I can't disagree with a single thing you've said, Mark. And I think what everybody else has said is also spot on. To be honest, I'm just exhausted by this whole thing. Maybe I'm not thinking clearly. I know he did something wrong. I want to know specifically what that was. No more speculation, no more "well, he admitted to it but wasn't specific". Enough! A criminal has to allocute before accepting a plea bargain. The fans that have been through the ringer with this whole thing deserve the truth.

I guess I just want him to stop screwing around, and tell us what really happened. No more filtering your words through some lawyer's office at $500 an hour. Tell us what you took. Tell us why you did it. Be honest, for God's sake. My opinion of his has been damaged, but if I'm ever going to forgive the guy, he needs to come clean.

Sorry, but that seems like a real stretch. Not saying you didn't believe he was using well before all this, but that reasoning is pretty "loose" to say the least. My guess is when this is all over, his eyes will look much the same as before.

I guess Reche Caldwell, and any other big/wide eyed athletes are on the juice too?

Attachment 107619

That's spooky, Todd. I made my prior post before reading anything on the next page, including your post.

By the time these players do get caught, they've secured their million. A suspension is just a slap on the wrist. They might lose some endorsements, but by then, they've got more money than they should ever need.

MLB wants to rid the sport of these steroids? Instead of suspending a player for 50 or 100 games, threaten to ban them for life unless they publicly allocute to what they used. Some players won't care. But the shame that comes with having to stand in front of the press, with all the cameras, and telling the world what you've done...that could be a powerful deterrent. It would sure knock these players down a few notches.

Elevated testosterone alone is not an indication of drug use. Some people have medical conditions that naturally produce high levels of testosterone. Hyperthyroidism, for one. Now of course, if an athlete has one of these conditions, you'd think they would report it to MLB. Failing to do so would not be a sufficient reason for having a suspension overturned.

It is a stretch. I have very slightly recessed sockets because of my osteogenesis imperfecta. I also have blue-tinted sclera, and I certainly have never used any performance enhancing drugs.

Show me a story where these reporters have stated factually that Braun was using some special blend of testosterone from Tony Bosch. Because when I Google Ryan Braun Tony Bosch and special blend, the only result I see that has a "special blend", or a "special testosterone blend" is your post. I don't see one more article anywhere in the first three pages. If this were a fact, this would be all over the internet.

So, please, link me to even one story where a reporter has gone on the record stating "it is fact that Bosh supplied Braun with a special blend of testosterone".

I think it was a special blend of Kool Aid. Only sold in Wisconsin.

blue tints
 

Glad you pointed all that out Bill, or no telling what any of us may have thought if we ever meet you in person :)

Drat, I used to drink Kool Aid when I lived in Wisconsin. I better not apply for a job with Major League Baseball. ol' Bud will have me thrown off the premises. http://www.postcount.net/forum/images/smilies/VN/18.gif

No problem, Al. :) It's not very noticeable, as it's not pronounced. If I look worried, be assured it's because I'm nervous about something, and not because I'm shooting up testosterone, lol. It's usually noticeable in people with the more severe forms of OI. But the blue sclera always draws a crowd when I'm in a hospital or doctor's office. Usually a bunch of people will come in, and look in my eyes. I'm cool with it, as my condition is pretty rare, and it helps them learn. I like to tell them I'm a mutant, as neither of my parents carried the genetic marker. I should be in the next X-Men movie. Maybe they could hook me up with Jennifer Lawrence :D

I'm from Wisconsin and grew up a Brewers fan. I just know that when there's latest serious PED rumor (that later turns out to be true) the home town fans go into a state of self denial, or a state of denying the obvious, about their hometown player and swear on a stack of bible's he's innocent and wrongly accused. Happened with Giants fans Barry Bonds, happened Cardinals fans and McGwire and happened with Brewers fans and Braun. If Bonds played with the A's, those same Giants fans would have said he was a cheater. If Braun played for the Boston Red Sox, the same Brewers fans would have said he was guilty. That's the way it invariably works.

Mike and mike
 

Check out TJ QUINN'S podcast with mike and mike...I think you will find its eye opening Bill.....TJ is an investigative reporter who has been following Braun for a year or so...he said they uncovered an EXTENSIVE DOPING PROGRAM by BRAUN mainly involving a special testosterone blend made by Bosch ...the evidence was so overwhelming that Braun ran away yesterday without one public appearance....

