Do you have a scan of the original COA from PSA? That looks like a copy of one. Very possible someone took the original, made a copy of it and put a photo of their fake Mantle Autograph in the place of the real one on the PSA letter. I'v seen that happen before on eBay. Do you have a scan of that photo with the PSA sticker? The photo you posted is obviously diff than the one on the COA.

yes very weird. the photo in the COA is totally different than the photo shown.

I stand by my original comment on the photo. Having had both players under contract, having seen thousands of each of their signatures that I KNOW are good, My opinion (and I use the word opinion only because I have to, but to me its a fact) is on that particular photo, the one that I commented on (the only one I commented on) was never held or signed by EITHER Mantle or Martin.
I will not reply to additional 'what do you think of this' posted in this thread. I just wanted to point out that despite posts above, I stand by what I said, and I am highly confident that in 2013 if presented to PSA/DNA it would not pass their authentication.

Ken, I am so sure your are correct that I have offered to bet anyone that it would not pass quick opinion. No takers so far. I am still waiting for the world renowned authenticator to step up and agree to the bet.:D

You once again are nothing more then a joke in this industry. You have now decided that 2002 certificate's do not count, yet you put up some type of nonsense authentication you state came from me from 2002 and that one counts?
I never said that it was authentic and I do not believe any of them are authentic. Yet you can clearly see that they are authenticated by both Spence and Grad and they were sold by major auction houses. I guess you do not want to send your money to the St. Jude's Hospital. Now you want a PSA quick opinion for something they have already be warned about (LOL)
You can say what ever you wish and play what ever games you plan on playing but unfortunately you seemed to have lost that bet and may soon have to admit that I am one of the only true autograph examiners and authenticators that have any credentials and credibility.

These are 2 different images, the COA Letter is for the photograph that is shown on the letter and the other just the sticker and number is shown. the both of the images shown have been examined and authenticatted by both Grad and Spence as ( Shelly said I guess before they know what they were doing)? Both can be looked up on the PSA/DNA database and there are more but that is not what this is all about.
If you are interested or would like to see some additional photographs please contact me at www.paasaa.com
Thanks
Mike Frost

gotcha, my bad...the consensus is they're both bad and were certed by psa/dna.

My bet was that the item that had your cert was bad. You then produce a Psa cert that made people belive it was authentic. I bet you it was not. Now you are saying I am correct. Not only that you knew they where bad all the time.
Please explain why you then sold the item under your cert with the psa wording. Or is this another forged cert.
You work for the government under cover. You have said in the same thread that Chris is great and Chris is terrible. You say you work for Topps .You say you are know the world around as great authenticator. The only thing you will be remembered for on this site is that you are the Walter Middy of 54
You owe the money. The bet was clear. In fact three people agreed that they where forgerys and you said nothing untill you knew you lost.
Just so everyone knows I sent it for quick opinon and here is what they said.


Response: "Likely Not Genuine"

Here are the details of your Request:

Comments:
Request ID: 100437
Request By: 10/25/2013

Thank you choosing the QuickOpinion service!

I feel bad that there are people like you that will always spin the arguement to try and make themselevs look good. You should go back to your friends at Autograph Planet. Oh I am sorry I forgot they threw you out of there.:(


Just to make another point. You want to bet how many people would trust me saying if a Mantle is authentic or not vs. you on this site?

There are a ton of autograph collectors on Net54,.

I wonder how many of them use P.A.A.S. to authenticate their autographs?

[QUOTE=shelly;1198853]My bet was that the item that had your cert was bad. You then produce a Psa cert that made people belive it was authentic. I bet you it was not. Now you are saying I am correct. Not only that you knew they where bad all the time.
Please explain why you then sold the item under your cert with the psa wording. Or is this another forged cert.
You work for the government under cover. You have said in the same thread that Chris is great and Chris is terrible. You say you work for Topps .You say you are know the world around as great authenticator. The only thing you will be remembered for on this site is that you are the Walter Middy of 54
You owe the money. The bet was clear. In fact three people agreed that they where forgerys and you said nothing untill you knew you lost.

Shelly, as most know you are a pathological liar.. From top to bottom of this discussion. I am sorry I believe you have no idea you are even lying, changing statements, adding words and just being the typical con man you are credited with being.
I know both you and Chris do not want me on Net 54 because, you both have convinced some that you know what you are saying. I never would have certed those photographs and never said they were authentic. Just was playing the game as Westsiders said "Way to reel them in...hook, line, and sinker "
Were did I sell that item in question? Where is that Cert with the psa wording from? Were did I say I worked under cover? When was I ever on Autograph Planet? When did they threw me off?
In one paragraph alone there is 5 lies out of your mouth.
You also said "You have authenticated more bad Mantles outside of the Donald and Morales, Where are all these bad certed Mantles? I can show you 100's of bad certed Mantles from the top autograph authenticators in the world and yet you lie and have the nerve to make this statement. You also said I sell Hot Dogs at Kiosc. Once again you are lying.
It is very embarrassing that I am even in a discussion with you, but I thought it was time you were put back in you place. Stop all your lies and pipe dreams and go back to removing the Jose Canseco cards out of the wax packs.

