Gotta bump it first.

I doubt he will post again as his response was lackluster. Although he is logged in and reading this thread as I type. Probably raised more questions than before. Here are a few ?'s I'd be interested to know:

1) The current business relationship between Rick and Joe?
2) The reason he left SGC as a grader?
3) Why he bid on cards that he won previously from Rick in a new higher grade?
4) Curious as hell to see what SGC deems on another look at the 34 Gehrig?

In relation to question 3:

http://tinyurl.com/n26j9a3



http://tinyurl.com/n72kbpg

And I did find it funny he changed his ebay ID when things were heating up, probably just pure coincidence :rolleyes:

lawyers
 

How come everybody on this board, except me, has a lawyer? I do have a dude that delivers my milk every Tuesday.

Cheers,
Geno

To Geno
 

I'm not a lawyer but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

I don't know...from the "Lebron James" type title...to the lame, BS explanation that doesn't explain anything...I find Joe's explanation to be lacking any real substance...and as stated he failed to address any legitimate concerns!

I vote for reinstatement of the original title ASAP!

Ditto. And, if every one else is required to have their first and last name on posts, he should have it on his...

Nice. Even more apropos: "It is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing."

Something is rotten in the state of Denmark.

Just now reading the opening post, in my opinion based on the scan, the Art Shell PSA 10 was clearly overgraded based on the bottom left corner.

What's bothersome is that a person who claims to have been a professional grader should have clearly seen upon inspection with the training of a professional grader that this card was overgraded. Rather than correct the oversight with PSA, he chose to make a huge profit on the card.

As stated by many others, there were other salient issues, arguably more serious than bumps on crackouts that were never addressed, which I find rather disturbing.



http://i.ebayimg.com/t/1973-Topps-Fo...LLw~~60_57.JPG

He does (now) as I just added it as I said I would.

As far as changing anything else or stepping in, I always prefer not to. A forum member can generally edit their responses if they want to. It's part of the forum and the way it's always been.

Ummm, no you did not hold up your end of the deal. You only mentioned the questionable bumps. You didn't address the card doctoring, other than to deny it. The '34 Gehrig you bought clearly had the pencil mark erased. Are you telling the board all of our eyes are deceiving us? Come on! Other cards you bought seem to have been trimmed and/or had stray print marks removed. You didn't address the obvious shill bidding and you didn't address many of the questions that other members had. You made some generic statement that doesn't mean squat.

Done :D

Perfect. It's there for eternity (or until he cuts another deal)...:)...

Beautiful! He fell for it hook, line, and sinker...Rookie move "Joey"...

I'm half asleep, so please bear with me, but I felt compelled to see where this discussion has gone in the last few hours.

Have we really gotten to the point where we can take the same card, submit it to PSA three times (without making a single alteration, or even a pencil mark erasure), and get three vastly different grades?

I understand no matter how stringent the guidelines are for grading at a given tpg, there's always going to be a human element. Mistakes are going to be made, especially considering the sheer volume of cards being handled and graded. But what does it say about the quality of PSA's service when three different individuals (hypothetically speaking), all of them well educated, and with thousands of hours of practical experience in their chosen field, could have such varied opinions on the same piece? PSA is supposed to be the industry leader. There's only so many variables involved in grading.

To use an analogy, when you have a prize fight, you'll have three different judges sitting ring side. A boxing match can go up to twelve rounds, three minutes each. Even with all that's going on, the judges at the end of the match will present their cards, and while there will be some variance in scores, they are usually pretty damned close.

There's no flurry of activity in grading a card. These graders are looking at one card. They will have magnification to see every detail. They'll have ideal lighting to view the card. So how could three so called "experts" have such wildly different opinions? How the hell would that possible? Do the graders not have sufficient time to examine the card as needed? I thought, too, that each card was viewed by multiple graders. If one grader is off in their opinion, wouldn't the second opinion normalize the skewed marks?

If I'm a grader, and somebody sends me a card that is going to sell for five figures, I'm going to take the time necessary to critique every element of the card accurately, knowing full well that the amount of money changing hands is directly tied to my efforts.

This is not right. It just isn't. This doesn't pass the smell test.

Can you imagine your wife asking "did you cheat on me?" and answering:
To your surprise I do everything I can to maintain the integrity of marriage, I do not condone cheating nor do I promote it. I do not host parties for swingers, I don't participate in porn sites nor do I condone prostitution. I do not do anything that sacrifices the original integrity of our vows...all a bunch of BS, just like this response. He isn't denying erasing anything or removing any marks, as long he doesn't "power erase" cards, whatever that means.

Power erasing is actually erasing large portions of the border of a picture to improve the centering, such as on a 57 Topps, an art form mastered by certain card doctors in the 90s. I think PSA became hip to it so not sure it is still going on.

