...

Probe
 

Come on Acollector... being a little dramatic arent you ?

Going on about Hitler, stolen cars, criminals, honest government !

Im just saying that lots of collectors at one time of another have done some type of shill bidding

How did a post of mine once cause you to get screwed over by Probstein ?

Come on RunScott..Im just giving my opinion ..no need to start the personal insults.....but really..I dont care...like I said many times...I love posts like this that get hotly contested/ long winded/ nasty/etc.. I find it entertaining

Well done!

I would propose that Rick institute a rule in every one of his listings, that every bidder would agree to when they place a bid, something along the lines of:

No bidder with more than 2 bid retractions in the past 6 months is eligible to bid on this auction. Any bidder who wins an auction and has more than 2 bid retractions in the past 6 months will forfeit the auction. (this is to eliminate last second snipe bids that Rick would be unable to monitor and cancel prior to the end of the auction)

The item could then be re-listed.

Now if Rick is able to determine that the bidder(s) in these situations are shilling for the seller, he should return the card to the consignor and ban the bidder and consignor and refuse to do business with the consignor. Period.

I do not sell on Ebay, so what I propose may not even be possible. I'm pretty sure that sellers are allowed to insert their own binding bidding rules as long as they do not violate current Ebay policies. And I'm not sure how consignment sellers could handle the Ebay fees charged to them after the conclusion of an auction in such a situation. Would Ebay dismiss the fees under this situation since the "winner" violated one of the seller stpulated rules? or not? Since I don't sell I'm not sure of all of this, but its an idea that popped into my head.

I've hired an armed guard to make sure I don't over bid on auctions, I suggest posters here do the same. I can't help myself otherwise.

Get married and you won't need an armed guard to make sure you don't overbid on auctions.

Probstein Mathewson ball auction
 

Regarding the Probstein Mathewson signed ball auction which ended a couple days ago: http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.d...m=370937104344

The ball sold for $8990, solely because the underbidder put in a bid at about $1600 above the third bidder for the ball, three days before the ebay auction ended -- and the underbidder just happens to bid in Probstein's auctions 94% of the time. Curiously, the underbidder's bid of $8890 is almost identical to what the ball sold for in the 2013 REA auction ($8887): http://www.robertedwardauctions.com/...85.html#photos This bid of $8990 was placed a few days before the auction ended, solely to provide a floor/shill bid, presumably to ensure that the owner of the ball didn't lose any money following his purchase of the ball in REA.

I emailed Rick from the Mathewson auction listing and the following dialogue occurred:

1) Rick -- were you the owner of this ball which just sold in your auction?

Response: which ball ?


2) The Mathewson ball.

Response: consignor .....I owned the ruth ball though


3) Would you permit Rob Lifson to answer my question if you are not, in fact, the winner of that Mathewson ball from his auction?

No response


4) So are you saying that you consigned the Mathewson ball but didn't own it? How can you consign something you don't own?

Response: I'm not gonna be online, if something is pressing try me at 973 747 6304 , all our transactions are confidential...both buyers and consignors....


5) Rick,

I'm not asking for you to betray the confidence of a buyer or consignor. I'm simply asking if you bought the Mathewson ball in the REA auction. You denied that you were the owner of the ball but said you were the consignor. To me, if you consigned the ball that means you own it. Again, I don't wish to know who purchased the Mathewson ball in the REA auction unless it's you.

Jeff Lichtman

Response: jeff, your not understanding my emails....we're having email confusion..lets try again....

I bought the matty from REA , sold it privately , and the guy didn't like so it was consigned to us...
I bought the ruth ball from either REA or legendary or huggins, don't recall, and I was the owner who sold it....

the names of all my consignors are private as are the winning bidders....


6) Rick,

Are you aware that the underbidder of your Matty ball auction bids on your auctions 94% of the time? And that the bid he/she put in was almost to the dollar the amount that YOU paid for in the REA auction for that ball? Presuming you didn't sell the ball to him for exactly what you paid for it from REA, don't you find it interesting that the underbidder put in a placeholder bid 3 days before your ebay auction ended which matches what YOU paid for it on REA?

Jeff

Response: I wasn't aware of this...were u the winner of the ball ?


