Who made what money?? What are you even talking about? You just like reading your own cool guy posts don't you? You're like the little kid that jumps in screaming "YEAH!!!" for no reason. Go back to whatever hole you crawled out from.....please.

Let me go ahead and draw this virtual line in the sand. Get back to the topic please.....or your post might be edited out. I think the fraud that Jeff is talking about is rampant and needs to be dealt with. As an auctioneer I could easily do photoshop and scanning tweaks to make things look better. Then I too would be a fraudster......but for me, it hurts my gut so I can't do it. Others, it doesn't seem to bother. They will reap what they sow.....

So then you do feel that offer was fairly decent considering it seemed high to you for the back? If offers because I'm a huge Tris collector as well, the back was just an added bump due to overall rarity. But it wasn't an invitation to try to give it to me in the a$$ with no lube. That's my whole point in the first place. If I really wanted to low ball I wouldn't have offered almost $6,000. Common sense should start kicking in to some people as 6-65 is about what it would pull in even at an AH.

Glenn not sure why I’m the bad guy here or why all of your hostility?

I’ve been offered way above what you offered for the card in question. I don’t need to sell because guess what….exactly that I don’t need to sell. The card is in my personal collection and I’m in no need to unload the item. Should I decide to sell this card why would I sell to you at less than what I paid for it or for that matter a slight perceived profit via your eyes. Last I checked hobby prices aren’t set by you.

I was very nice on your request and I was clear I would sell this card but need a serious offer. You failed to give a serious offer and I wasted none of your time or mine on back forth banter I said thanks but no thanks. It was you who continued the lecture and conversation as if to imply you had it figured all out and I’m just some dumb schmuck with some cards.

This has nothing to do with markets, trends/fads, you being a super successful business man, the rise and fall of T206’s, stock markets or unreasonable sellers.

You offered a number and a low one at that and I said no thanks very nicely for the record…that’s it.

Perhaps you can think about that next time you think the seller is the unreasonable one as coins do tend to have two sides that’s all I was saying.

John

P.S. Nobody was trying to take advantage of you. You made an offer and I rejected that offer. I never even gave you a counter offer or number so how is that attempting to take advantage of you? :confused:

This auction made me think of the title of this thread- "more obvious frauds"- boy I sure love the private bidding as well as the nice clean bidding amounts, ouch-

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1909-11-T206...item33811d6066

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1909-11-T206...item4ac31c5284

Perfect example. Rare back? If a real person "wins" that card, they'd probably be someone new to the hobby who read about rare backs somewhere and believed this description.

Look John, here's the deal, first of all I bear no hostility to you, as my definition of "hostile" is a lot different than yours, believe me when I say that. Second of all if you had offers WAY above the almost $6,000 I last offered, you should have and already would sold it. Why don't you post a thread of those offers like you did mine?? Thirdly don't get defensive with me when it was YOU who decided to first air the dirty laundry, at that point it's fair game right? Sorry but I have very little tolerance for bull$hit to begin with as it is coming from a third generation mob family, it's ingrained in me.

Sounds to me like you're the one who feels like you got it all figured out right? Since now you wanna lecture me on what this is actually about. Explain to me why your word is now gospel? Sounds kinda hypocritical wouldn't ya say? But what do I know, I'm the dumb f*ck buyer who didnt pay you 3 times what your card is worth ;)

Send me a PM if you'd like to continue.

So you want more less obvious frauds? :confused::p

Sorry but every time I see this thread bumped into my new posts I think it comes off like you wish people would hide their fraud better.

A couple of personal points.

1. Anyone in the market for the original card in question should be doing their due diligence and know the issue's previous history. This is not a card that an unsuspecting mother, father, or wife would pull the trigger on for a loved one's gift. I would venture to guess that less than half of this board's registered members had even seen a copy of it before this thread. It also does not carry the popularity of as, say, one of his T206 poses so it would not be on the radar of even above-average collectors. What are there, maybe a couple dozen graded examples of the card?