Oops. Nevermind

Good point on the "power erase" observations. Beside what Peter just wrote, he didn't deny using an ordinary eraser by hand to remove that "4" on the Gehrig card.

Peter, Peter, cardboard dealer
Had a card that was a tweener
Cracked it out and did resend
Two grades higher??? Nuf ced!

I actually posted my contact info for someone once because they said they were going to sue for Liable. Think the guy was from down South somewhere:D

awesome research BTW

I can relate. I once got threatened with deformation of character.

I hate it when someone threatens to deform my character. I have enough deformities anyway.

Well, Howe McCormick may have been guilty of deformation of your cardboard, Ed, but I thought we were talking about the reformation of cardboard in this instance.

He's liable to get sued for libel.

You mean like what Charles Schultz did to Charlie Brown's head?

David--the three bids put in on the sale of the hockey card had no impact on the final price. There were three different bidders quite a bit above his highest bid. The lot would have sold for the same price whether he bid or not. Also, how do you know who the bought and submitted the three bids on the hockey card? It is the same person, but how from the bidding records do you know who it is?

Ah, but the problem is with the intent, not the actual result. The INTENT was to influence the final price. THAT is the problem here. Doesn't matter whether or not he actually influenced it or not.

Should someone NOT be charged for ATTEMPTED robbery or bribery provided it didn't work?

Sorry, but I disagree. Perhaps his bid had no impact on the final price of this particular auction. But doing so is criminal in my mind. Why not start with a higher amount or a reserve? Isn't a well know auctioneer getting jail time for this very thing?

I understand your point that the bids had no impact on the final price, but regardless, it's still shill bidding. Please keep in mind, this is one card of many he has shilled.

This is done through feedback. I usually look at the feedback the seller leaves for the buyer, because the buyers usually don't leave feedback in these cases (less chance of being caught). To show you how it works, let's use the Gehrig that Panky doctored...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/281122751526...1#ht_23wt_1200

1.) Open the auction and click on the bid history.
2.) It shows 9***8 (408) as the winner. That never changes from auction to auction, only the number in parenthesis (the feedback) will change.
3.) Now open the sellers feedback and click on "Feedback left for others."
4.) Scroll down until you find the bidder with 408 feedback.
5.) You'll see that it's member cgseller89.
6.) Once you know the username, it's easy to track from auction to auction

I don't even think one can produce a fact-based argument saying that the shill bids did not influence the final price. For example, what if both competing buyers had not seen any other competition other than themselves? Isn't it possible that they may have both entered a lower snipe? Also, though unlikely, there is a possibility that any specific buyer could include a filter in their search that does not include items below a certain price threshold. The shill bids revealed more of what the "3rd place" buyer was willing to pay, so obviously this added an element of demand that didn't in fact exist. All of these perspectives, however, are more for conversation than for their connection to the fact that it is illegal. Perhaps Joe is avoiding more of the illegality of it by consigning to Probstein!

Thanks David. I also agree that shilling is shilling.

1970 Hank Aaron PSA 8.5 (Centered/High End)
BOUGHT @ $222

http://i.imgur.com/EGb72Tu.jpg

1970 Topps #500 Hank Aaron HOF Atlanta Braves PSA 9 MINT NONE HIGHER CENTERED
Bumped & SOLD @ $1055

Bid took it from $166-$300

http://i.imgur.com/MS1Nr6z.jpg

you dont need anymore evidence than that!

SCHILLER......does SGC know he has SGC listed under his jobs in facebook?
not good publicity for them!!!

anyone know the law in regards to schilling an auction? if its over $500 is it a felony?

David, I believe you have stated the case several times over with solid evidence each time.

Thank you,
Brent Ingr@m

lol. :d

Who the hell is buying these cards? $800+ increase for a 1/2 grade bump on a common card.

Makes me wonder why nobody is pointing their fingers at guys who are just way to happy to part ways with their money over miniscule adjustments in grade.

It's almost like they've created their own hell for charlatans like this to thrive.

An Ode
 

People that are super rich want to have the very best and cost is not a factor.

Frank your name has to be there. No Anonymous

Doctor Frank...now you just have to put it to music!!!! Go get the Wurlitzer out of the closet and get busy!!!!

response
 

I need to hear Joey's opinion on this matter.

To.ny Bivi.ano

I agree. They're part of the registry, and they're trying to raise their score.

I don't know if this has been mentioned, but I think the biggest bump or drop by crossing over cards, is going from Authentic to a Numeric Grade and vice versa.

I've had the former happen several times concerning Diamond Stars and Goudeys.

Wow go on a short vacation for a few days and miss all this.

