Todd,
Tell us what you really think!

edited out for political comments.

Sorry, I agree politics doesn't belong here but I'm not gonna let a suckerpunch go without response.

BTW, I agree that we should probably cut MOK some slack, as he seems to do more good than harm and we can't always get we want. It does sting to hear/read that this forum is anyway tainted in its racial views on the Wagner card though. As many have said, it is so laughably clear that the Ohio card is a buck fifty reprint with some "work" done that the matter really does not make for debate.

Amen to that. This hobby needs muckrakers more like Michael O'Keeffe.

As for the Wagner in question, what really needs to happen is that Cobb & Edwards need to agree to have their card scanned with a super high resolution scanner and compare it to a high resolution scans of a known legitimate Wagner where the print nuances can be scrutinized at a macroscopic level. I'm very confident the controversy will go away once the card is reviewed in this manner.

Run to the compound Jason!!! We're coming to get you!!

Whether or not you believe their card is real (I don't) I am still not sure why we have to categorize them. Can't they be just two guys trying to sell a fake?

I think this is what Mr. Okeeffe was referring to is that we can't seem to get away from their skin color.

I love these political rants... Amazing how whatever side someone takes, it usually resorts to name calling and insults. I've seen even the most seasoned posters over the years end up in the ER to get their fingers dislodged from the keyboard because they end up typing so hard and so vehemently...

Back to the original topic/point/rant... MOK does has some positive benefit for the hobby, but it seems that his slant is as jaundiced as the political rants we've recently witnessed. The message often gets lost as a result of the contempt that is held within the message.

There's no denying Mastro pulled more than his share of stunts. Damning. No doubt about it. But I cannot believe that I am supposed to take MOK seriously when he recycles the same tired mantra while ignoring the transgressions of others that he DEFINITELY is aware of. Sad that slime sells, but it does.

No, actually, your last Political post was the one before that one. I edited this one out because that is what I said I was going to do. If you want to remain on this board you will cut the politics out. I don't think I had said..."ok, everybody but Jason has to quit making political remarks."

Yes, good point. They are two guys trying to sell a fake Wagner. And as I told Okeefe on the phone, they haven't done anything wrong (yet)....but if the card Does sell, then they will be fraudsters, regardless of the color of their skin. And that is wrong.

Do they really need to be qualified by the color of their skin? I do not see anyone else on this thread or any other being referred to by their race or ethnicity.

Back to the topic...There is a need in the hobby for someone to be reporting the dark side but even O'Keeffe refers to his own efforts as stories. I thought that was an interesting word choice. He intentionally reports selectively and I would rather read what is complete and accurate.

I already addressed that. Did you not see my response or ignore it?

Yeah, I know...where is it? Who won it? Where did the money go that you collected? I never saw a followup post, I must have missed it.

I think the main issue with the Cobb and Edwards "Wagner" is why it has been given so much attention. People try to pass off fake Wagners on ebay all the time, with the description "most likely a reprint, but it WAS found in an old estate sale and does not say reprint anywhere..." I can remember watching the original piece on HBO's Real Sports and being very interested at the beginning of the program. And then they showed the card and I literally laughed out loud. Anyone who says that they cant tell for sure if it's real or if it's fake needs to spend a little more time checking out what a real T206 looks like. Race has absolutely nothing to do with the issue, other than the fact that I don't believe that Cobb and Edwards would have received nearly the attention that they have if they were just two white bozos as they wouldn't be able to play "the card collecting establishment just doesn't want to believe us" card. Just my opinion.

No, your memory is right Jim, and this is also on page 155 in the book "The Card". Edward's response to the claim was (according to "The Card"):

"That's more bull$#it",,,"He wouldn't have accused us of stealing his card if we were white".(race card?)

Also from "The Card", page 154....Cobb: "It's like we won the lottery and we can't cash the ticket".

That about sums up the persistent effort to turn the fake into the real thing. Believe me, if the card were real, they would've already hit "pay day"; collectors with deep pockets would've already offered them plenty of money for the card.