7) You don't know the winner of an auction of yours which ended a couple days ago?

Response: typicallyno
we currently run 20,000 auctions a month...I had 20 staff people here today...I spend the lionshare of my time keeping them busy..

when people email me or call when they see a problem I do act..
the mantle bvg card auction was emailed to me and I cancelled the bids on it....


8) That's wonderful -- but you didn't address what I asked, namely, that fraud obviously occurred in this auction and considering it was a ball which you bought in an REA auction shouldn't something be done about it?

No response


9) So do you think you should void the auction result and let the winner know that he was defrauded the difference between the bids of the second and third bids on the ball? It's fairly obvious that fraud occurred, no?

Response: I'm gonna first contact the consignor and get more info....


**This conversation was two days ago, that's the last I've heard from Rick about this auction.

Those responses from Rick P. are very disconcerting. Feign ignorance, change the subject, indirect answers. It's a big money train and a lot of folks are banking, some are members here. So simple, consign/shill/count profit. I want to be angry, but instead I'm just disappointed.

He will keep ignoring the stuff that shows he may be guilty or makes it clearer that he might not be a good guy. The no response is typical of him because the honest answer might expose him so he won't incriminate himself. The 20 staff comment is trying to make himself look like a big shot and make him sound oh so important and busy. I have seen his "staff" and will elaborate in a few days. That call me you aren't understanding me BS is most likely to buy him some time to come up with a "legitimate" sounding answer or he figures you won't call him. Offering to talk on the phone gives an illusion of "I have nothing to hide". He figures that you most likely won't call him. I wouldn't be surprised if you do call him, that he claims he's too busy to talk or he is driving to get rid of you.

The we run 20,000 a month is for two reasons. The "we" is "I". It's his ID, he is not a company. He is one guy, but saying we makes it sound like a company and people are harder on an individual than a company. The 20,000 auctions is an excuse for "we are just so busy we don't have the time to look at every detail." When you don't have the time to do things right, DON'T DO THEM or hire enough people that can do things right.

"I bought the matty from REA , sold it privately , and the guy didn't like so it was consigned to us" That makes absolutely no sense. If I buy something from someone and don't like it, I ask for a refund. I don't have him consign it to risk it selling for less than what I paid.

I ask, why would a money hungry type that wants every penny he can get (as he appears to be in my opinion) stop shill bidding on his items (assuming he isn't doing it himself in some of them) from others if it has not affected his sales? Obviously an honest person or someone with ethics that isn't a thief or isn't a greedy trash bag would put a stop to it. One bid retraction ban would be what a person with integrity does, but from my experience with Problemstein is that he has no integrity in my opinion.

I'm not at all surprised by this lack of response...we've seen it before...we'll see it again. I certainly appreciate you, Jeff L, for making this effort to help clean up the hobby!

It's a legitimate analogy because you are saying you don't care whom he screws over as long as you don't get screwed over and can benefit from him. I never said it was your post. I said it was posts like yours.



He will never do this because it won't make him money, at least not in the short run.




I'd have a better chance at surviving a gun shot than be nagged to death.

Thanks for posting that conversation Jeff. When this thread was first made, I was in the "I'd maybe bid on a Probstein item after doing some investigation and if it isn't an easy item to acquire elsewhere" camp. Now I'm clearly in the "No way in hell would I ever bid on a Probstein item" camp. There are so many people/auction houses selling pre-war cards so why would I support one that is obviously lacking in the ethics department? Hopefully this thread encourages others to take their money elsewhere because that is the most impactful thing we can do in this situation.

It would be interesting to see an anonymous poll as to whether or not these shilling allegations have had an impact in regards to collectors choosing to bid or not to bid in his auctions.

But what if he has stuff I NEED? Doesn't STUFF trump everything?:confused:(jk)

Sadly, that's how many see it until they get screwed over, and then come back to say Jebus help me!


I don't need anonymity. I will never do business with him again. From my experience with him, all I see is a weasel with no spine that will lie and cheat as much as he can to take what he can. It's safe to say I won't be joining his fan club any time soon.