10,000 + views in a little over 24 hours. Wow.

To the OP:

I truly hope that you don't go through with contacting a lawyer and attempting to sue any members here for nothing more than voicing their opinions, most of which they have backed up with some very convicting evidence. Now, I assume that if you were to file a lawsuit that it would be a defamation lawsuit. Allow me to explain something about that lawsuit, not only is it one of the hardest lawsuits to prove, but it almost always cost the person who files the lawsuit more than it costs the person he is filing it again.

Defamation, despite what many people think, is not just using somebody's name is a bad/wrong manner without their consent or permission. It also can't be files in cases of opinions...for example, if I were to say Leon was a no-good, lying, cheating, wife-stealing, nerd, (Just an example Leon, not my actual opinions on you haha!) he couldn't file a defamation lawsuit against me as those statements are entirely my opinions and I am entitles to whatever opinion I want to have. Now if I were to make a statement such as, Leon stole three-thousand dollars from Wells Fargo...he is defiantly not to be trusted (wants again, just an example), then he would have a legit case unless I had concrete proof to prove me statement. However, even in that case, it would be a hard lawsuit to win as Leon would have to prove, without a shadow of a doubt, that not only was my statement false...but that is also hurt his reputation, self-esteem, business, and in some way effected his life negatively. Now, I do not believe you are a public figure (I could be wrong as I personally don't know you), and I'm going to assume you are a private individual which does give you one advantage if you were to file a defamation lawsuit. You would not have to prove that the person who defamed you acted with malice, whereas a public official would have to. However, with that being said, I do not advise you to think that it means it would be easy for you to file a defamation lawsuit as it absolutely does not.

So with all that being said, you sir do not have any case here at all based on what I have seen. You can contact your lawyer, however I would advise against it as you would be wasting your own time and your own money. I am not going to judge whether or not you are in the wrong here, but I do, once again, advise that you take no action against any member here on this forum. Also, if you think you have a different lawsuit, you are misguided in your thinking. The only lawsuit you could even attempt to claim, based on your complaints, is a defamation lawsuit and once again, it would be near impossible for you to walk away from that with a win.

Now, to back up all that I have said, here is the condensed version of the legal definition of Defamation:

Defamation:
Any intentional false communication, either written or spoken, that harms a person's reputation; decreases the respect, regard, or confidence in which a person is held; or induces disparaging, hostile, or disagreeable opinions or feelings against a person.

Defamation may be a criminal or civil charge. It encompasses both written statements, known as libel, and spoken statements, called slander.

The probability that a plaintiff will recover damages in a defamation suit depends largely on whether the plaintiff is a public or private figure in the eyes of the law. The public figure law of defamation was first delineated in new york times v. sullivan, 376 U.S. 254, 84 S. Ct. 710, 11 L. Ed. 2d 686 (1964). In Sullivan, the plaintiff, a police official, claimed that false allegations about him appeared in the New York Times, and sued the newspaper for libel. The Supreme Court balanced the plaintiff's interest in preserving his reputation against the public's interest in freedom of expression in the area of political debate. It held that a public official alleging libel must prove actual malice in order to recover damages. The Court declared that the First Amendment protects open and robust debate on public issues even when such debate includes "vehement, caustic, unpleasantly sharp attacks on government and public officials." A public official or other plaintiff who has voluntarily assumed a position in the public eye must prove that defamatory statements were made with knowledge that they were false or with reckless disregard of whether they were false.

Where the plaintiff in a defamation action is a private citizen who is not in the public eye, the law extends a lesser degree of constitutional protection to defamatory statements. Public figures voluntarily place themselves in a position that invites close scrutiny, whereas private citizens who have not entered public life do not relinquish their interest in protecting their reputation. In addition, public figures have greater access to the means to publicly counteract false statements about them. For these reasons, a private citizen's reputation and privacy interests tend to outweigh free speech considerations and deserve greater protection from the courts. (See Gertz v. Robert Welch, Inc., 418 U.S. 323, 94 S. Ct. 2997, 41 L. Ed. 2d 789 [1974]).

Distinguishing between public and private figures for the purposes of defamation law is sometimes difficult. For an individual to be considered a public figure in all situations, the person's name must be so familiar as to be a household word—for example, Michael Jordan. Because most people do not fit into that category of notoriety, the Court recognized the limited-purpose public figure, who is voluntarily injected into a public controversy and becomes a public figure for a limited range of issues. Limited-purpose public figures, like public figures, have at least temporary access to the means to counteract false statements about them. They also voluntarily place themselves in the public eye and consequently relinquish some of their privacy rights. For these reasons, false statements about limited-purpose public figures that relate to the public controversies in which those figures are involved are not considered defamatory unless they meet the actual-malice test set forth in Sullivan.