I know who TJ Quinn is.

It might come out, but I'm just going by what I'm seeing online. Nothing as of yet. If it sheds some light on what was really going on, though, that's a good thing. Let it all come out, in my opinion, and let's see some humility from Braun for once.

TQ has been speaking just today in regards to this mess...a lot of his words have not been put into written form yet so they could show up in a Search...

He also appeared on Espn this morning and stated why I said....EXTENSIVE TESTOSTERONE DOPING PROGRM THAT LASTED YEARS.... He compared that to Pettitte who he said only used once to get back from injury quicker....

As A Giants fan, I know that I and most of my friends were not in any state of denial over Bonds or BALCO... Nor were we about Marvin Benard, Armando Rios and FP Santangelo. What drove me nuts is that it seemed like almost all focus was on a half dozen or fewer players, when seemingly the majority of the league was using.

Clearly Bonds was the best hitter of the bunch and was approaching MLB's most hallowed record.. But I thought then and still think now, the bigger problem lies with fringe players. Guys who feel compelled to use because "the other guy is, and he'll take my roster spot". There are many many more of those players (hundreds to thousands) affected by steroids than there are upper tier. Chasing the stars makes headlines, and needs to be done.. But something needs to be done to protect those 24th-25th men, or 4A type players that are forced to make those decisions early on. SI did a great artcicle on these types of player about a year ago.

Re- Bonds, I believe he used, but I also believe what he did was amazing. I accept it may have been sacreligious to most of the MLB fan base, but remember he was hitting 450 bombs off juiced pitchers (see Eric Gagne) throwing triple digits by virtue of that juice. Though very tough to quantify, it seems overall fastball MPH has gone down in the past few years. Steroids or not, the baseball seen in the 90's to early 2000's was possibly the fastest, strongest, most powerful game we'll ever see played. That said, I'm a far bigger fan of the pitching and defense dominated style of play exhibited by the 2010 and 2012 Giants.:D

Not justifying Bonds, McGwire (etc), but this is a fact that many seem to forget or choose to ignore completely. Pitchers were juicing as well. If you remove Bonds records, how many strikeouts do you remove from Clemens career totals (etc, etc, etc)?

He said he made some mistakes, how much more humble could you be?
Maybe he could go on Oprah. This isn't about humility, this is about getting caught with your pants down and how long it will take people to forget what your a** looks like.

If the union and league were serious about cleaning up the game the remedy for a positive would include granting the team the option of voiding the balance of the player's contract and lifetime random WADA-style testing for the balance of the player's time in MLB. A suspension doesn't mean squat to a guy like Braun who can strategize to lessen the impact of the suspension and remain on a massive long-term contract. Heck, he can use the rest of the season to rest up, train and cycle steroid regimens [I kid the Braunmeister] in preparation for next year.

Stiff penalties won't stop it. I doubt much will.

A few quotes from another sport, one that began testing in the 60's, and has fairly stiff penalties. And STILL has people removed from its premier event every year.

"The top riders are obliged to be fresh each time and they can't do that without stimulants. Nobody could or ever will be able to do that because there are no such things as supermen. Doping is necessary in cycling."

Rik van Steenbergen, a top pro in the 40s and 50s

"My closets now will be empty of syringes and prohibited substances. The majority of racers resort to drug products, and those who refuse to admit it are liars."

Dietrich Thurau, many pro wins in 70s and 80s

"I do not wish to hear spoken the word doping. Rather, one must say 'treating yourself,' and speak of treatments that are not appropriate for ordinary mortals. You cannot compete in the Tour de France on mineral water alone."

