shelly, the buyer accepted it as 1934, if it wasn't, there doesnt seem to be a way to know 10000%. either way it doesnt prove or disprove the autograph.

#1 rule for authenticators is make sure the item being signed was available during the lifetime of the signer, it was.

Excellent detective work, Lance and Dave!

Please also note the following facts and observations:

1) The 1932 Tigers ticket is from the LEFT side of the ticket, not the right side. Tigers tickets from every one of these years was horizontal on the left and vertical on the right. The vertical stub is the correct portion of the stub that was to be given to the patron, thus they are called "patron's stubs"

2) The left side of the ticket is what is referred to in the ticket collecting hobby as an "usher's stub". This is the portion of the ticket that the ticket taker was to deposit in the ticket box as the patron entered the stadium. Occasionally (rarely) a ticket taker would hand the patron the wrong side of the stub. I've always taken this to be the work of an inexperienced or new ticket taker. Usher ticket stubs like these show up in the hobby, but only about 5% of the time. One notable exception to this would be St. Louis Cardinals tickets from the 1970's and 1980's. The Cards had a habit of reselling usher's stub tickets to historic games such as Bob Forsch's 2nd no-hitter and Steve Carlton's 300th win. There are LOTS of usher's stub tickets to these games out there as a result, FWIW.

3) The difference in ticket price noted by Lance, $1.40 vs. $1.60 does NOT eliminate Tigers tickets from the year 1937. This is merely a difference in ticket price because of seat location. Lower deck 1st tier box seats sold for a premium, $1.60, during this era as opposed to the standard $1.40 for upper reserved seats or lower deck reserved seats. This is common at all stadiums.

4) The Tigers kept their seat prices and ticket stock appearance steady for MANY years (perhaps 10+ years), which makes solving this puzzle challenging.

5) Please note that by 1945 Tigers tickets were $1.50 for upper reserved seats and $1.80 for lower reserved seats.

6) The "military green" ticket color exhibited by the "Ruth 700" ticket was common for many years at Briggs Stadium (Tiger Stadium). I recall seeing tickets of this color as late as 1952 or so.

7) The ticket could possibly be from 1939 or 1941, because the Tigers did play at Briggs Stadium on July 13th and the ticket prices were most likely the same.
When I re-checked Dave's work about the Tigers playing out of town for several of these years he is correct.

8) I am beginning to believe that the ticket is most likely from 1934 and Ruth's 700 game. Finding a date stamp that is, to my eye, identical to the other Emergency tickets in the Tigers 1934 lot that sold on eBay, would be extremely challenging. Date stamps are a bit like typewriters; they each have their own unique font and size since different companies manufactured them. The stamp was applied at the same angle on the "Ruth 700" ticket as it was to the other Emergency tickets from the Yankees series surrounding 700 in 1934. Briggs Stadium issued all of their tickets from one very small ticket booth at the corner of the stadium. It's very likely that one ticket office employee was in charge of all stamping of tickets during this period of time. Same angle of stamping, same date stamp used in application of the stamp. The ink applied to the 700 ticket appears to be old, not recent, FWIW.

If the Babe Ruth signature holds up under scrutiny of the Babe Ruth sig experts, I would now not exclude this ticket as possibly being from the Ruth 700 game.
Just my 2 cents... ;)

Correct Travis!

Also interesting to note that every one of those tickets posted appears to be in nice "sharp" condition, at least as they appear on my iPad screen. That, too me, debunks the "ticket looks too nice to be authentic" argument.

That was never the case. Lots of older baseball tickets have survived in terrific shape with sharp corners through the years. It all has to do with the randomness of the patron that attended the game.

Most patrons threw ticket stubs away, and did not save them. It stands to reason that the patron that did "save" the ticket stub would be more likely to take care of them since they cared enough to even hang on to them in the first place.

Damage to older tickets usually is exhibited on the back of the ticket. Many times, the older stubs that survived were glued into scrapbooks or scorebooks. If they are not removed carefully, this is when back damage or paper loss occurs to the ticket. Very common, BTW...

And she certainly wouldn't be gluing a ticket stub in a scrapbook that had a Babe Ruth signature on the back, if that was her original intentions when she left the game.