2. I do not personally consider adjusting scans an agent of fraud. To me that is reserved for trimmed, recolored, swapped, and stolen cards. Part of selling is making the product seem appealing. If the scan was edited to hide something (paper loss-creases) I might consider otherwise, but simply adjusting the scan to make the card pop does not constitute fraud to me. Unethical maybe, but not fraud.

3. Use common sense. The card is slabbed poor with obvious creases. Yes, I know not all poor cards are built alike, but know what you are getting. I have purchased many lower grade cards before and never have I commented "I really thought it would present better" when I received them. They are poor for a reason.

4. A seller can ask whatever they want for card. It is their business. This isn't the late 80's and early 90's when everyone was a dealer and that was their livelihood. There are a few big time dealers left on the bay who make a living turning cardboard, but the vast majority are doctors, lawyers, educators, or businessmen and women first. It is not a job for them, it is a hobby and their family isn't going to go hungry because they wouldn't come down 10%-15% on a $3k card.

5. I'll over pay for a card that I really want. I am a very impulsive buyer. There are many collectors who are very selective and patient, but there are also many like me who, when they want it and have the cash, will jump on it. I had been following a card sitting on a 1k buy it now for almost a year. It was more likely a $600-650 card. It sold two weeks ago. I thought I knew who picked it up so I sent him an email. He was the one who finally bit and when I asked him if he thought it was a bad deal he responded that he hadn't seen another one come up in months and he really wanted it. He was happy. The seller was happy. Everyone was happy.

6. It is a baseball card.

Agree with everything you said Steven....but you lost me on this one-

"2. I do not personally consider adjusting scans an agent of fraud. To me that is reserved for trimmed, recolored, swapped, and stolen cards. Part of selling is making the product seem appealing. If the scan was edited to hide something (paper loss-creases) I might consider otherwise, but simply adjusting the scan to make the card pop does not constitute fraud to me. Unethical maybe, but not fraud."


Deceiving is fraud and making a scan look better than the card really is, is called deception. Plain and simple fraud to me. I guess it's debateable, just not in my mind.

You assume too much in terms sales motivation.

No need to PM any further I was done with any potential transaction/discussion last week when I said no thank you nicely. I’m not offering up anyone else’s PM’s because those people aren’t in here claiming that simply because someone didn’t accept their offer to buy something, is unreasonable or a new form of sodomy. :)

You failed to see my point, lets get back to bumped scans and tweaked listings or as I call it every catalog. :)

John

Internet forum hugeness ineptitude. Reminds me of this scene:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3LAnmnS0-9g

You're not offering up because they don't exist.....now I'm convinced you think I'm a gullible idiot, thanks!

If you had a point to make in the first place I'd see it. Shoulda sent the PM.

Yeah Steve you also skipped over the lying in descriptions part, which was the original topic of this post.


-Matt

Too me it is hard to say when a scan has been deceptively manipulated. A scanner is a camera, you have to chose the settings that best show the card to what you seen in hand on your monitor.

The problem is that not everyone uses a color management system so everyone's view is different. Also every scanner is different along with the default settings so what one person's scanner captures can be different then the next person. Then you add on top of that different scanning software. So really every you make a scan the software is making a tweak (whether you know it or not) to make the output on your monitor match the photo taken by the scanner.

So when every scan consists of at least three (scanner, software, monitor) different things to make the outcome. If you add printing a catalog into it then you have another adjustment from another outside company.

Why, after Leon asked for an end to this, is this still going on?

If you want to PM someone do it, don't ask that they send you the PM. Is this how the mob handles things now days?

Ask John.....

Since you're now an expert on mob dealings why don't you answer it tough guy...be careful now, don't tread where you have no f*cking clue where you're going or what you're talking about. You're better off letting this one go.

Thanks Andy. I don't like to be too heavy handed but at some point I will get us back on track of the original subject. When members keep doing it and their posts end up saying "edited" I guess they will understand what I meant. I know both of the guys arguing and both are good guys...albeit type A personalities. :) Let's get back to beating up the real fraudsters, the way it should be.

And I will make it easy for the 2 parties involved. If either of you post in this thread anymore, and it doesn't have to do with the original post, I will edit it's contents completely out. Trust me.