Sincerely, Clayton

Dan

Go read all the previous posts and you will find your answer. Out of $800+ collected after refunds of those who backed out it was all donated through a local group. I am not going to re-hash the old threads. If you had participated thanks. If not, then why bring it up? The Mantle was only to go if all lots were sold....thus bringing the total amount for help alot higher. It was explained before a year ago when it blew up. Nothing to do with a blatant fake wagner and two cons trying to get publicity on it. I thought this was about Wentz, Nash, and Mastro?

Jason

I agree with this. Let's please stay on topic. There is enough bickering to go around for everyone. But anything not pertaining to the original post, in this thread, lets take it to another thread, please.

It's wrong to knowingly try to sell a fake Wagner. I realize you disagree (that they knew it was fake), but even if you ignore what MW said, their excuses for not taking it to SGC or PSA or complete B.S., and should clue people in as to their knowledge and intent.

As far as ignoring them, it's the media that has to do that - the media is what's keeping this stupid story alive, not us. We have ignored them several times, but making excuses for them in a book certainly hasn't helped. Maybe he's a great guy and doing all sorts of wonderful things for our hobby, but with regards to this reprint Wagner, he played the angle that would sell the most books.

Any of us could do all sorts of positive things for the hobby, but make a mistake and everyone on the board is eating you alive. I've enjoyed that experience several times, as has Jeff. Not that I'm claiming I've done anything all that positive, but if I did....you'd still roast me if I took a misstep :)

Travis, I was using common sense, but I realize that law isn't all common sense - maybe one of the board lawyers will chime in here. My thinking was that if the buyer ended up in court with the card, that if SGC or PSA stated that it was not authentic, their opinion could be used as expert testimony that would trump the Canadian slab that it is currently in. That was the 'restitution' I was referring to, but maybe I used the wrong term, or maybe I'm wrong. If I'm wrong, that would explain why Cobb and Edwards keep going with this - I thought it was just pure stupidity or that they were enjoying the attention.

Originally Posted by Runscott
All pure bullshit.

Their model is unworkable if the goal is to sell the card and for it to stay sold. Anyone foolish enough to buy it would immediately turn around and submit it to PSA or SGC, at which time it would be declared a reprint, a lawsuit would ensue and the judge would order restitution...at the very least. For now they can enjoy their ill-gotten moment in the sun (thanks to people like MOK), but they can't sell the card.

agreed, but the buyer of the autograph that failed psa also thought he was using common sense to demand his money back when psa provided a letter of rejection but no proof that the signature was bad. That seller failed in his quest to strong arm a dealer based simply on a psa letter of rejection and nothing else. he lost. All i wanted to say is psa and the others are not the be-all end-all final word.

They never prove anything, with autographs it is always weasel words for the rejection letter. undulation, misaligned baseline, improper shading, patching, oversize, undersize, etc. all words that mean nothing.

so taking PSA's word as gospel is ridiculous. We have corrected them on way more than one ocassion, try hundreds of times, and with cards i don't see why it would be any different. Again, this is not in regard to this specific cobb wagner card, but in general, the card is probably bogus, but psa or sgc saying it is bogus doesnt make it any more bogus just as cobb edwards saying it is authentic doesnt make it any more authentic.

Only proof can prove/disprove the card, and PSA doesn't provide or at least disclose any proof to back up their opinions. They hand down their opinion from mount olympus on high and expect you to just "trust" them. we have seen how many bogus autographs that trust has breached in the past, the laser prints, the stamps, the autopens, the secretarials. Someone show me how cards would be any different?

I hope slabbed autographs are different - there are a lot more respected autograph authenticators, and while it shouldn't be the case, opinions are much more subjective. Grading might be subjective, but authenticity isn't, and PSA and SGC are recognized as experts in that area. The fly-by-night Canadian company probably wouldn't be (as much).

