|
Quote:
Are all guys who tested or will test positive one time be forever excluded- A Rod? Had Ryan Braun's pee not been mishandled, would he forever be excluded? If someone rats out a player that's already been inducted, does he get thrown out? I don't know the answers, but do think this is going to damage the hall's (and its voting methods/criteria) image, because this will all be very polarizing for years to come. |
Quote:
Just read this... http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/201...mlb/index.html |
Quote:
|
They all enjoyed the fruits of their labors, the cheering, the adulation, the money. Being denied entrance to the Hall of Fame seems a small price to pay to me for their choice. They made a choice, they are now dealing with the fallout. Not being voted in doesn't mean Bonds isn't the all-time HR leader, it just means that a lot of folks and most of the voters don't regard it as legitimate. Baseball has a huge mess on their hands, that is their just desserts for turning their head and trading legitimacy for increased crowds and revenue. All hands and I mean all are dirty, unfortunately for the players there is a mechanism for people to express their displeasure. Sanctimonious, maybe but certainly understandable and I agree with voting no one in. I don't agree because you can't prove anything that you have to act like it never happened.
|
so if they dont let these guys in.....who from the PED - era will they let in?
|
Quote:
|
Quote:
Others about whom there is suspicion but maybe less damning will take a little longer than normal just as a way of saying and identifying them with the era. |
Quote:
|
Quote:
|
Quote:
Steroids don't make you hit the ball - Yes, steroids do actually improve your vision, and thus your hand-eye coordination. But let's not forget that added strength also improves bat speed, which is pretty important in hitting. Palmeiro had the bat speed of a little leaguer at the start of the season he got his 3000th, then all of a sudden he's whipping it through the zone. Magic? It boggles my mind that people don't want to admit that "performance enhancing" drugs enhance your performance! There must be SOME reason guys take them, right? I doubt it's only because they want their "boys" to shrink and take 10 years off their lives. Not against the rules - I didn't know baseball had to implement a rule for players to know they shouldn't do it. I don't think baseball has a rule in place for pulling out a gun and shooting a guy trying to steal second, so it must be OK. That'll teach you Juan Pierre! Was it not enough that the U.S. government made steroids ILLEGAL? I think U.S. law trumps the baseball rulebook. Gaylord Perry- The old standby for every steroid defender. Perry pitched in a different era when emery boards and vaseline were considered cute. He got grandfathered so to speak. Did he cheat? Hell yes he did. But for whatever reason there has always been a certain amount of inconsistency in the way people viewed what he did and the negative stigma of steroids. In either event, two (or twenty) wrongs don't make a right. Perry's induction doesn't pave the way for enshrining other cheaters. Ritalin/amphetamines/eye surgery/etc. - Quite simply, to compare a medical procedure like eye surgery to steroids is about as apples and oranges as you can get. That's like saying if a guy hits the gym 5 days a week, he has an unfair advantage over the guy who goes 3 times a week. There are shades of gray, and the effects any of these things has on ones performance compared to what steroids can do is miles apart. Quote:
|
Well, there was one player on the ballot that I KNOW was clean - he wouldn't, and still doesn't, even touch drinks with caffeine in them - DALE MURPHY. His vote total went up 4.1% over his 2012 vote - the highest rise of anyone on the ballot - but too little, too late.
|
Take steroids = get stronger, body changes
Tommy John Surgery = arm stronger, body changes |
Quote:
|
Quote:
5-6 years ago my wife, girlfriend at the time, was an associate at a law firm, which was hired by MLB during the Mitchell Investigation. She and her boss interviewed several people, including an MLB team owner, president, GM, and several others- Dr's/training staff/clubhouse staff, etc. A partner at their firm Christmas party told me he was taking calls daily from various media members offering him large $$$ to leak report info and names from the list. He said some were 6 figure offers, and though he didn't name a reporter or network, seemed to intimate ESPN was one. This made and still makes me sick. Eventually, as we all know confidential grand jury testimony was leaked (I think by a court clerk).. then names seemingly came out 1-2 at a time over the course of weeks/months.. maximizing media coverage. Now I watch creepy guys like Pedro Gomez, who stalked Bonds for 2 years+ get on his high horse over why he won't vote for Bonds/Clemens/etc and keep picturing him or someone in his profession offering other people huge chunks of money for illegal information. Are these guys in the media really the best judges? (please pardon me if any of you are Pedro fans, but I got very sick of he and his camera crew sitting or standing 10 feet from my season seats every freaking night). |
First, Mr. Biggio deserved enough votes to get in...
