just how much I respect the man. Living in New York City, where Mother Theresa could have come on vacation and been tempted, he was a choir boy. He came to work, punched the clock, and three hours later, after his team has won, he went home. Then he came back the next day, went three for five, and went home again after another win. Jeter will be a Hall of Famer on the first ballot, and the percentage of people that vote for him will be off the charts.

But while Jeter was human, maybe even super human at times, Ken Griffey Jr was out of this world. He hit the ball to places where very few men have ever hit the ball. Ken Griffey Jr, more than anybody I've seen except for Barry Bonds, could completely take a game over. Both men grew up around baseball. Both men had superstar fathers. Both men have baseball in their DNA. But while Bonds eventually chose to use drugs that were frowned upon, Griffey Jr did not, and his all out play cut his career short. Griffey dove for fly balls more than any other outfielder I remember. He jumped over walls to bring home runs back. And when he hit the ball, it stayed hit. It didn't matter who was in the outfield. Those balls weren't coming back.

And the whole point I'm trying to make, the only point, is that Derek Jeter was simply not in the same universe as Griffey. Jeter is like Paul Molitor. They have the same games. Molitor's nickname was "the Ignitor". He got the rallies started. So did Jeter. If the Yankees were having a big inning, Jeter was in the middle of the scrum. He has remarkable hand eye coordination. But Griffey was otherworldly. He did things that Jeter could only dream of doing. And it shows.

You seem like a nice guy, Jason. And you know your baseball. But I just can't understand how you can't see the difference in production between these two men.

Nothing Jeter did offensively could ever equal Griffey hitting 630 home runs.

Why, because Ichiro's season didn't end up being the monumental barn burner that you thought it was?

WAR has become a pretty accurate indicator of a player's performance for a season. Do you want to know where Ichiro's 2001 season fell among the greatest individual seasons in Major League history?

110th. There have been 109 individual seasons that were better than Ichiro's 2001 campaign.

Ichiro hit for a really good average. But it's nothing that Tony Gwynn and Wade Boggs didn't do on a semi-consistent basis. Tony Gwynn hit better than .350 seven times. Wade Boggs hit better than .350 five times.

Nothing that Ichiro did in 2001 set a new bar. He hit for a high average, and he had a spectacular number of plate appearances. That is why he had so many hits. I'm not knocking him. That's a lot of hits. But of his 242 hits, 50 were for extra bases. He hit 192 singles.

His 127 runs scored, while quite good, is never going to be a legendary figure. It didn't even lead the league in 2001.

And then there's his 56 stolen bases. Good total, but hardly transcendent. There have been 155 seasons of more than 56 stolen bases.

So again, where did Ichiro have one of the greatest seasons of all time? He hit a crap ton of singles. He stole a good deal of bases. He scored a bunch of runs. He played great defense.

Is that better than Ted Williams 1941 season when he hit .406? What about Joe DiMaggio, same season, when he hit in 56 straight? Better than Miguel Cabrera's Triple Crown last season?

Is anybody 50 years from now going to bring up Ichiro's 2001 season as one of the greatest seasons of all-time? Maybe. Probably not.

So if my post is that absurd to you, maybe you just need to rethink some of your notions about the history of baseball.

I would add that Ichiro was not even the best player on his own team that year and that the tremendous hype surrounding him helped vault him to the MVP award. Bret Boone, IMO, was the best Mariner that year and should have been the MVP. He may have been using PEDs but that was not an issue to MVP voters in 2001.

ichiro hit .350 and had on OBP of .381. That has to be one of the lowest differentials ever. The same year, same team, Olerud and Martinez were higher, at .401 and .423.

Love him or hate him, Arod has to be considered in the top 3 of all-time (ignoring his PED use). He was a machine and if he wouldn't have been injured a lot here over the years and if he didn't test positive for PED's, he could have made a very strong argument as being the best SS of all-time.

I am a Yankees fan, but I do not have Jeter in my top 5. He has been consistent through the multitude of playing years just like Ripken was. The longevity factor has helped increase Ripken's and Jeter's places on top SS lists. Jeter is a top 10 SS though.

Jeter has been a very productive shortstop, and he's been a productive shortstop for a long time. There haven't been a lot of shortstops in the game's history that hit .330 or .340. Jeter could do that for you. He could hit the occasional home run. He could steal the occasional base. It just seemed to me, anyway, that when Jeter was doing these things, it was always at the most critical moment. So while Jeter may not have hit a lot of home runs, I can think of a few that he hit that were absolutely huge, and so important to his team's success.

But one thing that gets overlooked. Jeter had some pretty exceptional talent around him throughout his career. He wasn't winning those games alone. Put it this way. Since 1995, Derek Jeter's first season, through 2014, the New York Yankees have done this:

1,877 wins
1,299 losses
3 ties
.591 winning percentage, or 96 wins a season for 20 years
5 World Series titles

When we're looking at how Derek Jeter has been as a player, let's not forget the absolutely spectacular talent that has surrounded him. To his left, he's had probably the best second baseman in the game, Robinson Cano, since 2005. He's had Alex Rodriguez to his right at third base. He's had talent everywhere. He has been a great player, of course, but he's scored 2,000 runs because he's had some of the biggest bats in the game behind him. He's gotten on base, and ya, he's stolen a few bases. But he's scored a lot of runs, and the Yankees have won a lot of games because they've had a roster filled with stars.

It's actually not. Rob Picciolo, believe it or not, once had a season with a LOWER OBP than batting average. Who cares if it was just 14 games? He was so impressed with that feat he did it again the next year in 87 games. Picciolo walked just 25 times in 1720 PAs.

Here's a great page on this topic:

http://www.captainsblog.info/2012/05...average/15300/