Very true

Possibly so, Dan. Additionally, Ruth and Co. always drew better attendance than other AL teams, FWIW. You definitely know that the Yankees drew much better crowds than a team like the lowly St. Louis Browns (apologies to all Brownies fans out there ;))

Circus Seats
 

From the July 19 issue of The Sporting News. I believe the presence of "circus seats" validates the use of emergency tickets, and the article also elaborates on how the seats were not needed based on actual attendance, but were there anyway just in case. Seems the press had been talking up a sell-out crowd, which had the reverse effect of scaring attendees away.

http://i284.photobucket.com/albums/l...cusSeats_1.jpg
http://i284.photobucket.com/albums/l...cusSeats_2.jpg
http://i284.photobucket.com/albums/l...cusSeats_3.jpg
http://i284.photobucket.com/albums/l...cusSeats_4.jpg

All good information, and Scott's attention to and evaluation of the details is much appreciated. I've definitely learned a thing or two (or three) about tickets as a result of this thread, (which is more of an education than I expected going into it ;) ). I always appreciate your breakdowns of the information at hand, Scott, as opposed to my "lookee here what I found!"

Theory confirmed...thanks for doing the research Lance!

Thanks for all the help. I at least found out what was the most important part of the puzzle. Was a generic ticket from that game stamp or no stamp.
It now comes down to if the autograph is authentic or not. That will be up to you to decide.

I agree. Nice job, Lance!

I collect, among other things, old NY Giants memorabilia.
I just checked my 1930's and 40's ticket stubs and they all have lots of printing on the back.
Was it common for Detroit tickets to be blank backed?

Chris didn't show us anything like this - makes me wonder if he's presenting theories and throwing away facts

A theory here would be yes for regular printed tickets and no for "circus tickets" which would make a whole lot of sense. Perhaps someone can confirm.

Richard,
That's an interesting question.

For the most part, Tigers tickets would have had printing on the back. No advertising, just information mostly regarding the teams right to revoke admission to patrons under certain circumstances. There also would be the brand of the ticket company that manufactured the ticket. During the 1930's and 1940's the Tigers used Ansell-Simplex Ticket Co. of Chicago, IL. This would typically be on the back of all ticket stock.

However, Emergency tickets may not have had the same treatment. Without having the opportunity to examine the back of other Emergency tickets from this era, I wouldn't know if they did or didn't have this printing. In looking through other Tigers tickets that I own, I do see at least one example from the 1950's where I DO NOT see printing on the back. These tickets are season tickets though, not regular box office tickets, thus possibly explaining the difference in printing process.

I hope this helps.

Obviously he's in the 98% that know nothing about ticket stubs. :D

Hi Ben and all,

I have never heard of Emergency tickets being called "circus tickets" FWIW. When I think of circus tickets I think of "raffle" style smaller tickets. The bleacher tickets that Lance showed are somewhat like generic circus tickets. These also had the disclaimer printing on the back. I have quite a few of these from this era.

One additional point to note. Briggs Stadium had PLENTY of capacity to handle large crowds in excess of 26,000 fans in attendance (capacity of the stadium was listed at 36,000). They should not have had to add extra seats, just sell them generic bleacher seats....

My understanding in reading the article was that additional seating ("circus seating") was set up in anticipation of a greater-than-capacity crowd. The press talked it up about how the stadium was bound to be filled to capacity, but the reality of game day didn't live up to the hype. The writer also stated that the additional seats likely weren't needed for the game on Sunday (the 15th), but remained in place anyway. The article also laments the effect that the added seating, apparently at ground level on the field itself, had on game play (kids running around on the field, doubles becoming inside the park home runs, etc), so even though the stadium was not filled to capacity, the field-level seats clearly were occupied to some extent.

Also note that the term "circus" was only ever applied to the additional seating in the article, not the tickets themselves. I don't know if this was an official term for that style of seating, or was something unique to this article. The author certainly seems to have thought that the proceedings more closely resembled a circus than a baseball game, which could have led to him coining the term...?

Gotcha! ;)
I'm sure that the Tigers organization, in an attempt to capitalize on all of the hype and hysteria surrounding the pennant race and Ruth's 700th HR game, wanted to sell more expensive $1.60 seats, not cheap bleacher seats. $$ is always a great motivator, LOL.:D

Everyone participating in this thread has 'Circus Seats'.

:D:p

That was my point:)

Ta da! :D:D:D:D:D:D:D

I guess that was par for the course from the baseball owners. The funny thing was that despite having the games on radio, and the Great Depression, Detroit finished first in attendance in 1934. You wouldn't think that the game would need to be "played" up, but money talks.

So, to get back on track, every bit of physical evidence either points to, or is consistent with this being a genuine 700 HR game ticket.