Understandable opinion. What I stated was more of how I personally view the topic. I guess that it is largely contextual. Trimming a card's border is fraud no matter how much is cut. Using a stolen scan and shipping a different card to a buyer is obvious fraud. Adjusting a scan is not the same to me. Eye appeal is subjective. If a seller brightens a scan to make a card standout, but when I receive the card I am happy with its appearance was I truly defrauded? If I chose to sell it one day, the amount that I receive depends on the several factors: the grade, the market, and how the card appeals to the buyers. If the next owner is equally as happy then no one is the chain was defrauded. Other people probably look at the situation differently and that is completely acceptable.

Agreed. I recently sold a hat on ebay, using the default images that my scanner produces. The seller thought they were getting a grey hat, when it was actually brown. I've found that I have to up the contrast and the red setting to get an accurate depiction. But even doing that, I've had hobby friends ask me questions that indicated to me that their monitor and my monitor weren't in sync. Also, there is at least one auction house that produces ridiculous card scans that look cartoonish - I'm sure it isn't on purpose, as it can't possibly help their sales.

I think that often, the sellers are just trying to depict their item accurately and end up making a mistake. And on the flip side of the coin, most of us have picked up things cheap because the scan did not represent the item fairly for the seller.

I know Steven. And when I wrote what I did I also know there are boundaries. I don't want to see a card be super bright and crisp...then get it and it's a dull turd. Otherwise, a little bit of brightness is ok.....just not a whole lot :). We are most certainly on the same page. Now about that low ball offer you made me. :mad: ....................:)

No worries Leon, you have my word, issues have been dealt with it and over. You already know me pretty well from our great discussions ;)

I appreciate you keeping it open as long as you did.

I like to let folks get it off their chest but at some point we just need to get back on track. I appreciate your and John's understanding. And I know John fairly well personally, from spending a lot of time with him at shows, and I say confidently, that you guys would be great friends in person. Just like you and I got off on the wrong foot, it all worked out fine....

Is there somebody in this thread actually throwing their mob connections around?

:confused:


This has been a very, very entertaining read. :D

Dave, I just got a call to go beat myself up.

You could be right, sometimes things are hard to translate through letters on a message board when one can't see how something is coming off. We both felt like the other was "calling out" I guess. Oh well, $hit happens when discussing a passion, it's not the first and won't be the last.

That I can actually believe :)

You've been a good sport Scotty.

I'm a ball buster and a pain in the royal ass to deal with on a daily basis.....ask my wife she'll tell you.

Thanks, Glenda.

I'm a 4th generation Gypsy. I often forget where I park my VW Van and have been known to trade old cardboard for shiny trinkets and costume jewelry.

My bullsh*t meter however, is often found on the left side of "Naive".

:(

There you go! See.....

What's my Mom gotta do with this?:)

The thread has now entered the kumbaya stage.

I suppose it depends if sellers are simply listing with the "unpredictability of buyers" in mind, as versus the "naivete of buyers". Conning, lying, misrepresenting and item is and does stink of "rip-off artists". This is rampant on eBay, and its only benefit should be to quickly announce to everyone to do their own research before making any purchase. Then again, as is discussed here, sometimes there is information that is purported that isn't able to be researched. This is where sellers prey on any buyers, not just buyers with a relatively low amount of knowledge.

As many have articulated here, if a seller is simply putting a price tag on an item that is 5x the "value", then this price choice is not indicative of an intent to rip off. The price choice is not what determines value, the purchase price is what carries that burden. That having been said, from my experience, the unpredictability of buyers does not have as much to do with people new to the hobby, but instead to buyers within the hobby who have endless checkbooks. I mean, look at the recent prices of T206 backs that have sold. I can't tell you how many times I have priced something that I deemed "very high", accompanied with a best offer option, only to have it bought without an offer ever being sent.

I would hope that many buyers new to the hobby are becoming A LOT more diligent, I would think that that is simple common sense. I've only been involved in the hobby for a few years, and my first T206 Cub wasn't purchased for 300$ because it was an "ANTIQUE BASEBALL CARD GEORGE BROWN CUBS T206 BV$6000"
If a grown man does no research on an item, and pays, in the eyes of knowledgeable hobbyists, 10x what the card's actual "value" is, then don't blame the seller.