Jacques Anquetil, Won TDF five times in 50s and 60s

"In 1924, the legendary Pelissier brothers-noted as much for their brutal attacks on the road as their criticism of Tour organizers-abandoned the race over what they considered to be an unfair ruling. Pélissier, Francis and another rider, Maurice Ville, abandoned the Tour at Coutances in 1924 after Desgrange had not let Pélissier to take off a jersey as the sun came up. They were met in the station café by the journalist Albert Londres, who normally wrote about social and international affairs but was following the Tour for Le Petit Parisien. Londres' piece, reproduced largely as a dialogue, appeared under the headline Les Forçats de la Route.
"You wouldn't believe that all this is about nothing more than a few jerseys. This morning, in Cherbourg, a race official came up to me and without a word, he pulled up my jersey to check that I'm not wearing two. What would you say if I pulled open your waistcoat to see if your shirt was clean? That's the way these people behave and I won't stand for it. That's what this is all about." "But what if you were wearing two jerseys?" "That's the point. If I want to, I can wear 15. What I can't do is start with two and finish with only one." "Why not?" "Because that's the rule. We don't only have to work like donkeys, we have to freeze or suffocate as well. Apparently that's an important part of the sport. So I went off to find Desgrange. 'I can't throw my jersey on the road, then?' 'No,' he said, 'you can't throw away anything provided by the organisation.' 'But this isn't the organisation's—it's mine.' "'I don't conduct arguments in the street,' he said. 'OK,' I said, 'if you're not prepared to talk about it in the street, I'm going back to bed.' "'We'll sort it all out in Brest', he said. It will definitely be sorted out in Brest, I said, because I'm quitting. And I did."
Pélissier went to his brother, Francis, told him his decision and encouraged him to do the same. Francis said that suited him because he had a bad stomach and no enthusiasm for racing. Ville said he hadn't been part of the strike but that the other two had picked him up along the road. He was too tired to go on, he said.
"You have no idea what the Tour de France is,' Henri said. "It's a calvary. And what's more, the way to the cross only had 14 stations — we've got 15.[7] We suffer on the road. But do you want to see how we keep going? Wait...' From his bag he takes a phial. "That, that's cocaine for our eyes and chloroform for our gums..." "Here," said Ville, tipping out the contents of his bag, "horse liniment to keep my knees warm. And pills? You want to see the pills?" They got out three boxes apiece. "In short," said Francis, "we run on dynamite.' Henri takes up the story. "You ever seen the baths at the finish? It's worth buying a ticket. You go in plastered with mud and you come out as white as a sheet. We're drained all the time by diarrhoea. Have a look at the water. We can't sleep at night. We're twitching as if we've got St Vitus's Dance. You see my shoelaces? They're leather, as hard as nails, but they're always breaking. So imagine what happens to our skin. And our toenails. I've lost six. They fall off a bit at a time all through the stage. They wouldn't treat mules the way we're treated. We're not weaklings, but my God, they treat us so brutally. And if I so much as stick a newspaper under my jersey at the start, they check to see it's still there at the finish. One day they'll start putting lumps of lead in our pocket because God made men too light."
Londres had the best colour piece he'd ever written, although Francis claimed afterwards they'd taken advantage of his gullibility by exaggerating.*

*It should be noted that the Pellissiers were know for having an odd sense of humor, some think the entire thing was a put -on.


The earliest case in cycling was 1886.

Steve B

So now Ryan Braun and Barry Bonds have failed the same number of drug tests. By your logic Bonds is even more innocent than Braun because he never admitted to anything.:rolleyes:

[QUOTE=the 'stache;1161727]I'm very disappointed that Ryan used something he should not have, and whatever the suspension is (65 games, the remainder of the season, iirc), it is completely justified. What Ryan has done is an embarrassment to the game I love, the franchise I have followed since childhood, and it bothers me on a personal level. I hate that he did something against the rules, and that he has lied about it. But, I also hope at some point the truth comes out, because right now, speculation is running rampant. Media outlets are still running stories still filled with a lot of half-truths and conjecture. Things like "Braun has admitted to using PED". Nowhere has he done this. He did not admit to using PED in the statement he issued today. In fact, it was reported several times after the story first broke that he was going to be suspended not for PED, but for a banned substance, which could be one of a hundred different things.

The "his MVP should be taken away" talk is ridiculous. The MVP is a regular season award, and there is no proof whatsoever that Braun used anything before the postseason of 2011. He passed every single drug test while in the minor leagues, and every test administered from 2007 through the 2011 regular season. As for his "getting off on a technicality", no, he didn't. There are carefully established protocols for handling biological specimens used in the drug testing program, and if they are not followed, it is proper to throw that sample out, and not employ any of the testing results in furthering punitive action. Ryan Braun's urine sample was taken home by the collector, and placed in a Tupperware container in his basement for two days when it was clear there were several Fed Ex locations open between the collector's home and Miller Park (including at least one that took shipments 24 hours a day). Dino Laurenzi did not follow procedure. There is no debating this. Once it was determined that proper handling requirements had not been followed, the sample should have been destroyed. Period. Any test results from the sample are in essence fruit from the poisonous tree.

