|
1 Attachment(s)
I agree with much that has been said...mickey was more dominant when healthy...and did have how many world series rings? 7 or 8?...but Mays had a longer...more fruitful career numberswise!
|
Saw them both play and hard to say
Both great players, but Mays did it much longer, Mantle was and is more of a legend based on yankee status. Had I had to choose one in their prime I would take Mantle. Of course Mays stayed great into his late 30's, Mantle lost his skills at 34 or so.
|
I don't really have a dog in this hunt, but I recently learned of Mantle's medical condition that was discovered in high school. He was playing football when he got kicked in the shin. If it weren't for the newly available antibiotic penicillin, his leg would have been amputated. Osteomyelitis is a bone disease that he struggled with his entire career. In those days, he self medicated with booze (it was that, or morphine). Not trying to glorify him over Mays (and definitely not his drinking), but they were both truly great. I feel this is important information about the Mick that I have not seen anyone else bring up.
I hit a triple once. I felt pretty good about that. |
1 Attachment(s)
Quote:
|
Sports are full of the "what if" arguments, but because of WHAT Mickey accomplished w/ the bad health he had from Day One to the end of his career, it just doesn't apply here.
It's a "given" that he would have overshadowed Mays in just about every category had he had the health that Aaron, Mays, Musial, Banks, Kaline, et al. were blessed with because of what he DID do for 18 yrs. (Another example where the "what if" doesn't apply is the career of Ted Williams and the 5 yrs lost while in service. Because of what he DID do from beginning to end, you can safely add figures for those 5 yrs and know it would have happened.) Mickey over Mays and maybe the most electrifying player ever! |
Quote:
How about looking at their 162 game averages? They are virtually deadlocked in this regard, with numbers so similar it is almost eerie-- except Mantle has a pretty substantial lead in OBP, BB, OPS(+). |
Quote:
HR R RBI AVE. SB OBP SLUG 40 118 109 .318 22 .392 .605 -- Mays 40 119 101 .314 14 .445 .616 -- Mantle You can say Mantle had a slight edge because he got on base more often, but his peak is not "notably better" (responding to quote that's quoted in above post)... and Mays did more once he got on base, averaging 8 more steals per year. Just for fun, if you count an SB as a total base (a steal is just as valuable as a double), it would raise his OPS by more than 10 points. Then shift to defense and take a look at outfield assists during their respective peak years. Mantle had highs of 11 and 10 assists, which is respectable, but Mays had highs of 23, 17, 15, 14, 13, 12 and 11 during his peak seasons. His 5th tool definitely came in handy... and I'm guessing saved several runs. I think had Mays played in 12 WS, he might have compiled more respectable postseason numbers. However, during his peak years the NL was absolutely LOADED. The Giants were always good, but had to content yearly with the Dodgers, Cards, Braves among others, while the Yankees were unparallelled in the AL during Mantle's prime. As is, Mays played in 4 series and batted .247... as compared to Mantle's .257 (give me Ruth or Reggie over both of them:D). Regardless it is a very very close call. |
Longevity as well as Excellence gets the nod!
Excellence and longevity wins for me! If I were a club owner or general manager, I'd take the guy who was outstanding for the longest period. In this debate, it would clearly be Willie Mays. In another posting, Ted Williams (over Joe DiMaggio).
|
Mick put more fans in the seats, I think. I'll go with Mick.
|
Quote:
|
Unfortunately for my hero, Mays wins by statistics... Still think Mantle is better
WILLIE MAYS
Hall Of Fame StatisticsPlayer rank in (·) Black Ink Batting - 57 (21), Average HOFer ≈ 27 Gray Ink Batting - 337 (8), Average HOFer ≈ 144 Hall of Fame Monitor Batting - 376 (5), Likely HOFer ≈ 100 Hall of Fame Standards Batting - 76 (3), Average HOFer ≈ 50 JAWS Center Field (1st), 156.1 career WAR/73.6 7yr-peak WAR/114.8 JAWS Average HOF CF (out of 18) = 70.5 career WAR/44.1 7yr-peak WAR/57.3 JAWS VS. MICKEY MANTLE Hall Of Fame StatisticsPlayer rank in (·) Black Ink Batting - 62 (15), Average HOFer ≈ 27 Gray Ink Batting - 272 (17), Average HOFer ≈ 144 Hall of Fame Monitor Batting - 300 (15), Likely HOFer ≈ 100 Hall of Fame Standards Batting - 65 (22), Average HOFer ≈ 50 JAWS Center Field (4th), 109.7 career WAR/64.8 7yr-peak WAR/87.2 JAWS Average HOF CF (out of 18) = 70.5 career WAR/44.1 7yr-peak WAR/57.3 JAWS (JAWS is what I go off of) |
Mickey mantle was one of the fastest players to ever play major league baseball.