Mike youare a sick man. Go back to Todd he will hold your hand and tell you everying is good.
Oh by the way.I was gonna let this go, but how about an answer on this one too. You said Collectibles of the stars didn’t have LOAs in 1997 and that the 1997 LOA for the Mantle posted by Chris was a forgery. So, how about this 1997 Cheetah the Chimp LOA from Collectibles of the Stars? Is this a forgery ? Its dated 1997. And you say the Cheetah signing was some joke but did you know the Chimp wasn’t Cheetah and was never in a Tarzan movie and that anyone who bought your Cheetah signed photos got ripped off with the signature of some unknown chimp? The real Cheetah was dead for years, read the Washington Post. Help us on this one. Those are your signatures on the LOA, or are those forgeries too? You’re so well respected people are forging your name as much as Mantle I guess.
Attachment 119258
By the way is that your signiture on top or was that forged as well. Hold on a second. It was the CIA at the door telling me to stop.:eek:

Has anyone ever seen worse spelling than that of Shelly and Mike? Cheetah the Chimp spells better.

Are you aware of the fact that Shelly has an affliction called dyslexia?

So tell us, what does your comment have anything to do with this thread?

Also, I didn't see you post anything constructive here, Steve; just like Westsiders with his "hook, line and sinker" comment.

Steve, just to let you know it is called Shelleez that has now been accepted on this site for a long time. I see things backwards and spell things the way I think they should be. I also think that I said what I wanted but the words are missing. Spell check does not help. Like Chris said do you have any thing to add expcept being insulting. Hope this never happens to anyone in your faimly.:)
The one thing I do know because of this. Bad autographs. How about you?

Being compared to a Chimp is so disgusting. I have no idea who you are but I will say that your comments do not belong here or anywhere else. I have never said this before but you should be suspended. :mad:

This does not really look like the spelling or grammar of a rocket scientist
ss
Steve S.
St.eve S@lem Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Baltimore


I think it's good. Looks like 1970s style signature. Is very close to 2 that I have, one of which was signed in-person in mid-70's. Am curious what you guys don't like about it?

Steve, that was really uncalled for and added zero to this thread.
If comments are going to be made by members on this thread, at least let them be relevant to the topic.
It has long been known by most here that Shelly has dyslexia.
Let us try to keep the posts here relevant to the topics at hand.

I stand behind my comment of hook, line and sinker...as Mike has undoubtedly "baited" you guys (Chris and Shelly) into this back and forth. And while I agree that it wasn't necessarily a constructive comment, I don't understand the comparison to the ridiculous comment made by "SS" (I also thanked Shelly, outside of this link, for sharing his knowledge with newer guys like me).

And Mike, please don't misinterpret my comment as being in any way, shape, or form in support of your position. Your touting of PAAS is laughable....and your latest personal attacks against Shelly are gross. It would be the equivalent of people attacking your personal appearance in the photos that you've posted. Such comments just don't belong here. Best of luck.

Sco.tt Rom.ero

Again, I am not convinced the PSA letter that Mike posted is real. Looks like a copy to me and anyone could doctor that up. I'd like to see a color scan of the original PSA letter.

+1. That was really uncalled for Steve.

Joed25,
The post was not meant to be a knock on PSA/DNA or JSA. I have nothing at all against them, and was just trying to prove a point to answer a few questions.
The COA is 100% authentic and there has been no doctoring of photos nor Certs.
I have a large file of over 6000 Mickey Mantle certed items by third party authenticators, auction houses and dealers. It is something in most cases I would never share or use with the public.
If you would like a clear e-mail of the actual COA for you own peace of mind, please contact me via my website www.paasaa.com and I will sent it to you.
I feel that this Thread has gotten out of hand and is going all over the place. Sorry

Scott, Mike didn't "bait" either Shelly or myself. There was no "bait."

Both sets of Mantle/Martin sigs are bad.

This thread hasn't gotten out of hand at all.

Out of hand as far as the name calling and personal attacks.

Let's take a quick look at the Wiki page for Cheeta, which contains a large list of all the different chimps associated with the Character.

From looking through the list, I would assume THIS is the one who was used for that signing.