I wrote most of this stuff up before reading through the posts of this thread, and don't want to get too off topic per Leon's request!


Anyways, more stuff that I had already written:

I suppose it depends on how one views the other side of the transactional spectrum, as I now noticed John mentioned. If a buyer offers 10$ for a 200$ card, what do you do? If it were me, I almost always would simply counter the offer, and say thank you for your interest. I've never been offended by an offer. Some buyers, which I suppose I understand, may just choose not to respond and ignore an offer --- which is certainly understandable in some cases --- or may choose to be offended and angered by the offer, as though it insults their intelligence. I say this because I know buyers will feel this when they see certain prices that sellers put on their cards. Heck, I do it naturally before I remind myself to not get offended by it. By the same token, when you don't win a certain card you were bidding on, don't you end up saying "Man, some idiot paid that much for that card?; Good for them!" The fact is that, though you're incredulous at the price, it did in fact sell for that price. I believe that's happened to me when buying T206 Cubs maybe 15 times in the last 2 weeks, heh!



Regarding scanner fraud, it's just fricking stupid. Greed plays such a role in people, and without trying to sound righteous, I simply don't understand it - as I know many of you don't either. It is infuriating, but it won't change. Ebay is focused on high prices, and they don't really care about the means at which this is accomplished, means that include shill bidding, fraud (as long as a buyer doesn't realize they were defrauded by a seller, at which point, if a buyer does realize it --- eBay will oh so joyfully come to their rescue! :rolleyes:), etc.

Perhaps it's now the exception and not the rule anymore, but there are plenty of sellers who provide fantastic scans and don't put any BS information, many of which sell or post on NET54.

Perhaps, for once, we should start a thread of GREAT sellers. What a novel idea!


Sorry if all that was too tangential, I wrote it down and figure it would be a waste of my time to erase it now!


As always, I enjoyed many of your posts! Other than yours Glenn ;) j/k, but I'm sure we'd get along in person or on the phone!

Oh, and I LOVED the Anchorman reference.


.

Kumbaya stage with a long epilogue written by someone arriving late to the party because he was teaching music to a bunch of elementary kids. Hahaha... sorry everyone!

Nate, ironically our 1st-grade music teacher always had us sing 'Kumbaya' - every week for a year.

All's well that ends well. As anyone who's ever in a dispute with me will remind everyone, I've had some sort of argument with anyone who's opinionated on this board, but any grudges being held are never on my end. It's just the internet.

Well said Scott. I think, for the most part, many of the disagreements would end up sounding a lot like common ground if in person, with a glass of whiskey in each person's hand. :D

It depends on what kind of issues you're buying/selling. I've recieved faded OJs in the mail that looked great in the scan... These sellers/AHs know exactly what they're doing and why.

-Matt

I've had at least three phone conversations this year with people who were either in the midst of a fight with another board member, or who I was talking with because of something similar involving the two of us. In all cases we agreed that what you said above was true.

Which is really weird, given that you hadn't said it yet :confused:

Spoken like a true elementary school music teacher............ :D (I was going to use the "wink" smilie, but after seeing it so many times in this thread, I'm not sure what it means anymore).

,

Haha, though my liquor cabinet may suggest otherwise, I have whiskey (scotch), or some type of alcoholic beverage, about once every 2 weeks or so. Every now and then, I might put together a 3 day drink streak, but I doubt I'll ever approach Joe D.'s record.

.

Pretty much. :) At least if you're going to commit a fraud try to be a little less obvious and put more effort into it. Being dishonest and lazy is worse than just being dishonest.

I like this.

More Scams....
 

Speaking of frauds, or in this case potential fraud. I just don't get it. You know this will be used for some potential scam.....:mad::mad::mad:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Honus-Wagner...p2047675.l2557

I just don't understand... This will probably be used to deceive some poor sap...
It's even in a psa/sgc hybrid China case. They are promoting this "reprint" to be a great alternative to the real thing. Sure, whatever that's fine. The buyers for this? Probably scammers...