I have felt from the beginning that there was a strong possibility Ryan did not use a performance enhancer, but something that would help heal the calf muscle injury he'd been suffering with for much of the 2011 season's second half. By the letter of the drug policy agreed upon by MLB and the MLBPA, it wouldn't matter, as it's still breaking the rules, but I could at least understand that, if not condone it.

Right now, I am angry, and disappointed. He could, of course, be guilty of everything he's been accused of. But absent the facts (facts like the written opinion of independent arbiter Shyam Sad), we really don't know everything that happened. He might have been cheating all along, or he might have taken something to heal, not expecting to get tested before the post season. Who knows. But this talk of Ryan Braun being a "scum bag" is a little over the top. I am sure every single one of us have done something we wish we could go back and do differently. I know I have. But Braun is not some low life. He did something stupid, for which he should absolutely serve his suspension. But human beings make mistakes, and if he asks for forgiveness, and truly regrets what he did, I for one will forgive him, and cheer for him again. I hope he's learned from his mistake. More than anything, I am glad that this is now over.[/QUOTE]

I think voided contracts will stop it
Of course the owners would have the stones to do it.

There need to be conditions to make them voidable. Owners cannot just go around deciding they dont want to pay anymore.

I laughed when he said I made a mistake. No a mistake happens once or twice and you learn from it what he did over a course of a couple years is considered a habit not a mistake. douche bag

Again,
Voiding contracts for PED use might be problematic. The athlete can then declare an addiction which is a protected class and cannot be fired under the ADA as they are not "at will" employees and if they seek treatment...lawyers help me out here...

Many of the contracts now employed by the MLB teams and the CBA do allow the void of contracts due to moral issues including lying which is rather easy to prove because if you are using a banned substance when you negotiated (or re-negotiated) your contract, you were not bargaining in good faith.

It is very complicated and I am just a teacher but I do have some familiarity with some of the cases here and know a bunch about ADA, Hippa, and CBAs.

Joshua

IMO, Braun maybe the only suspension out of this fracas. It is tough to believe that MLB would want the PR nightmare of spreading out these less than favorable announcements of these image shattering PED suspensions...if anything, they would want to make all the suspension announcements at one time in order to be minimize the PR nightmare/fallout.

Ironically, they even announced Braun's suspension on the same day that England's newest Prince was born(an easily predictable event). While Braun's suspension is quite news worthy (for all of the wrong reasons), the story was completely minimized by the birth of the Prince. This is likely just want MLB wanted...it appears to be no coincidence that MLB waited for a busy news day where the Braun story could be buried by another huge (worldwide) media event.

Three of the names mentioned with this scandal included Braun, Cabrera, and Colon. All three have failed PED tests, while only the latter two have served 50 game suspensions. Likely, MLB did not further penalize either of these two as they had already served 50 gamers. IMO, without negative test results for the other players linked to the scandal, MLB will be hardpressed to prove anything about these players alleged use of PEDs or involvement with Biogenesis.

Braun was simply lowhanging fruit for MLB because he did have a failed PED test (that likely linked him to Biogensis) as evidence and had not served a suspension.

Dont forget about Afraud.....you don't think he really has a hurt quad ? Yanks dont want him and would love his contract to be voided...

He's about to get a lifetime ban.....they will announce that when the prince's name is revealed..

It has been a few years since I did employment law but here is my 2 cents. Frequently endorsements contains moral clauses. You could include that but it seems problematic. I think something a bit safer would be to in lude a clause that makes the contract voidable or reducable at the option of the club if you have a positive test.

I don't think an addiction qualifies as a protected class, does it? I could be wrong. Over the years, I've seen several people that have lost their job due to failing a drug test. If an employer can fire you for a failed drug test, why can't a team owner?

.

While they're getting better, MLB should make it a no nonsense, no tolerance policy. Get caught and you'll be banned for life from baseball, banned from the Hall of Fame, banned from attending a game, you'll have all of your awards and titles removed, and your contract instantly is revoked. Heck, throw in a rule that states you have to pay a $10 million fine as well for tarnishing the game's reputation.

I'm tired of these cheaters ruining baseball. Have we not heard enough about PEDs? Didn't Bonds and McGuire ruin baseball enough by breaking coveted records only by cheating? Now we have another round of big name players getting caught. They'll NEVER learn unless getting caught equates to a lifetime ban.