Determining who is a limited-purpose public figure can also be problematic. In Time, Inc. v. Firestone, 424 U.S. 448, 96 S. Ct. 958, 47 L. Ed. 2d 154 (1976), the Court held that the plaintiff, a prominent socialite involved in a scandalous Divorce, was not a public figure because her divorce was not a public controversy and because she had not voluntarily involved herself in a public controversy. The Court recognized that the divorce was newsworthy, but drew a distinction between matters of public interest and matters of public controversy. In Hutchinson v. Proxmire, 443 U.S. 111, 99 S. Ct. 2675, 61 L. Ed. 2d 411 (1979), the Court determined that a scientist whose federally supported research was ridiculed as wasteful by Senator William Proxmire was not a limited-purpose public figure because he had not sought public scrutiny in order to influence others on a matter of public controversy, and was not otherwise well-known.

If that is a bit too hard for you to understand, here is a simpler definition with less detail.

Defamation (of character)
n. the act of making untrue statements about another which damages his/her reputation. If the defamatory statement is printed or broadcast over the media it is libel and, if only oral, it is slander. Public figures, including officeholders and candidates have to show that the defamation was made with malicious intent and was not just fair comment. Damages for slander may be limited to actual (special) damages unless there is malice. Some statements such as an accusation of having committed a crime, having a feared disease, or being unable to perform one's occupation are called libel per se or slander and can more easily lead to large money awards in court and even punitive damage recovery by the person harmed. Most states provide for a demand for a printed retraction of defamation and only allow a lawsuit if there is no such admission of error.

Once again, to the OP, I make no judgement on whether or not you have disgraced this hobby, editing and trimming cards, erasing pencil marks, schilling, etc. Just giving you legal advice.

I would also like to apologize to Leon, as well as to the other forum members, for the rather long, drawn out post, but I felt the need to post this as the OP's threat to contact an attorney worried me a bit. Nobody here wants to waste their time and money dealing with a pointless lawsuit that would benefit neither party involved.

UOFLfan7- I don't mind if you say all that stuff but you need to have your full first and last name in the post. (or edit out your comments)....thanks

and I should add that there are 2-3 other board members that will have their names put in their posts in this thread, by tomorrow morning, if they don't do it themselves. Otherwise they can edit their comments out. No harm no foul....

Lol. I didn't know proof "beyond a shadow of a doubt" governed in defamation cases. Damn educational forum you have here, Leon.

One of my favorite Hitchcock movies. Probably top 3.

No extra charge Peter. You get all of that and more!!

To the OPs statement, it left a lot to be desired.

It is an admission of guilt, at this point.

Kevin

Though not my favorite Hitchcock film, I always thought The Rope was terrific and overlooked with regard to his many other masterpieces. If only Joe would offer an additional response to tighten how apropos that movie title would be for this situation...

Since there is not going to be another response from this person maybe now it is time to start taking some action against what has happened?

How much is an advertising spot on this forum? Can we put up a banner ad?

A simple banner saying "Josepth Pankiewicz alters cards and resubmits them for higher grades" would be sufficient.

Kevin

Great idea. I'll chip in...

Don't get any ideas :)....that banner ad won't make it up on this board. I understand the sentiment though.

why wouldn't you put the banner ad up?

kevin

What is the percentage of times that someone who threatens to sue actually follows through on it??? My guess is 0.3 percent of the time. Threats rarely are followed through on. For example "I'm gonna kick your ass." when said in a bar never happens. If you were gonna kick someone's ass or sue them you would want the element of surprise which is why a threat to do either is pretty much a promise you won't do either, ither, neither, nither.

It's just something I wouldn't do. Kind of like having a poll to see if someone should be banned or not, it will never happen. Some things are just better left alone..and a very negative banner is one I won't want. We can talk and debate but it won't happen on this board. And also, generally speaking when we get all of these great suggestions on how the board should be run, they go in one ear....and eventually out the other. It's been going ok for the last 12 yrs the way it is....hopefully the next 12 will be as good.

He did confirm that his name was Joe.

We are only at 13,000 views.

I love this thread!! It has such a Lebron James feel to it!

Re-reading the OP, here is something else that I find rather perplexing:

"Rick Probstein deserves an apology from whoever accused Rick of being in cahoots with me for me to buy an undergraded card and resell it through him after regrading".

Why would anyone have to apologize to Rick if the OP was doing nothing wrong in the first place?:confused:

Done

Sure, I understand. We can accomplish the same thing for free by constantly bumping the original post so it stays near the top.

Haha, it really does!

Also has the feel of highschool! So much gossip and rumors!

Money, Money, Moneeeey.