My question is why put it in a fake holder? It's advertised as a reprint but I believe the underlying purpose of these particular cards is to screw someone over... Just makes me mad.

I don't know if I'm overreacting because I've been scammed before soooo... All I know is it is a very heartbreaking experience which even led me to stop collecting. I just don't want someone to go through something like that. Luckily, I recovered ( even though it was 10 years later).

Forgive me for the venting...

Colby,

At first blush, these "cards" seem (to me, at least) to come right from a fraudster's toolbox, complete with suspect holders. Admittedly, I did not drill down into the fine details; however, completely agree with your point.

These things will wind up being part of a scam someday.

Best Regards,

Eric

Well all in all, it saddens me. I just hate the thought of potential new baseball card enthusiasts could be turned off after realizing they got scammed. Things like this just kills the hobby and new hobbyists...

I mean if you are any what knowledgeable of the hobby then you will know that these are fake but what about the newbies who know nothing but always wanted to buy a card like this then finally got the chance?

Probably my favorite quote of month. Maybe year.

Just a Newby with a few personal thoughts
 

Keith here. When I began expanding my (non) existent collection last year I became acutely aware of my inability to do a decent job of seeing true card quality. I quickly became aware of the ebay habit of misrepresentation through poor photo quality, omitting backs, poor lighting, tilted photos, and scans that mislead. In fact, I found I am terrible with a scanner when attempting to get true representations of my cards I wanted to post to the SGC Registry. Besides blurring (I use a lower end HP) I found creases had a tendency to disappear. My lack of confidence and unwillingness to mislead has actually stopped me from selling cards, for both the reason of possibly misleading someone and also limiting the potential sale price of a particular card. As to my ability to properly price a card, well..unh.. that's the rub, I guess.

Another thought. Last year I made an offer on a BIN, and after several back and forths, we came within fifty bucks on a 1600 card. The last time I looked the card as listed at the same BIN, has to be over 7 months now. Seems to me the seller could have turned over the money and reinvested in another piece of profitable merchandise. Guess this was my first taste of a seller with a different level of motivation than myself, or quite possibly a better undersanding of the card's value.

As for misleading and fraudulent sellers, scans of graded cards are just that; scans of graded cards. Any verbiage from the seller is just words. But what do I know, it can be scary buying a higher end t201 or t206. These particular examples leading into this thread are out of my league, so I sit, watch, listen, think. Keep it coming, guys, much appreciated.

Colby,

Agreed...it maddens the hell out of seasoned hobbyists, too.

I have been burned exactly twice in the 30 or so total years I have participated in this hobby. One time was with a counterfeit in the 1990's and I recently wound up with a trimmed card. The particular examples I got stuck with are unimportant for this discussion; however, both transactions left me feeling less than happy about the state of affairs this hobby faces.

Again, I agree...while I may not get duped on the Wagner and Plank that initiated our exchange, there are newcomers to our hobby that would be...and that is a net loss for baseball card collecting, as a whole. After all, without the infusion of new, young, enthusiastic collectors, the continuity of the hobby is in jeopardy.

I appreciate your opinions on the subject and hope this finds you well.

Best Regards,

Eric

I agree that there is too much misrepresentation of the quality of cards.

At this point I'm hesitant about paying more than 20 bucks for a card on ebay that hasn't been graded.

(yes, grading may be a false sense of security, but i haven't reached that realization yet)

I am 22 and I RARELY meet a "vintage" collector my age, like finding a NR-MT t206 Ty Cobb green background in an attic in Alaska (yes so rare that I referenced the state of Alaska), it just doesn't happen. I just think if someone is contemplating in joining our hobby and finds out its filled with an overwhelming amount of frauds then wouldn't that make he/she not want to pursue it? I mean if it was me joining a new hobby and then found out almost every corner I turned someone was trying to scam me, or some dealer/seller was selling their card to me at an absurd price I would not want to pursue it as well.