I wonder where "the Michigan forger" obtained it? ;)

I guess another question would be, even if he obtained it, it would have cost him an amount unusual for a forger to fork out considering he would only have one shot at creating such a convincing Ruth, so why not dummy up a fake ticket instead?

I hope you realize, Mike, I was being a bit of a smartass.
Of board members that have spoken, a majority of those in the "98%," and even a few in the elite "2%" feel the signature is genuine.

All physical evidence is consistent with the ticket being genuine, as well.

I'm sure the buyer will be happy with his purchase.

Yes I did David. I was just taking the point a litte further. I still stand by my first post in this thread that the OP had good info. I base that strictly on his previous posts that did not tell us anything that would help us determine why he felt the sig was bad. With this tread, we learned that he did not believe the story and why, and whether we agree with all of it or not, it did start a very interesting ticket investigation on this very thread. The other part was to compare the Ruth with a Gaedel (as well as a real Gaedel), which to many of us proved that this forger not only does a terrible Gaedel, he didn't seem, with that comparison, to have the skill to do a Ruth THAT well.
All I ever ask for when someone gives an opinion is to have them back it up with his/her reasons, and agree or disagree at least he finally did that.

Mike, I agree. To me it was the ticket first then the signiture. That is why I wanted to find out if the ticket was correct. I again want to thank everyone that went far and :) above what usually happens on here. It was nice seeing people working together and not takeing pop shots at each other.
Now its up to each person to decide is the autograph real or not.

Weeee! Haha

No, Mike, he didn't.

He presented a story outlining why he isn't happy with the provenance. He presented no information at all as to why he thinks the signature is the work of the so-called Michigan forger.

Although he didn't elaborate, he did show additional work of "the forger" for us to draw our own conclusions...which I think we did. I do know what you're saying David, but I've given up at getting any additional type of info in situations like this, but hey I'm just a dumb 98 percenter.

What info did he have? He thought it was rejected by PSA. It wasn't...he had no clue it was certified by JSA. It was. He believed it was rejected by Heritage. It wasn't... He disappears for over a week when questioned about all of this. He comes back and gives us a Red Riding Hood fairy tale that totally deflects from the autograph and focuses on the ticket.

These threads completely illustrate what is wrong in the autograph hobby and what is right in the memorabilia hobby. What did we learn about Babe Ruth autographs? Nothing. What did we learn about ticket stubs? A whole heck of a lot. We also learned something about the game played that day. Lots of collectors chimed in with their FACTS about the game and ticket stub. What did we learn from the 2 percenters? Nothing.

+1

In one of the threads it was pointed out, by SS, that the Ruth signature had some potential issues with it. In comparing some of them how many legitimate Ruth autographs have the A in Babe be open?

+!

What did we learn? Are there no legit Ruth autographs with an open "A"?

As Shelly said, now that we're through analyzing the ticket (for now, anyway), we can look at the signature.

I haven't heard anyone say that this signature is "convincing".

I believe that some board members have said they believe that it's real.
I'm pretty certain David A. said it was in the 1st thread, FWIW.
If I'm wrong, please don't crucify me. :)

No one said that. There no such thing as always.

Not many....?

That's right. In this case, I agree with Jimmy Spence. (I have made a mistake or two in my 50+ years of collecting, and I have made a judgement or two on this very board without looking as closely as I should have, so ya'll gotta factor that in.)

But I believe the signature is good.

Haha. In any statistical analysis, you would throw out the highs and lows. I threw out a low.

Ha ha. You must be high. :)

Well-played, sir :)

Thank you.

Mr. Jim Stinson once commented:

Actually autograph authentication is pretty easy ....No magic wand, and simple formula is when in doubt... BOW OUT ! That includes 1% of doubt.


I have no doubt.

FWIW, I believe Jim was talking about making a decision whether to purchase an autograph or not.

It now comes down to the autograph. I would love to know what PSA,Stinson,Richard and Ron has to say about this signiture. If you trust Spence I think you would trust these guys. The problem with this is I dont think anyone of them wants to step on each other toes:rolleyes:

No evidence, either.

Scott, I believe capacity was 26,000 and was increased to 36,000 the following year.

Good analysis here!

I have a question as to when and why they would issue these emergency tickets. Why were they issued on the 12th (Attendance: 20K) and 13th (22.5K), but not the 14th (Sold Out)? Why would they stamp the date on them? Am I wrong in the assumption they would have A-Z? Wouldn't any ticket taker be told it was an 'A' day?
These may be dumb questions, but I'm sure someone here knows. :)

I want the people that ripped Chris for not saying anything to know that you are all wrong. I emailed a few people that I have respect for to back off because Chris did exactly what you wanted him to do.
He called Josh and told him the name of the forger, the tell and told him where the guy is from. Not only that, he told Josh to relay everything he said to Jimmy. I know this because I was on the other line. Not only that, I emailed Josh and he shined me off. The reason he did not post he had done it would have given the forger more info than was necessary.
Those people can verify that fact if they want to.