Yes, David, it does. Except when it doesn't. I will not even consider a Probstein auction now. Unless he has something I really want. Then I will hold my nose and bid. If I refused to do business with every convicted felon, indicted alleged felon, or overall skeevy creep out there I'd never get any new cards. And that won't do. How do I die with the most toys if I don't play the game?

Interesting suggestion about seller-implemented rules. However, I am not sure eBay will allow you to enforce rules that go beyond its own rules.

"Jebus"? Is that the shuttle to Sunday Service?:D

You knows it stranga. Straight form Bug Tussle Tennessee I reckon. Sometimes these sellers make me angrier than a cockroach when the lights are turned on. :D

That's where the Beverly Hillbillies were from :D

lol :d

Similar here LOL! Been running auctions on Ebay since '99 or so. Never even thought of it, and don't really understand the point, though I see the accusation getting thrown around constantly, whether deserved or not.

I'd like to think, the vast majority of sellers out there think the same way and I'm not an anomaly or anything special.

For what it's worth!
 

I have not posted in this thread previously, but for the record I would NOT ever bid in one of Rick's auctions after reading this thread.

I'm sure I may not be the only one who has not commented but made this decision. Perhaps it's because I've become more scrupulous as I've gotten older.

Prob
 

wow, this thread is getting hot...Im starting to get enjoy it.

Look guys, like someone just said..its all about " stuff you need" ..if its "stuff you need" ..all bets are off !..hell some guys will bid on stuff they dont need just to drive up the price, or keep arch enemys from having it...I know a guy who will bid on stuff wildly just for the power rush..and some guys get caught up in that..and then have to reach for that cancelation button !..have they no shame..dont they understand that there are big time nerds out there that cant live without a special item.

Im so upset..I intend to bid on EVERY lot that Probstein has currently running on ebay...just to prove a point.... I will then report back on the % of lots that were mis-represented, or fake, or questionable. Then I will prove once and for all that ....that...that... and then that will be it

Bidding
 

If I see something I want or need, and the seller's feedback looks like he probably has the item and would deliver it, I determine how much I would be willing to pay and place a snipe. Thereafter I do not give it a thought until I get a notice from my snipe service that I won or lost. If I won, I pay by paypal and am done. Win or lose I do not bother to check out the bidding history on the item. If I got it for the price I was willing to pay, I am good.

I think the only thing I have bought from Probstein in the last year was a 1963 Topps Rookie Banquet program. I needed it to complete a run of those programs. I ended up getting it for a lot less than I expected

It's a hobby - I don't need any of this. I would rather miss out on a baseball card than knowingly support someone who runs their business in a manner I find unethical. Just my opinion though.

Chiming in late, but thanks for that nugget of information. Very true.

The police department says thank you for the evidence they needed.


I wish this thread had been up in July before I dealt with this crack bag. I certainly would have been at least hesitant to deal with him, if not completely avoid him. His feedback is extremely misleading. He has a ton of negatives, but he has so many positives that it shows up as 100%.



My opinion is that your opinion is the correct opinion. ;)



Well I be the son of a polecat. You've been lookin the same tv that's been lookin at me. None of that fancy book Lernin' for me. I already know enough guzintas to get by so I enjoy havin that Texas tea..

Perhaps he is just a misguided yoot.:)

Mr. Gambini, did you say yoots??

Kevin,

Please allow me to join the vocal minority, then.

I have not (and have never) shilled an auction. It's just plain wrong.

Best regards,

Eric

I've never shilled, and never will. Have I been shilled? Probably.

I once shilled myself because of that stupid ebay hiding the ID and didn't realize it was my ID. I got me good. Pushed me up $500 to just under my max bid. That will show me to bid early and bid often.

Of course I am joking. Save your sarcastic replies please.

Fortunately you are not representative of this board, on any level.

Would any of the Probstein apologists, the manners police, the blah blah blahzy blah imbeciles care to comment on Rick's explanation of the auction of his Mathewson ball?

I saw that he gave you his phone number pretty early in the conversation, did you call him? To me that's the logical thing to do since there was some disconnect between you two.

If you're still concerned with this maybe you should give him a quick call?

Or am I being unreasonable..

maybe we can get Rick on the chat line?

Sure.

While it certainly doesn't look or sound good and there probably is something wrong here....