Next, I think that with the passage of time, the writers' bitterness toward that generation of PED users will soften a bit. Some of what was done was acceptable at the time, but is deemed wrong from today's perspective. With that waning of bitterness a few more folks will get the votes. I think that Jake is right about Tim Wakefield, I think it's likely that he didn't use PED's. Way back there where it was mentioned that Rose and Jackson get in... BS on that. Anyone even remotely thinking there's merit in that would benefit from reading The Fix is In, by Daniel Ginsberg, an exceptionally enlightening baseball book. If a fella's belly hurts, reckon he needs an appendectomy? Maybe an average fella shouldn't decide that, maybe he should get the enlightened, educated opinion of a doctor. And, reading The Fix is In is the way to have that similar, knowledgeable perspective. Rose should get in whenever he buys an admission ticket, and for that day only, as a patron... Joe's deceased, he doesn't get in at all. |
Quote:
TJ Surgery = the arm "heals" but the rest of your body doesn't change (also known as correcting a medical condition) Comparing the two is assinine. |
A line that separates for me is whether or not something is illegal. Tommy John surgery is legal, while taking steroids to improve athletic performance is illegal.
A footnote is that no one who had Tommy John surgery is in the Hall of Fame either. Including Tommy John. |
Quote:
|
Quote:
+1 |
Agree
Quote:
+1 |
Quote:
|
Both Tommy John Surgery etc and Steroids enhance a players performance and I believe neither were against the rules at the time. These are both facts.
Just as you can't compare the Deadball era against other era's stats. You can't compare the Steroid era either. You just pick out the best players from that era and put the top 1% in the Hall of Fame. |
Quote:
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/etick.../memos20051109 |
Poor Cooperstown
All I know is that because of the ramifications of no one getting in this year, the small town (which primarily relys heavily on revenue from the inductions) will take a serious hit by the outcome of this vote. It was there pride and joy come induction day.
|
Hof
I am laughing at all of the questions about who took steroids and who did not. The fact is that all of the players benefited from steroid use whether they took them or they did not. How many players have world series rings because they looked the other way when some of their teammates were using steroids? How many players received more salary because of the increased fan base during the McGwire/Sosa era?
In my opinion the players who weren't using are just as guilty as the players who were using. Why did they feel it was right to look the other way when a teammate was breaking the law or breaking the rules? Do you let someone commit a crime just because they are a teammate? What if the crime was something other than taking steroids, would they let a teammate get away with rape or stealing? Even if it wasn't a crime - do you let someone get away with cheating? Being on the same team doesn't make it OK to let someone cheat. It needed to be addressed in the locker room or if it was a crime then it should be have reported to the police. I love baseball and I hate to see the way the steroid use has degraded the integrity of the game, but I was very happy to see that no one was elected. And to all of the players out there - have you ever heard of doing the right thing? Shouldn't your integrity and honesty mean more to you than some peer pressure from your co-workers? How can you expect your children to stand up to peer pressure when you could not? Just my two cents. Rick |
Quote:
Given the injury history of many of these players, I guarantee many of them were on a steroid at some point. I also think that at some point McGwire would've received a medical exemption. However, he's an odd case, because he was certainly also using before it became a medical necessity for him.. Anyways. here's an interesting article about the league exemptions. And there appears to be a pattern forming with ADHD drugs.. http://deadspin.com/5964744/1-in-10-...ll-this-season http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/m...ositive-113012 |
Nailed it for me...