Really? Well, you've just posted that he had done it. What have you given away?

Hi Jim,

I went back and re-read the info on Briggs stadium capacity available on the internet. I had two sources state that the capacity of Briggs Stadium was expanded to 30,000 in 1923, but you are correct in that they didn't expand to capacity of 36,000 until 2 years after Babe's 700th HR game in 1934.

Here is my original post about the Emergency tickets used in 1934 and my questions about the use of them after reading Josh from Huggins and Scotts post in the first thread:

"Very interesting...
I'm curious where the photo of all the tickets came from?
I see that it says eBay on the screen shot, but I'm intrigued how this image shows a ticket issued only one day apart (wow!) from the alleged Ruth 700 HR ticket. That's an amazing coincidence! They obviously are stamped identically, at the same angle, yet the Emergency Tickets are "A" tickets one day, and "Z" the following day- in July, no less (half way through the season)!
FWIW, about 22,000 were in attendance for Ruth's 700th HR. Did this require that the Tigers issue emergency tickets? I looked at all the surrounding games at DET on the 1934 schedule and they all appear to have similar attendance, especially with the Yankees in town. I saw attendances ranging from 20,000-26,000 during this homestand. I would also note that at least 4 games at DET prior to the NY series that featured Ruth's HR drew at least as many fans. One of the games drew 30,000 fans and the game on July 4th drew 40,000 fans for a twin bill. Would Ruth's 700th HR be Emergency ticket "Z" if it was at a minimum the 6th high attended game in DET in 1934?
I don't know, and I'm quite certain that no one knows for sure. It just seems odd to me, FWIW...

I certainly can be wrong, but I stand by my assertion that I have not seen other earlier vintage Tigers tickets stamped in this fashion prior to the screen shot that you posted"

FWIW, I now believe, given all of the new evidence submitted, that they would have issued Emergency tickets for the July 14th game as well, especially if they were anticipating a blow out turnout because of all the PR and the pennant battle between the Tigers and the Yanks.

You are correct in that the ticket takers would all be privy to the Emergency tickets being "A" or "Z" or whatever depending on the day.

And this will change what? I don't believe the auction house, the buyer, the seller, or JSA will rescind the sale, purchase, authentication or anything involved with this. Regardless of what Chris may or may not have finally stated to Josh, everyone actually involved with this transaction appears to be happy as nothing has been stated to rebuke that assumption.

As for everyone being wrong, I believe everyone was right when any statements you are referring to were made.

If you read what I said. You are wrong in thinking that Chris did nothing.Nothing more than what you asked him to do. What the auction house did with that info was up to them.
I am only stating that Chris did what most of you on this site asked him to do. Because he did not say anything to you or anyone else on this board I can now see why. Your damned if you do and you are damned if you don't.
I really think that this site has become who can we pick on next. There was so much pilling on that you should all be ashamed.
I am who I am and you take shots at me.
Chris has never hurt this hobbie and always tried to help. You hurt the one person that has done more to help than anyone of you on this site. If I am wrong name that other person.:mad:

What corroborating evidence did Chris present?

he didnt do what we asked. we asked for proof and he didnt show any.

he could have NOT started the thread and go directly to h and s and spence but that wouldnt give him the opportunity to brag because why start the thread if he isnt going to show proof other than to brag and bring attention to himself that he knows something and the rest don't?

you cant rally people behind your cause and build a consensus if everything, and i mean everything you do in your life regarding the hobby is a big SECRET! how is it picking on someone to ask for proof of their serious charge? no one should pile on if someone comes on here and says i know something and you dont deserve to know and i am right and you can't disagree because i am the top 2% and you aint ship?

w t heck? NOW I have seen it all. I am sure lots of lawyers in the courtroom would love to try that trick when prosecuting someone. I know they are guilty so don't even bother asking me how I know! He prosecuted this autograph and didn't present any hard evidence. And again, if you counter that he let h and s and spence know everything, then so what? he could have done that anyway without starting the thread and thumbing his nose at the rest of us telling us we are not worthy of his information? I want to know his history and background regarding vintage baseball autographs.

he flames atkatz and bretta but doesnt answer me at all. i know all i will get is that he doesn't owe me or anyone else anything regarding his hobby resume concerning vintage baseball. fighting forgeries and knowing babe ruth and vintage baseball autographs are two different things.