Let's face it, you still have nothing which concretely proves something wrong was done. Period.

Add the definitive proof. Let me know when you do that. Until then this thread is just like the rest... Circumstantial and inconclusive.

Kevin

Probe
 

RunScott..I think you enjoy the cat fighting as much as many, never willing to just " let it go"...always have to come back with a comment that borders on disrespectful /mean/ stinging...I think you enjoy it..., I know I do ! LOL

an old broken down lonely man..all he has is his card collection..he used to be a runner..but now time has taken that away from him..there he sit...with computer keyboard courage... giving his angry thoughts..cruel comments, ... ever now and again he will put on his little silky shorts,showing awful weathered legs, ugly veins and all,and he will drive down to the supermarket..pretending he is still who he never was..looking at his ironman wristwatch every two minutes..just waiting for someone to say...Wow do you run ?.... goes home..sits in a darkened room..some meaningless sport game on the TV.... thinking about his baseball cards, how much money they are worth...so sad...Oh so very sad

I spoke to Rick last night. He informed me that he canceled the Mathewson auction -- presumably the winning bidder had no problem with this. He did not offer the winner of the auction the actual price of the ball if the purported shill bid was invalidated. He also banned the underbidder although he had no reason to believe anything untoward had occurred in the auction and did not check to see if there was any connection between the underbidder and consignor. Instead, the banning occurred because the underbidder had bids of 94% in his auction.

Do all kevins live in the land of de nile???

Wow hangman...way to live up to your name!!!

As its been mentioned before, multiple times, one of the benefits of these threads is to point out suspicious activities by consignors/sellers/bidders/etc. and to educate and notify other board members of potentially damaging actions by the parties involved. What the other board members choose to do with this information is their own choice in the end I suppose.

Personally, when it comes to my money and who I choose to do business with, I am the jury, judge and executioner. End of story. I don't operate under the idea that someone is innocent until proven guilty in my personal dealings with others. I operate under the idea that if something seems suspicious to me, then I must be provided with definitive proof that something nefarious did NOT happen before I will reinstate my trust in a company/business/individual.

I understand that you only do class action law and not traditional civil or criminal cases but you do understand this isn't a court of law, correct? That we're not a sitting grand jury examining evidence and sending out subpoenas, right? That all we could have at this point is circumstantial evidence and that all we are trying to establish is that "there probably is something wrong here"? No 'definitive proof' can be established short of a confession or Rick allowing me to see his bidding and consignment records, neither of which will happen. I suspected Rick owned the Mathewson ball which was obviously shilled and Rick claimed he did own it -- before it was sold privately to some unknown buyer who later rejected the ball and supposedly put it back in a Probstein auction. And yet the ball was shilled in this Probstein auction at the price Rick paid for it in REA and not the higher price the unknown buyer got it for from Rick. That's circumstantial evidence enough for me to believe that the auction stinks. Maybe you pretend lawyer types need more definitive proof; I don't.

Not living in denial.

I'm smart enough to know the difference between fact and proof and conclusions and cicumstances.

While your conclusion may be accurate... You do not have any proof to back it up with.

Get something to use to do something about it instead of starting another circumstantial thread that just gets dismissed after "he spoke to Rick"

He spoke to Rick and Rick made it all better.

Lol.

Mark, eloquently put. I think the moral of this and other similar threads is that you can bring the idiot to water but you can't make him drink.

Ok good. You won your case. How many years in monopoly jail are you going to sentence him to?

Kevin

Good job Jeff and Kudos to Rick. I do not believe it would have been appropriate to sell the ball for less than the original hammer price (even with the shill bid). Technically speaking, the shill bidder may have drove away/outbid a legitimate bidder, so we could never know the "true" hammer price.

If Rick wasn't concerned at all about what is occurring on this and similar threads, why do you think he called my office last night and emailed me out of the blue about this auction? Can you possibly be as dumb as you appear?

I'm dumb huh?

Maybe to pacify you? Is it working for you?

If he was why wouldn't he take all of the suggestions being handed out to him?

Maybe do one or two of them with the little click of a check box and 15 seconds it could be done. Surely he has 15 seconds to spare and implement our suggestions.