|
Mays and it's not all that close. His WARP # is so high because he was hitting like a demon against National League pitching during the 1960's.
|
|
Quote:
I think it is also silly that the author conveniently choses the 9 seasons Mantle was at his "physical peak" for comparison with Mays. Unfortunately those 9 seasons happen to exclude Mays' 1965 MVP season. This was possibly his best year ever, one in which he hit 52 HRs in a very tough HR ballpark, against guys like Drysdale/Koufax/Gibson/Bunning/etc. Seems like a pretty skewed comparison when you exclude a players' best year. It also starts in 1954, basically Mays' 2nd season (following nearly 2 years military service). Mays did win the MVP and a WS in his 2nd full season, so it clearly didn't take him long to acclimate to the ML and become a top 3-5 player. I suspect however that the author chose these years not simply because both players were at their "physical peak", but mostly because they are clearly the years when Mantle was at peak production. If "physical peak" is the key, then why not start right in 1951 before Mantle's first major knee injury in that year's WS? Why exclude Mantle's healthy 1951/1952/1953 seasons? They were respectable seasons and he got better each year, eventually progressing into player he'd become. Probably because Mantle didn't begin producing at an MVP caliber until 1955. Per my earlier post, if you want to compare their peak production, just take Mantle's 1955-1962 and Mays' 1954-1965 average seasons. They're nearly dead on, Mantle beats him in OPS.. Mays steals more bases and does a whole lot more in CF. Don't get me wrong, I love Mantle. My dad grew up in Oklahoma, watched him play minor league ball and from the time I was about 6, told me stories about about how amazing an athlete he was before his knees went on him. I also think at peak production, he compares well with Mays... but this article uses very one sided tactics to make its point. |
Mays.
|
If the question is who had the better stats at the end of the day, then yes Mays wins hands down. If, however, you're looking for the player you'd want on your team, then it's Mantle all the way. Johnny Blanchard once said, and I'll paraphrase, "you knew you could never be as good as him, but brother, he made you want to go out and try". I've never heard anyone say that of Mays.
|
I wanna see Mays bat lefthanded.
|
Quote:
|
Hands down Mays was a better player and excelled for a much longer time then Mantle. He had 5 tool skills and hit for power and average. Mantle was a stud in his own right and could hit the ball a ton. Mays was quicker, the better fielder and had greater career longevity. Mantle had the health and drinking problems the latter of which was his own doing. So many "what-ifs" unfortunately for his career.
In terms of who I would rather have on my team it would have to be the Mick, great character, very personable and was just an all around great dude. New York fans loved him like a god. |
Willie, Mickey, or the Duke ?
That is an age old question as to who was the better ballplayer. As a an avid BB fan since 1947, I have been fortunate to see all three of them play
from their rookie year to their retirement. As a Yankees fan, obviously I favor Mickey. In retrospect, all three were great in their inimitable way. However, for sheer drama, Mantle leads the pack. Events like seeing the Mick hitting a 565-foot HR that cleared the CF wall at old Griffith Stadium is incomparable. Or, seeing Mickey hit a Grand-Slam in the 1953 World Series to beat the Dodgers is something the other two guys never did. Or, when Mickey ran down Gil Hodges' drive to the Monuments in deep left-center field of Yankee Stadium in the 5th game of the 1956 World Series to preserve Don Larsen's Perfect game. I leave you guys with this question...... Whose "footsteps" did Willie or the Duke replace ? Mickey stepped into the footsteps of a "LEGEND"....and, trust me that is one of the toughest things in BB to do and to succeed ! ! There is only one other ballplayer (since WWII) that has accomplished that fete (excuse the pun).....Can you name him ? ? TED Z __________________________________________________ ______________________ LOOKING FOR these T206 guys to complete my AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 sub-set AMES....CAMNITZ....CRAWFORD (bat)....DOYLE (port)....JORDAN (bat)....MARQUARD McGRAW (port-cap).....McQUILLAN (bat).....TINKER (bat off).....WILTSE (port-cap) |
Yaz?
|
Yes, it's Yaz.
I could be wrong; but, I think Yaz and Mickey are the only guys to replace "LEGENDS" in BB and succeed to the extent that they did. TED Z |
The area where Mays wins the argument is his defense. Otherwise, if we're talking offensive production, the "clearly Mays was better" argument is specious at best. Not so fast.