Vice-versa, there is so much info on the web that can inform a newbie when trying to buy cards but doesn't it disappoint you when you find out the local card shop is selling cards at prices that are absurd (like they're trying to rip you off)? Also, doesn't it suck doing research and finding out the PSA holders can be cracked open then replaced with fakes? I mean there are SO MANY THINGS YOU NEED TO BE AWARE OF....It just seems like that the vintage side of the hobby only allows the most AVID and DETERMINED baseball newbies to join... This is just my opinion. Please someone tell me its not that bad. I've been back in the hobby for only a year and I hope I'm wrong. So someone please correct me.

I'm aware of two board members who are younger then you. That's about it that I'm aware of though.

Colby,

On behalf of Net54, please accept my sincerest best wishes to you on your journey. Collecting baseball cards is something that all of us share as a common passion.

From my limited and (admittedly stunted) perspective, it seems as though you may have just a bit of angst...and I wonder why this is. I realize that this hobby is fraught with peril; however, there does exist a tremendous upside.

For example, there is this board...which is amazing in both the depth and breadth of the knowledge shared here.

Although newbies are subjected to "hazing" on occasion...if polite, well-mannered, and generally more interested in the hobby than their own self-promotion...they are generally welcomed.

Yes, fraud is prevalent in this hobby. However, this board can sniff it out quicker than a seasoned bloodhound...and often do. In fact, the repercussions of a card being, "outed" as a fake on this board usually lead to a, "death knell" for eBay auctions.

As Leon would say, please pull up a chair and make yourself comfortable. You have landed at a great site...and all of us welcome you. Please enjoy your stay.

Best Regards,

Eric

Eric,

I have no angst, but just a disconcerning feeling about the future of the vintage baseball world. This cite and Leon have welcomed me with open arms and I am more than grateful for that. I have a passion for baseball just as much or more than the members of this cite. I look for no upside when collecting. I wish to never sell my collection. I only hope to pass it down for generations. I just love the history and story behind each card. My grandfather got me hooked on collecting and his favorite player was Mickey Mantle. His passion for baseball has resonated through me. The only reason I even heard about "the Mick" was because of the stories he told me as a child. Today, Mickey Mantle is my favorite player. Anyways, I wish the best for the hobby of course. I also think joining this website was the best thing I ever did. The collecting vintage card world at first seems so vast and dark. When I joined Net54 I felt a lot more at ease and many here have been so unbelievably helpful. The darkness finally turned to light. Since ive joined I've literally spent a few hours reading threads each day. So much information and so little time. All in all, my angst is caused by the deception and fraud I have gone through. Baseball is my passion and I got turned off from collecting vintage when I was scammed. I just truly wish no one will go through something like that. Especially a novice collector. So when seeing fraudulent auctions just makes me mad because of the repercussions it can potentially cause. Once again, sorry for the vent but thank you to all on this board for helping me through my collecting journey...

-Colby

From my limited experience, if you're looking to make sure you don't get ripped off, the B/S/T forum here is a safe place. From my (again, limited) experience, few here are willing to sacrifice their reputation to rip you off for a hundred bucks. My dealings here have all been positive.

But as always, be careful out there.

Hi Colby-

I think there will always be people who will try to take advantage of someone if they have the chance. Not just in this hobby, but in life. It sucks, but there's ways to avoid it. Some people will risk their reputation over a couple of bucks-it's pathetic but true.

I've never been burned on Net54, and have made some great contacts and usually try to stay buying from people I've had good dealings with. It's always good to have a few raw cards of whatever you collect so you can really get to know them-you will see that it makes it easier after awhile to notice something that "doesn't look right".

And finally, there's many people on this board who are willing to help if you have questions before you pull the trigger on something- don't be afraid to ask for help. Many decent board members with a ton of knowledge who will help a fellow collector. If I can ever help, feel free to contact me (I'm no expert, but if I don't know the answer I may be able to point you in the right direction).

Don't let scam artists discourage you from enjoying the hobby. They usually get outed and squashed like bugs. :D

Sincerely, Clayton

Define "rip you off." There are plenty of board members who are happy to buy a card on eBay for $1000 and list it on the BST for $4000 three days later -- right after posting it on the pickups thread as their "holy grail."