"Cheetah-Mike (also known as Org), a male chimpanzee owned by Suncoast Primate Sanctuary after being donated from Noell's Chimp Farm in Palm Harbor, FL. Alleged to have been born about 1931 (claimed age in February 2008 was 77), to have been acquired from the estate of Johnny Weissmuller in 1957, and to have been "one of the original 'Cheetahs' from Johnny Weissmuller's Tarzan movies." It has been speculated that this chimp, if he indeed has any connection to Weissmuller, may actually have come from a Florida tourist attraction the actor once launched that included chimps, rather than having appeared in any of his Tarzan films. According to journalist Andrew Woods, this Cheeta was also known as Org. Died in Palm Harbor, Florida, of kidney failure on December 24, 2011."

No I am sorry that is a different Chimpanzee. The Cheeta that my partner Michael Wehrmann had the private signing with belong to Dan Westfall who also signed the COA. The Cheeta that hand signed the autographed photographs was living in Palm Springs, Calif and not in Palm Harbor Florida. The Chimp that signed the COA and the photos was Jiggs IV.

Cheeta/Jiggs IV as a Celebrity
In 1991, whatever the truth of his origins and prior life, Cheeta/Jiggs IV was given by Gentry to his distant cousin Don Westfall, the current caretaker. Gentry died two years later. In Westfall's care, Cheeta lived at a primate sanctuary called Creative Habitats and Enrichment for Endangered and Threatened Apes (or CHEETA) in Palm Springs, California, where he reportedly watched television, made abstract paintings which were sold to benefit primate-related charities, and often watched "his" old films with his grandson, Jeeter. He also leafed through books and "played" the piano.[39][40]

His birthdays, calculated from the date of his supposed 1932 arrival in the United States, were regularly celebrated. In 2006, coinciding with his "74th" birthday, Cheeta received an award for his supposed film career from the International Film Festival of Peniscola Comedy. Later that year, the 4 October 2006, edition of the Palm Springs newspaper, The Desert Sun, reported that he had received his first-ever visit from famed primatologist Jane Goodall the previous day. His "75th" birthday was covered by National Geographic.[39][40] His "76th" birthday was celebrated on 9 April 2008, at his "Casa de Cheeta" in Palm Springs at an event hosted by Dan Westfall and Diane Weissmuller, (Johnny Weissmuller, Jr.'s widow). The press and many Palm Springs celebrities attended.

On the basis of his apparently fictitious history, Cheeta was cited by the Guinness Book of World Records as the world's oldest non-human primate.[39]

A literary agent was hired on his behalf for his ghost-written autobiography, Me Cheeta, published in the U.K. in October 2008.[38] The American edition was published on March 3, 2009.

Here's an update to Cheeta's unusual story. Several years ago, Dan started working with a writer on Cheeta's biography. Dan wanted someone to tell the story of Cheeta's life as the world's oldest chimpanzee and as one of the original chimpanzees appearing in the old Tarzan movies. By December 2007, the writer's research had unexpectedly revealed that our Cheeta is unlikely to be as old as we'd thought, although he is clearly old. It is also difficult to determine which movies, if any, our Cheeta may have been in.
It appears that the facts of our Cheeta's past will almost certainly remain a Hollywood mystery.

Sorry Michael. I copied and pasted the wrong bio from the page. My apologies..

Apology
 

Sincere apology to Shelly and Mike. Merely my inappropriate attempt to lighten the atmosphere. Please accept my sincere apology.

Steve

Thank you and accepted by me. I am sorry as well..

Well done Steve.

[QUOTE=ss;1199079]Sincere apology to Shelly and Mike. Merely my inappropriate attempt to lighten the atmosphere. Please accept my sincere apology.

Steve[/QUOTE

Accepted:)

I have discussed Mantle signatures with Shelly many times, and he's always impressed me with his knowledge. He's made a few mistakes, but he also accepts that publicly and moves on. Being willing to learn from your mistakes at his age is a rarity. Much more common with 'experts' in this hobby to have their knowledge frozen in place by their massive egos.

I don't know Mike Frost, but I'm sort of surprised at some of his analyses of Mantle autographs in this thread. I say "sort of surprised" because I know that having an eye for autographs involves a talent that some people have, and some people don't. If you don't have it, you can be personal friends with someone for a lifetime, and look at a million of their signatures, and you will still make more mistakes than someone who has a better eye than you.

I also don't get why PSA and JSA keep getting thrown into the argument - everyone in this thread who has ever given an opinion on autographs knows more than either of them. I have no reason to believe that Mike Frost is any worse than either of those companies.

The bottom line is that the OP posted a Mickey Mantle autographed baseball (with the inscription The Commerce Comet) that he wanted opinions on.