Consider the 162 game averages for their careers: Mays .302 AVG, 36 HR, 103 RBI, .384 OBP, .557 SLG, .941 OPS, OPS+ 156 Mantle .298, 36 HR, 102 RBI, .421 OBP, .557 SLG, .977 OPS, OPS+ 172 Mantle won three MVP Awards Mays won two Mantle won the 1956 Triple Crown. Mays never led the league in RBI, so he never won the Triple Crown Mantle, though he played four fewer seasons, won more home run titles, four to three Each player won the batting title once Mays led his league in runs scored twice. Mantle five times Mays walked over 100 times in a seasons once, in 1971 when he led the league. Mantle walked over 100 times in a season on ten separate occasions, leading his league five times. Conversely, Mays never led the league in strike outs, and only struck out 100 or more in a seasons once. Mantle struck out over 100 eight times, leading the league in whiffs five times. Mays led his league in OPS + six times. Mantle led in OPS+ eight times. Though Mays hit more career home runs, he averaged a homer every 16.48 at bats. Mantle averaged a home run every 15.11 at bats. When their OPS is adjusted by the ballparks they played in, Mantle clearly comes out on top. Mays was the far better base stealer, and there's no comparison. But oddly enough, Mantle was the more successful base stealer by the percentages. Mays stole 338 bases in 441 tries (76.64%). Mantle stole 153 bases in 191 attempts (80.10%). The one thing to keep in mind about Mantle is that he tore his knee up as a rookie tripping over a sprinkler head in the 1951 World Series. He was never the same after that. When he came into the league, Mantle was the fastest man in the league bar none. In a foot race, he'd have left Willie Mays in the dust. That affected his base stealing, as well as his defense. Now, I can't hold that against Willie Mays. There's something to be said about staying relatively healthy, and playing longer. But Mantle's knee injury was not due to negligence on his part. His late-night carousing had nothing to do with that injury, at least. If I were forced to pick one player of the two, I'd pick Mantle by the slimmest of margins. In his prime, he was the better player. He was not as decorated in the field, but Mantle managed to hit 536 home runs with injuries that would have kept most players off the field. How he managed to do that is a question that will float around in the back of my head until the day they bury me. |
Quote:
Can You still Start the Poll Option? I would really Like to See who the Crowd will Roar Louder for! May a NeW Thread!? |
Quote:
|
Mickey, Willie, and the Duke
Quote:
Probably, the most tremendous HR hit by Mickey occurred 50 years ago (next month) at Yankee Stadium. In the 11th inning vs the Kansas City A's, Mick blasted a HR that hit the RF facade 102 feet above the field. The point of impact was 363 feet from Home Plate. Some witnesses claimed the trajectory of the ball was still rising upon impact. Others said it had reached it's apex. In any event, had this drive cleared the Stadium's roof, it was projected that it would have traveled 600+ feet. I have the May 23rd 1963 New York News front page depiction of this event....but, it is somewhere in my archives and I have not yet found it. Perhaps some one on this forum has the picture of this blast (or a link to it). Their personalities at signing events............ ............................ FRIENDLY .................................................. SOUR-PUSS .............................................. A REAL GENTLEMAN http://i1255.photobucket.com/albums/...psfaba34d7.jpg TED Z __________________________________________________ ______________________ LOOKING FOR these T206 guys to complete my AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 sub-set AMES....CAMNITZ....CRAWFORD (bat)....DOYLE (port)....JORDAN (bat)....MARQUARD McGRAW (port-cap).....McQUILLAN (bat).....TINKER (bat off).....WILTSE (port-cap) |
|
Another way to parse the issue is to ask who you would sign to a long-term contract as a free agent.
And WTF: http://photos.imageevent.com/exhibit...7%20Mantle.jpg http://photos.imageevent.com/exhibit...pps%20Mays.jpg |
Quote:
|
Quote:
Thanks for the link, Jake I've read thru all 100+ posts in this thread. Lots, and lots of numbers. However Jake, crunching all these stats cannot really tell the story of these two great players, as anyone who actually saw them play can. I was very fortunate as a kid, growing up near New York City, during the late 1940's and the decade of the 1950's when the Yankees, Dodgers, and Giants dominated the BB scene. Furthermore, when you reach my age, your memory starts regressing back to your youth....and, most of those great BB years from my youth are very clear in my mind. http://i1255.photobucket.com/albums/...psa57f3cbd.jpg TED Z __________________________________________________ ______________________ LOOKING FOR these T206 guys to complete my AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 sub-set AMES....CAMNITZ....CRAWFORD (bat)....DOYLE (port)....JORDAN (bat)....MARQUARD McGRAW (port-cap).....McQUILLAN (bat).....TINKER (bat off).....WILTSE (port-cap) |
| All times are GMT -6. The time now is 09:32 PM. |