Ten Pages Without A Picture Of A Card????
 

http://imagehost.vendio.com/a/204295...YAUTOS_NEW.JPG



.....Every nine pages there must be a scan of a pre-war baseball card ; read the rules.

Maybe the nicest Greenberg pose I have ever seen.

Absolutely agreed. Gorgeous.

-Al

Leon,

If you're going to erase political posts, why not erase the ones with racist undertones. They are a serious embarrassment to the hobby, and in my opinion, the very reason this Cobb Edwards story is so fascinating to the media.

I've seen the old posts, and some of these new ones are approaching that level. It's insulting to our intelligence to think we cant read between the lines, if any board members don't mind being considered along those lines, fine. I just want to make it clear that I think it's pretty sick.

Your opinion is duly noted.

Let me give my brief reasoning not to delete other things.

1. I hate deleting anything from the board except operational issues.
2. I said anything more, politically related, would be deleted.
3. The original post had some issues surrounding race.....not politics.

I have once or twice seen people post racially related posts, specifically during the the Wagner card debates-- perhaps they were trying to be funny or cute or satiric or whatever. My first impressions was that the stuff was uncalled for and had no place on this board. My second thought was 'What kind of tone deaf numbskull would post that?' Whatever your religious or political views, you don't give a speech to a Lutheran church group and slip in a few F-bombs.

David, that was worse than my Becket references

"I Totally Agree... I'll go $100!"

As Always...

So Denny,now that you guys are bidding on this fake Wagner, how long will it be until someone tries to sell a fake of this fake?

Baseball cards have no race.

Leon,

Thanks for posting the indictment.

So what's to stop other AHs from doing the exact same thing as Mastro did?

The software used by most AHs these days is created by a third party and it doesn't allow the AH to see your max bid. Certain AHs, Heritage and Hunt's, allow house bidding so buyer beware.

lol

I think Mike O is a good guy who has done his best tackling a "beat" that means a lot to us and diddly-squat to nearly everyone else on the planet. Before pillorying him for what he doesn't report, please consider the fact that he does not report in a vacuum or with total autonomy. What gets published is not his decision alone. He has an editor and publisher who have to want the story out there and have to approve it before it runs.

As for Cobb-Edwards and their Bogus Honus, their race should be irrelevant but I wonder if their race and socioeconomic class aren't part of the reason why their story gets so much play. Perhaps their narrative is more compelling than that of the dozens of morons trying to sell fake T206 Wagners all of the time because it contrasts so vividly against the backdrop of a wealthy, predominantly white collecting base?

Nm

Edited.

It grows old responding for the straw men. I seriously doubt they are allowed in the courtroom, so why bring them in here?

Well for me we were only at page 2. You are only at 10 pages if you haven't changed your "Thread Display Options" to show 80 posts per page (the max allowed). :D

left and right
 

id be willing to bet my left one and my right one(nut that is)...to you that if it is hosted on a linux server i could easily tap into the database and reverse whatever basic max bid protections are in place, if any.

kevin

Fine, I don't know what I'm talking about.... Until I find more dealers that are willing to sell stuff for what I want to pay, I'll keep going this "auction" route... Although we can't really call them auctions, right?

Is it really that simple? I can say I have items from 5 AHs is the past year and 4 went below my veiling bid.

Probably. The software has to store the info somewhere, and once you're in the file system finding the databse shouldn't be all that hard. Just like finding tracking cookies or something in your browser cache.

If the company that wrote the auction software didn't encrypt that database all the info will be right there. If they did but were lazy and used a default it might take a bit longer.

That's a big part of why nothing on the internet is truly secure.

Knowing the high bids and doing something about it are two different things.
I met someone who had writtent heir own software to interface with Ebay that let them see high bids there. If it was over what they wanted to pay they knew not to waste the time, if it was under they knew approximately how high to bid. They used it as a buying tool. That was before most people went to sniping services. And Ebay eventually figured it out and put an end to it.

Steve B

Steve B

resonse to jasond08
 

Originally Posted by jasond08
mr. O'keefe

my guess is that you are a liberal obama supporter. Just curious.....where do you stand on gun control and minimum wage??