Quote:
|
Quote:
Maybe Barry or McGwire can show the prescription their doctor wrote for them, but I'm guessing they acquired their drugs from a juicehead at the local gym...not exactly the method most would use who have a legitimate medical condition. |
Quote:
Mac definitely juiced. After the nagging injuries in '93 and '94, I believe he would've been able to receive an exemption though. But that's irrelevant because he was already using anyways. I wouldn't hold the Andro over him either. It was sold over the counter, and the government didn't even categorize it as a steroid until 2004.. Again though, that's also irrelevant because of previous use.. I'm just saying that there were probably a number of players who could've been granted an exemption. IF you were to know what current players have legitimately been granted exemptions, would you hold it over them? |
Novakjr,
The reason testing wasn't implemented was because Bud Selig (and a couple of other owners) staged a palace coup and caused Fay Vincent to resign as Commissioner. Vincent sent out a seven page letter stating that steroids were illegal in baseball. The problem was, baseball was in the middle of their agreement with the players and implementing rules against steroids and having a testing program would have meant opening up the collective bargaining agreement and putting the rules in. The owners didn't want to do that. They wanted to wait until the next bargaining session. The problem with that was Selig and Reinsdorf got a no confidence vote against Vincent and Vincent resigned (with Selig taking over as acting Commissioner). So, the next time contract negotiations came up, Selig was in charge and he said NOTHING about steroids and testing. Therefor, a new contract was in place an no testing was implemented. Selig COULD have stopped this mess before it started but he didn't. That is why I laugh at him for the mess baseball is currently in. David |
Quote:
|
Quote:
|
Quote:
But you can't ignore history!!!! It happened. The Hall just needs to be truthful (on the plaques), and recognize the "Steroid Era" as the time when players, owners, executives, coaches, AND fans were in transition about how the game should evolve. And it was exciting as hell!! (For awhile). We eventually came to our senses. |
Quote:
Over a 3-4 year period 3 of them hit a plateau while one was able to consistently build muscle/body mass, to the point he'd gained about 60 lbs. He also gained about 10 MPH on his fastball and ended up in the big leagues throwing nearly 100 MPH. A good buddy of mine was a really good football player and was invited to 2-3 camps with the 49ers. He never made the team, and eventually ended up in the XFL. He'd tell me about guys who would get stronger after weeks of hot practice when everyone was else was wearing down.. And those guys separated themselves from the others. He knew several guys were juicing, and several were playing, making teams, getting paid in large part because of it. The focus always seems to be on 5-6, maybe 10 guys who are the best of the best and threatening this or that record... And in a game like baseball its understandable since records are so sacred, but I think the far more expansive problem lies within the fringes and the hundreds/thousands of players who have to face a choice to use or not. Guys who see people flying past them in the minors, or an NFL training camp, and see their dream opportunity slipping away. I guess this has very little to do with the hall vote, so may not even be relevant to this conversation, but I do think it deserves more attention in general. |
The PROBLEM with picking out the best players from the Steroid Era is that BECAUSE of the steroids no one REALLY KNOWS WHO the best players were during that era.
As a hypothetical example, compare Mark McGwire to Wally Joyner. Both played First Base. Both played in the American League. Both played on the West Coast. Both played during the late 1980's and early 1990's. Now, if you compare their stats, you would say that Mark McGwire is more deserving of the Hall Of Fame because he hit many more Home Runs. But what if McGwire juiced and Joyner didn't? What if McGwire didn't take steroids or some other PED and he didn't hit 583 Home Runs. What if he hit 50 or maybe even 100 fewer Home Runs because he wasn't on the juice? How would Joyner and McGwire compare then? What if because he took steroids, McGwire was on the All Star team more and had more MVP votes? Take away the steroids, reduce the number of Home Runs (and Runs scored, RBIs, Walks, Slugging Percentage and OPS) and guess what? McGwire doesn't look like a much better player than Joyner. In fact, take those things away and Joyner may have made more All Star team and gotten more MVP votes. So add those to his stats and maybe Joyner looks like a more deserving Hall Of Fame candidate than McGwire. But, because of steroids, Human Growth Hormone and other PEDS, we wont know who was helped because they cheated and who were hurt because they didn't and we wont know the extent of either. In short, we wont REALLY know WHO the BEST players were during that era. So, I am in favor of NONE of them getting in. Unless, of course, these players want to come forward and say the are clean and then take tests to prove it. Or, they want to come forward, admit they cheated, tell exactly what they did and then have people judge them for it. David |
Wally Joyner? Where's the love for Eric Karros? At one point, dude had 30+ HR's and 100 RBI's five times in a six year stretch. And didn't make ANY all star teams. Now that's a guy who got raped by the steroid era. At least Joyner got 1 All star game.
|
Quote:
Quote:
|
To me there is no question who the best players of the steroid era are. They are Ken Griffey Jr, Frank Thomas, Jim Thome, and Albert Belle.
|
Quote:
|
Quote:
|
Quote:
|
| All times are GMT -6. The time now is 10:31 PM. |