Good point Jeff. As an example, several years ago I was able to get an E136 Home Run Kisses card that is some kind of pre-production card or test card. It is on completely white and very thin stock. It was several thousand dollars. It got graded fine and I know the provenance of it and several experts agree it is what it is. I posted it on the board as a new pick up. Next thing I know a board member, who I know very well, tells me he has a 1911 Zeenut the same way and he wants $1500 for it. I tell him, well, I dunno, why don't you send it to me and let me check it out. If it's good and like you say, then we can talk price but the price quoted isn't out of line for what it supposedly is. I got it. It was a very regular Zeenut that was just a little light from exposure to the elements. I had plenty just like it. He said, ok....how about $15.....so I bought it. Caveat emptor.
While there are almost no absolute thefts from the BST you can still get taken advantage of. The very large majority of collectors here won't do that but there are almost 4000 members now so there is a bit of almost everything. If I can ever help anyone, especially our younger collectors, please PM me.....best regards

Leon, that is a hilarious story! $15! That poor seller probably had to think about getting a job. How awful!

You noticed that too huh?.....;)

Goes back to the original point...just more and more "sellers" lately who think NOBODY else follows what things sell for on Ebay or in other auctions :rolleyes:

Just encountered another douchebag last night trying to pull the same bull$hit with me, it's getting worse and worse it seems with every passing day. There's definitely a lot of really great and legit sellers here, but then the "others"......not so much.

If u dont want to get ripped off...educate yourself...its as simple as that! Much easier to do these days than 20+ yrs ago.

Glenn, no offense, but there's no need to curse in every post, it actually belittles a lot of the valid points you make. I like to think of this place as the "gentleman's forum", and I think a lot of others do too. I curse a lot in real life myself, but I try to keep it to a minimum on here.

Thanks Eric, I agree. I PM'd another board member about his constant cursing last night...it is in another forum on the board, not this main page. A few minor cuss words isn't a big deal but if it gets to be too much then that isn't a good thing. And no F bombs or more vulgar language will be tolerated at all. I like to think that I can let my 16 yr old daughter read the board and me not be worried about it.

Eric, not making excuses, and Glenn and I are on good terms, but some of the recent posts by somewhat newer guys got me thinking about the cursing.

I live in Seattle, where the 'F' bomb is just another word to anyone under 30. They fling it without hesitation, anywhere they happen to be, without regard to anyone around them. It might slightly offend super-old people who weren't born and bred in the PacNW, but natives and anyone in their 50's or younger barely seem to notice. And of course, any of the 'lesser' curse words are just standard stuff for younger people, regardless of where they are from. There are exceptions, but they are rare (my kids, for instance).

I don't know about the East coast, but in the South the situation was different. Even the cruder businessmen types would generally keep that stuff within their smaller groups - not fling it around when talking with baristas, etc. Old people would be horrified, younger people might wince a bit. The only exception, really, was drunks, but they could be avoided in public.

Those are extremes - I don't know what it's like in California or Florida; the midwesterners certainly have cleaner mouths but I don't know - perhaps that is changing?

So, given that it's totally acceptable to be as foul as you want in some parts of the country, in musical lyrics, radio talk-show hosts, etc., what's okay in an internet forum? Basically, my thinking is that it's probably perfectly acceptable in so many forums, that there's no longer such a thing as a 'gentlemen's forum', or at least there won't be in the near future. The progress of technology has allowed us to dispense with 'watching our language' - there are no bars of internet soap.

No ill-will toward Glenn with this post - I'm sure he just uses those words to emphasize his points. I'm just curious how others feel about this. It would be interesting to get thoughts from various parts of the country.

Also, I use 'douchebag' frequently - in my opinion it applies to many on the internet, and doesn't seem like too offensive of a word.

I totally get what you're saying Scott, like I said, I curse a lot in "real life" myself. I too would like others' opinions on it. Times are always-a-changing.