1. It is a forgery.

2. It was penned by the same person (yes, I know the person's name) who penned the Mickey Mantle forgeries shown in the American Memorabilia catalog listing.

3. The majority of Mickey Mantle baseballs with those types of inscriptions are forgeries.

[QUOTE=Runscott;1199126]I have discussed Mantle signatures with Shelly many times, and he's always impressed me with his knowledge. He's made a few mistakes, but he also accepts that publicly and moves on. Being willing to learn from your mistakes at his age is a rarity. Much more common with 'experts' in this hobby to have their knowledge frozen in place by their massive egos.

I don't know Mike Frost, but I'm sort of surprised at some of his analyses of Mantle autographs in this thread. I say "sort of surprised"

Thank you for adding to the thread, can I ask you which item in this thread surprised you. There is not on Mickey Mantle item shown in this discussion that I have added an opinion on.
Please let me know which item you maybe refering to?
Thanks
Mike Frost

I agree and have been saying this for over 15 years.

That's a matter of opinion, Scott.

You just seem to keep throwing these little digs. I just do not get it?

Yes you do.

I really do not get it. I feel you are negaitive about P.A.A.S. because of some type of involvement you may have with another authenticator or authentication company.

Chris Williams has no affiliation with any authenticator.
That is a certainty

Chris's only concern is not to let garbage hit the streets. I think that you have done enough to prove that you are no expert. I would trust Chris over you in one second. :D

I was referring more to your lack of opinion or not knowing one way or the other, when others in the thread had definite opinions - I should probably have said "your response" rather than "your opinion".

It doesn't really matter - my post was more in support of Shelly than anything else. I have read the entire thread - every post - and I'm fairly certain nothing is going to be added that will change my thoughts regarding the expertise of anyone mentioned.

Yes, Mantle did pen a few unique inscriptions, but the majority of them are forgeries penned by the group.

OK I just spent 30 minutes reading the entire thread and have one question:

Why is the group or the forger's names being held back?

Chris always does that. States that he knows who the individual and/or group is that does a particular style of autograph, but never states who it is. Take that for what it's worth, without showing any proof of anything.

Ever been sued Dave?
I have been sued twice by guys on the other side of the autograph business for talking about them to others.
And even though both suits were dismissed, my lawyers still had to get paid many thousands of dollars.
When you want to cover Chris' legal fees I am sure he would be happy to give you the names of some of these people.

Richard,

I personally don't care if he knows or not, neither do I care to know. Makes no difference in the end.

A question was asked, I answered.

Then don't say anything at all. But this "look at how much I know, but I'm not gonna share" is jive.

Thank you, Rich.

When you take the time to do the research I done over the course of a decade, Mr. Atkatz, then you can decide what you want to do with that information.

I also have contacts and resources who confide in me a wide range of information.

I have never, and will never, break a trust and confidence.

Then don't say anything at all, Chris. You certainly won't break a confidence by keeping your mouth shut.
Why do you tell us you know who the forger is, if you won't say anything else? Because we're all supposed to be so impressed with your secret knowledge?
Trying to show off how much you know, while providing no information besides "I'm so knowledgeable," is, as I said, jive.

Then jive it is.

We agree!!! :)

It just seems hypocritical to me. This thread is basically publicly bashing the character of a man while hiding the bashing of others.

I guess you choose your slander battles in the autograph trade.

Joel, what man am I bashing?

Your not questioning Mr. Frost's expertise, business practices or partnerships?

When it comes to the others everyone becomes cryptic.



Have no horse in this race. Just seemed like a pile on of one member and everyone was afraid to name others.

I believe one person is accusing another of having a bad eye for autographs. He has not stated that this person is knowingly committing a wrongful act. Publicly calling someone a forger is quite different. This thread is beyond beating a dead horse.

I always have.

I know who signed all of these autographs, I know what type of pen was used and I know where this exact pen is.

I know Chris' sources and I know Mike's accomplices. I know exactly what Chris knows (and maybe a little more).

I will not tell you how I know this or what exactly I know, but believe me, I know it. The truth is certainly out there, and I know where it is.

Maybe if you all spend the time I have spent learning these things you too will know, but I doubt it. I know way too much.

Ah the joys of autograph collecting. Some people know where certain bad product might be coming from, but it's difficult to get anything going with law enforcement. We know the items are bad, but unless there is direct proof of the guy doing the forging, it's pretty rare for an operation to go down. There are some modern forgery rings going on right now on ebay using cheap China balls. The same sellers selling them and when one name gets banned another one pops up.

...

Shhh......

http://godmenandmoney.com/wp-content...The-Others.jpg

+1 lol!