I suspect you have absolutely nothing to say to that. Right?

Kevin

Well, I don't know if it is completely "out of the blue" if you go on a public forum and very openly accuse him of fraud and complain that he is not getting back to you.

Good to see he followed up.

Perhaps, but none of that makes you any less of an idiot.

Right. He put a bandaid on it for Jeff. Stuck that pacifier right in his mouth. Handled the one issue with eyes on it and said what was needed.

And I'm the dumb one. Lol.

You will keep getting the pacifier until you have something concrete...guy.


Kevin

Kevin, what exactly have you done to help clean up the hobby?

I can't discuss it right now. I have two initiatives.

Once I am done I will post about it.

Kevin

Pacifier getting in the way?

No...discussing it may jeopardize what I'm doing.

I figured that was obvious.

Kevin

Be vewy quiet...

http://www.thestand.org/wp-content/u...r-fudd-shh.jpg

"Bond, James Bond."

These threads turn into a huge waste of time.

There was a thread on how to block viewing of all posts by a particular person.

Can someone please provide the link?

Kevin

Of course you're the dumb one -- is it not clear to you that I don't believe a single word that Rick says? LOL. Christ, you're even dumber than I thought. And considering that I have a track record in this hobby of dealing with fraudsters somehow you can assume that I'm not leaving the situation alone.

Good luck with your "initiatives." LOL. Good God.

maybe one of your initiatives can be how to figure it out.

It Takes Two to Tango
 

but Tag Team Tussles are terrific!:eek:

The third one is to actually block everything you type.

Don't sweat it. I will get it. Later chump.

Kevin

don't waste too much time on it. I'd hate to see your initiatives get slowed down. PS let me know when you can afford the simple auction site software. Putz.

lmao :d

Yea I'm a cop, I'm a damn good cop!

Nice alliteration!

What he said he did and what he actually did may be complete opposites. With the private ebay IDs now, it's virtuously impossible to know what was actually done. For ebay to not want any wrongdoing on their site, they sure do make it easy to be done.

If it smells like crap, I certainly am not going to eat it to find out if it tastes like crap. That circumstantial evidence of the crap may not be good enough for US courts, but it is good enough for my taste buds to avoid it. My (enter any potential buyer's name) court is the only one that matters when a purchase might be made.



Very good point. People seem to forget that this is the court of your own wallet, we are not in a court of the United States, so when there is any doubt of a seller, the monetary risk makes it magnified.


I would like to know how to use it so I can block your posts.

21 posts. Awesome.

You should look it up then or try to figure it out.

It's pretty easy to figure out if you just look.

Kevin

Unlike you I already know how to do it. It was more of a zinger against you. In fact I will do it now. Have a nice life of denial hoodface.

Ok. Keep on posting on these threads guy.

It fits you well.

Kevin

The more you post on Net 54 the less time is spent on your initiatives to ferret out fraud, you moron.

For some reason these threads keep reminding me of the quote.

"Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to post your opinions online and remove all doubt."

- @be L!nc0ln

Always looking to buy: President cards (to complete my set of 16)
NOT looking to buy: Mid-19th century N-type stage actors cards.

Never knew Lincoln was such an avid online poster…learn something new every day. :D

yikes
 

Bidder in a current Rick auction with 33 retractions.

Bid History: Details


Bidding Details

Bidder Information
Bidder: u***l ( 8171Feedback score is 5,000 to 9,999)
Feedback: 100% Positive
Item description: Item Title: 1954 Red Heart Mickey Mantle HOF New York Yankees PSA 8 NM-MT " HIGH END"
Bids on this item: 10
30-Day Summary
Total bids: 1547
Items bid on: 450
Bid activity (%) with this seller: 26% Help
Bid retractions: 1
Bid retractions (6 months): 33

Peter, not to outdo you but check out the bidder that retracted? (The infamous Pank was the winner).

http://tinyurl.com/m3a753z

15 current, 122 total. Obviously a bidder who has not learned how to type. :D

Rick says this happens in everyone's auctions.

It happens in everyone's auctions that aren't real, or honest.
I don't bother bidding on any item/s anymore on ebay if there are bidder/s with bid retractions.