I would think they would stamp it for the benefit of the ticket holder. It is likely that at least a handful of people purchased more than one ticket for the series. Without a date stamp, it might lead to confusion.

Shelly,

And how recently did Chris share this information? It wasn't during the auction was it?

Travis, when you are asked a question do always answer it? I know that you have a friend that knows the Babe's sig, please ask if he would buy or not.:D

Yes the date was 4/8/2013 at 12;33 est,

I don't believe a word of it.

I was contacted by Shelly on the day of the auction, before it was over. He and I spoke for a good little while on the phone.

And?

If that is true, I can only assume whatever Chris stated was not sufficient in any way to override what others thought and believed, nor does it appear to even now.

Then the question is would you spend $ 12000 on this piece knowing what you have read. If you say yes why not buy a 1/1 that you think was a great bargin?
If you could not afford it I understand.

Since when is the test of authenticity "Would you buy it?"

Ruth either signed that ticket, or he didn't. Who would or would not buy it is totally irrelevant.

Shelly,

I would not mind owning that item as I have not seen anything to disprove it's authenticity, but that kind of money is way above my pay scale.

No problem, I am talking about the people on this site that have a ton of money and have said what a great item this is. I would think that in a year they could double there money.

Thanks Scott. I find this facinating,

Why were emergency tickets issued?
Was it only for the upper deck?
How would they keep track of seats so there were no duplicates sold? These weren't SRO, or lawn, or even GA. These were section/ row/ seat. :eek:

And can anyone answer WHY they were date stamped? Early purchase can be a possible explanation.
Has anyone found any others beyond the 2009 eBay lot. From any date beside the day before this ticket? Am I being too much of a PITA? :o

Why do you think your being anyting but interested is a pita.
I think the one place that no has gone to is the company that said the ticket not the autorgraph is real. I would love to know how they authenticated that ticket. If was not stamped how did they know it was from 1934.
Scott, don't get upset. I think that the company that said the ticket is authentic should explain why.:)
If there is secret to this then I wouild really be upset, that would mean that the ticket could be faked.
Leon, can you find this out?
Scott please correct me. The only 700 hr ticket you have seen was dated on the ticket and sold for $2500 plus. There is no other ticket out there except the one that is not a real ticket but one that is stamped. Hof,Yankees, Tigers, all of the place that you would think have a ticket don't. It is like Jimmey Spence authenticating an autograph that has no exemplars.

I think this is great. you're coming over to Travis' side!

No worries, this is all about learning and having fun with your hobby. :)

BTW, I would also like to mention a couple of other specific historic baseball games that Emergency tickets were used (both were unscheduled games):

1) Denny McLain's 31st win in 1968 at DET. McLain also served up Mickey Mantles 2nd to last career HR in this game. No printed or stamped date on this ticket at all.


2) HOF Wade Boggs' career ML debut at CWS. No printed or stamped date on this ticket.

Unless you knew what you were looking for, you would never know these tickets if you saw them.

It should be noted that many of my answers come from knowing friends that worked in baseball ticket offices for many years, FWIW...

It really has nothing to do with what side I am on. I just want to know how they came to the fact the ticket is authentic. I dont want them to say it is because there is a stamp on it.
If you look at my history on this site I have nerver sided with Spence or Psa.
Travis and I might not see eye to eye but both of us want to know the truth.Travis just goes about a little different than I do:D
I still want to thank everyone that whent the distance to find out if that ticket is authentic or not.
I really think it is time for the company that said it is authentic to explain. If I spent over $12000 I would like to know. This is not an autorgraph I really think there is no secret to this. Is the ticket without a stamp from that year no more no less and why?

Shelly - we're talking autographs. You have to pick a side. One side is right and the other is wrong - that's why it's so easy to buy a Babe Ruth autograph and know it is not a forgery. Hasn't this sub-forum taught you anything? :confused:

Yes, it has. Instead of looking at the autograph let us find out if the ticket is authentic. Then like I have said over and over again it is up to you to decide if that autograph is real or not. I dont think the signiture is authentic. If the ticket is not authentic then it suports my thinking. I only want to know why that the comapny said that ticket was from that year without saying it had a stamp Do you think that is a question that should not be asked?

all we want is answers and people to explain why they think something is bad, or good. now if we could just get chris to explain. shelly is on my side but lets vet the autograph now.