JASON

I AM A PROUD OBAMA SUPPORTER, AND DAMN PROUD TO BE A LIBERAL !!

KEEP YOUR TEABAG RIGHT WING POLITICS OUT OF BASEBALL POSTS

LIBERAL BILL LATZKO TIL THE DAY I DIE!!
VIVA CHE GUEVARA!!

Be proud somewhere else then !

I'm a conservative Baptist minister. I'm also a collector of vintage baseball cards. I don't think I've ever had the urge to scream THE COBB BACK IS NOT A T206!!! during a church service or political discussion.

Liberal Bill Latzko has been given an infraction and suspended for 1 week, for this comment, or until I remember to let him back, whichever is later.

What was the topic again???
 

Wow, has this thread taken some twists and turns!! :D

By my count we've covered:

Nash, Wentz & Mastro
Cobb & Edwards
Racism
conservative politics
liberal politics
Michael O'Keefe
Auction House Shilling (c'mon, someone bring up Curt Schilling and the bloody sock or his failed 38 Studios!!)
Computer Hacking of Auction House Software
Spelling
REA, SGC, PSA
Great '70's sitcoms
and the highlight for me - a BEAUTIFUL Hank Greenberg card.

Now that is a thread that went far afield....

@Leon.....Don't let him back in until he learns to use upper AND lower case letters.....

Still missing a decent Seinfeld reference. And NOIZE. Definitely need to bring on DA NOIZE!

This thread also correctly pointed out that some of us here, "intrinsically value pictures of long dead sporting men."

Additionally, there was a reference made to an, "illiterate, feces-flinging monkey."

Two pretty memorable quotes, in my opinion. I know I won't forget them.

:D

Best Regards,

Eric

Wow. I've always found it ironic/hypocritical/etc that those who tout Che Guevara as a hero never want to "redistribute" their collection to those of us with lesser means to afford them. Perhaps capitalism only suits them when they are the ones in line to make a buck? :D

Well, I'd definitely like to redistribute some Cuban cards into my collection...

At least he made it to 300 posts!

My guess is that he read Jason's posts, they infuriated him (as it did many of us), and he responded without reading farther down the page. :)

Many others read Jason's posts, took a deep breath and moved on as well.

I say this is all seriousness
 

Can someone please fill me on the 1952 Mantle story. In other words, I forgot to ask Leon about this today :)

Rich

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...2+topps+mantle

I should have respected the rules of political comments and refrained my jab in the response to Richard. For that I apologize.....as for the Sanford & Sons comment I stand corrected as well considering ole Red Fox (God rest his soul) had more class than these two clowns. Of course some would assume Sanford & Sons to be a racial slur as most with like minds do without asking. I actually was comparing the two morons as "junk dealers" trying to pass of trash and the first thought that came to mind was Sanford.

Rich, as for the Mantle the idea was to raise some funds for a Tornado last year. The goal was to send out packs of misc. cards to say thanks with a chance to win an authentic 52 Mantle IF ALL packs sold raising a large amount of funds for the community. However, it got derailed over on CU and vomited all over here as well and became a train wreck. I am not going to re-hash this or try to explain anything for its old news. Only a few packs were in fact sold raising $800 or so (I actually refunded a bunch back when some jerks tried to make accusations) were sold thus realizing that no way we would sell these all to make conducive to include Mick. I was greatful for what we raised and most that gave were happy and very thoughtful. These are my last and final comments on this and again I sincerely apologize to Leon and other members for throwing out a political grenade on a baseball card forum. We are all bound together by a fun hobby and it should stay that way. Happy collecting.

Jason

I know I contributed to your venture last year
 

And would have done so even without the Mantle being included -- but morally, once you said the card was going to be included, despite any potential loss to yourself, you should ahve included the card for those who did contribute.

Just MOO

Rich

Rich

Read the threads in entirety. People misunderstood. I am not re-hashing this.

Jason