I guess nobody read that post I spent some time on:(

Basically, Some drug tests are prone to positives from things besides cheating.

So an automatic lifetime ban is not warranted. Even the WADA - A bunch of complete hardcases when it comes to doping- recognize mitigating factors and often use reduced bans for negligent use.

Lifetime bans WILL NOT STOP DOPING.

In cycling doping is common, even with a 2 year ban for a first offence and an insanely stringent testing plan. Pro riders need to file a whereabouts form months ahead of time for the offseason so the testers can find them. Missing a test is a positive Being seen by certain doctors is a positive.

And the riders still take stuff.

EPO thickens the blood. For a person fit enough to have a resting heartrate around 40 and also usually a large heart, that means a huge risk of the blood pooling in the heart and clotting, leading to strokes that are almost always fatal. A number of young riders died unexpectedly at absurdly young ages. Insanely fit guys that are 22-23 don't normall just die.

That's right- EPO CAN BE FATAL. That's as serious a lifetime ban as you can think of, and people still doped with it and still do.

Steve B

I understand that levels could be inconsistent, but when you find a synthetic testosterone in a urine sample I don't see how lab error could come into play regardless of how much synthetic testosterone was detected. If it's detected at all that's cheating.

What prince are you talking about? I don't read the rags for that stuff... It's sad that in many parts of the US, the birth of the prince was diminished by the real news about Braun's suspension. Holy COW!!!! :eek:

Any time I start to feel swindled over all the vacations we provide for ALL of our Presidents I think of the saps that have to fund the monarchy.

Steve, it's been said that as long as there is the incentive to cheat, the cheaters will always stay ahead of the testing methods. We may just have to realize that there is no way to ever completely clean up baseball. If they were able to reduce drug usage, the players would find another edge. I guess it's human nature. It doesn't make things any easier. I'd love to know that everybody was on an even playing field. But it sounds like a dream at this point unfortunately.

Steve, it's been said that as long as there is the incentive to cheat, the cheaters will always stay ahead of the testing methods. We may just have to realize that there is no way to ever completely clean up baseball. If they were able to reduce drug usage, the players would find another edge. I guess it's human nature. It doesn't make things any easier. I'd love to know that everybody was on an even playing field. But it sounds like a dream at this point unfortunately.

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/brewe...216852651.html

Just an article.

That was pretty much my point. There will always be a way to get an edge. some legal, some not.

Many things currently banned were ok at one time, blood doping was controversial in the 80's and is banned now. (Train at altitude, have blood taken while it's rich in red cells, then just prior to competition have that blood put back in. - Instant improvement in oxygen capacity) That was relatively safe, EPO does the same thing but isn't.

The 1880's case in cycling involved a mix of cocaine, caffeine and strychnine. It apparently was neither unusual or illegal at the time.

In the 30's many athletes smoked, holding the belief that it would open up the lungs.

It's simply not stoppable no matter what penalty is involved.

That's not to say there shouldn't be penalties, WADA typically issues a 2 year suspension for the first offense.

Now if people want to retroactively take away awards and records......
Illegal substances are banned right?
And Alcohol was illegal from 1920-1933.
So I'm thinking a ton of records need to be reassessed.

Welcome our new HR record holders! Roger Connor and Gavvy Cravath. (Ok, maybe Gherig instead of Connor)

Steve B
(My edge in softball was being a swing for the fences pull hitter in BP, and a singles hitter to all fields in the game. I think it was legal, and worked great till people caught on to it.)

Comments from Zack Greinke on Ryan Braun this week as reported by Dylan Hernandez of the LA Times...

"The main thing is, yeah, he lied to us. He forced us to lie for him, threw people under the bus in order to help himself out and didn't care, blamed others for his mistakes and it’s just a lot of things you don’t expect from people...Everything was so convincing. He had people to blame. He seemed like a really good guy. He was a good teammate at the time. You don’t know the guys that he was pinning it on. I'm not positive, but I think everyone 100% believed him at the time. Especially the next year, he looked just as good as the year before. His numbers his whole career, Hall of Fame numbers. How could you not believe him? He was so convincing...Not even talking about the player. It’s just the person. Just the fact that he was willing to use anyone that got in his path. The closer you were to him, the more he would use you. It's just disappointing that a human being could be like that."

The players and the Players Union are finally distancing themselves from those who would cheat by using PEDs.