Very well put Scott. I, and the other mods, wouldn't want this place to be sterile. And when I am around my own friends I admit to using the F bomb frequently. But I wouldn't dare do it around my little girl, her friends or most adults in the area of Texas I live in. And as long as there is an edit feature on this board, and I get to try to keep it civil, this will mostly be the forum Eric is speaking of....with all of our little spats and arguments in between. We don't need, or want, potty mouths on the forum. It's that simple. Anyone that doesn't like it is welcome to their opinion. I hope that doesn't sound too harsh? :o

I trust that you're not this sensitive in every day affairs? There's more cursing on women's forums than I've ever done here. So if the word bull$hit is just way too offending, maybe being locked in a bubble and avoiding people in public and over the Internet is a better option. Must be another overly sensitive liberal :rolleyes:

How about we ban cursing now? Try going over to Europe and bringing that overly sensitive American attitude.....they'll laugh.

I've been to Europe plenty of times - spent a lot of time in cruder areas (actually sought them out sometimes) in Paris, Dublin, Munich - basically everywhere. Perhaps things have changed, but while they definitely were more liberal regarding nudity, and they do laugh at us for plenty of other reasons, I didn't hear more cursing. We kind of have a stranglehold on that in many parts of the U.S.

And no one would argue with you that cursing is the way many people choose to emphasize their points on the internet, but if you can win people over to your views without it, you are even more impressive.

Typical backward Southerners, not embracing unbridled swearing on all fronts. What will they think of next, going to church and closing their chicken restaurants on Sunday?

I am sooooooooooooooo thankful we are on the same page Leon. That is the #1 reason I won't frequent another board that recently popped up within the last 4 years. Seems like the few times I 'visited' it, that is all I heard! I felt like I was amongst junior high kids who cursed like the dickens because they were out of their parents earshot and just thought it was cool. Not that I a prude or anything, but you can make your point without resorting to all the vulgarities.

Cursing.
 

Well my opinion, if I met someone new and he/she curses frequently then I automatically make the assumption they are of lower intelligence (even though they could be very well brilliant). Also, it makes me believe that they are probably melodramatic. All in all, cursing is just an unintelligent way to emphasize a point. Don't get me wrong I will curse here and there, but on this forum I try and not curse only because I respect the members and that's just how I was raised...

All in all, when it comes to it I can care less about what other people say on this forum when it comes to cursing. If they want to be "that guy" then let them do it. I don't think it's necessary to call someone out because of cursing. It's not like we're in elementary school...

By the way, I've lived in Orange County, CA for 20 years and 2 years in Oklahoma. I'd say the Midwest people don't cuss nearly as much as California people. That's just my opinion.

That is hilarious. Being from Texas, my introduction to the 'deep South' as a 28-yr old, was a huge culture shock. I've thoroughly enjoyed being able to live for extended periods in so many areas of the U.S. that are so culturally different from one another.

These discussion forums allow a blend of these different cultures that wasn't possible before the internet, and that we aren't always very aware of - it causes friction that should be expected. Not a bad thing - just something that we are still working through.

Swearing is actually awesome. I do it constantly.

But I'm also a southerner so I know better than to swear around people when I don't know what their preference towards swearing is...on this board, for example.

It's just not polite.

You might want to watch it.....Glenn is a 3rd generation mob family member!!!





:)

I cuss frequently but not in the wrong places or around children or elderly people. Mostly amongst friends or family, in a humorous way. Or if I'm $%#@$% pissed about something :D

Sincerely, Clayton

:D:D:D
Glenn, I look forward to meeting you in person at the National.

I post this link just in fun and mean not to offend anyone.:)https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1HMCQKdJc20
Dave:eek:

Jerry Seinfeld once said that swearing was like a Corvette.

I try to never curse period. I do end up using "minor" curse words occasionally but not as part of my normal vocabulary, I've used the f-word before very very very very infrequently, but my goal is to never curse.

I'm proud when my kids point out that they have never heard me curse.

Some call it being raised in a bubble, I call it common courtesy.

Ironically I work in construction and foul language is very very common. The guy who actually owns the company I work for uses the f-word in at least every third sentance.

Actually cursing bothers me 1% and perplexes me 99%. Why do people do it? I'm only an amatuer psychologist but I've often thought alot of cursing is done to mask some insecurity. Never really looked into it though ;)