It's the same libertarian philosophy that you're espousing in your other posts.

It's true that I'm a Libertarian, but I still didn't understand your analogies, and I don't think they reflect a Libertarian philosophy, and certainly not mine.

You gave very extreme examples, none of which reflected my thoughts. If you re-read any of my posts in this thread, you should know exactly how I feel about this subject, but if you don't, just state what you have a problem with, and I'll respond. I don't think I've hidden from anything in this thread.

edited to add: Also, I agree with you about the media attention.

So for the people saying assault rifles should be banned, say the guy drove his car through a group of kids and killed 15. Should we ban cars?

Also for anyone who thinks video games are part of the problem. I like many others have played violent video games, yet I haven't become a serial killer and killed people and I don't plan on it. So because acouple PEOPLE out of MILLIONS decide to kill others, doesn't mean guns or video games are the problem. If the guy didn't have a gun, he would have found other means to kill people.

So what's the difference between us and Western Europe where this doesn't seem to happen? If it's not the accessibility or pervasiveness of guns, then what is it?

Also he used two handguns, not a assault rifle which was left in the car.

And the fact that by some fortuity he did that, and it wasn't even worse than it was, means assault rifles are a good thing?

Again the guy would have found other ways to kill people without guns.

Brock--obviously, the violence of video games doesn't affect everyone who plays. However, even if it affects a small minority of the people, it is contributing to the increase in violence in our society. Is it the sole cause, no.
The news is reporting that the killer had some sort of mental disorder. Why were guns allowed in a house where someone like that would have access to the guys?
Apparently, the mother of the killer purchased these guns legally. Did anyone question why a teacher would need two hand guns and an assault rifle?

"If the guy didn't have a gun, he would have found other means to kill people."

Other than McVeigh, how many of these mass murderers have used any means other than guns? Just curious.

"Again the guy would have found other ways to kill people without guns."

I don't believe this reasoning!

I think Cy made a good point regarding the media attention.

This is horrific but it has happened in Western Europe, many times.

I thought when we went through this last time we found data showing the murder rates were much much lower in Western Europe and places like Canada and Australia, and weren't some of the Western European episodes terrorism, but if I am wrong I stand corrected.

Taking a SHIT on the Bill of Rights is not going to fix the problem. There have been mass murders in this world since the beginning of time. It didn't start when the US gave the people the right to bear arms.

I do not think guns in general should be banned. With that said, what is the purpose of having assault guns? These types of guns are so distrunctive that in anyone's hands, they are too much power. When our constitution was written, assault guns did not exist. Second amendment was good for the time but should not apply to assault weapons. No civilian uses these to hunt game or protect their home! They are used strictly for killing. Even if they were used for hunting, there would be the ethical debate of what is sport and what is overkill. They need to be banned as they serve no useful purpose.

What about the Bath School Bombing where 45 people were killed(38 kids).

These rifles they are using really aren't assault rifles, they should only be able to shot single rounds(not fully auto).

Video games are simply another outlet among many - you could ban or severely restrict them and there would be no shortage of comic books, movies, or internet sites that would fill the void quickly. The problem is that in a number of families, the kids are spending a great deal more time with the television and video games than they are with their parents. Nothing can substitute for having parents who are involved in a child's life.

Peter made a good point previously about old western shows actually being quite violent, and toy guns being prevalent. The violence is certainly more graphic these days, but I would argue that the lower level of parental involvement is a much larger factor.

Times are different than when the Bill of Rights was written. Maybe it needs to be updated. There is no reason for private citizens to own assault rifles or semi-automatic weapons (which by the way didn't exist when the Bill of Rights was written).

Why shouldn't a private citizen be able to own a assault rifle. I would like to own one and someday I will buy one. But it doesn't mean I plan on killing others with it.

Brock-why do you want to own an assault rifle? What would you do with it?

I'm not a hunter, but it's fine that other people are, and I wouldn't take way their guns. I think all the animals I eat are beaten to death in pens, so no guns are necessary.

I did own a Ruger single-six .22, and I loved shooting cans in the canal. In fact, I'm looking for another one. I also like the idea of owning a .44 Blackhawk, and I could rationalize that it's for protecting myself when the end of the world occurs and I have to move to the mountains of Idaho, but the real reason is that it feels good to shoot a really big gun.

Assault rifles I don't get. If it comes to the point that I need one of those to protect myself, it's too late.

That's bullshit. If you can't hunt without using an assault rifle, you aren't much of a hunter or sportsman. I suppose you also need an extra large clip in case someone tries to break into your house, right? Maybe the 28th shot is the one that gets it done? Spare me.

This is the best post I've seen today. True, I'm on my second pint at the local pub, but this is still hilarious.

I'm visualizing Brock using his assault rifle and the Red Sox are involved.

I enjoy guns and think they're fun to shoot. I just think it would be cool to own a AK-47 or a M-16, but my real joy would be a Tommy gun(only single burst not fully).

Stick around for another few years and you will find out. My father-in-law is ex-CIA and he tells of things that would make you lose sleep for the rest of your life.

Still doesn't justify assault guns. If you want to see how good of a shot someone really is, try a muzzleloader.

That is where my Barrett .50 cal sniper rifle comes into play.

Oh do tell I love conspiracy theories!! Does this one involve the Illuminati or just Obama? :D

Allowing minors, to be exposed to gruesome games like Call of Duty does not help either.

Ok so lets say someone goes and shoots up a school with a muzzleloader or a .22, should we then ban them??? Or like I mentioned already, say the guy drove his car through a group of kids and killed 15. Should cars be banned to a limit then? I'm sure more people are killed by stupid people driving a year then stupid people with guns.

What part do you have problems comprehending? It is a pretty simple reasoning.

If you live in an urban area and feel the need to own assault rifles, imo there's something wrong with you and I hope you're not my neighbor someday.

Ok, i'm ready for the onslaught of retaliatory insults.

Again video games are not the problem, it's crazy people.

Also if i did buy a assault rifle, it would be when im back in the country and could shot in my back yard and not in a urban area.

Brock--you are raising an argument that has nothing to do with this. The question is if banning assault weapons would save lives and, to that question, I think the answer is yes.

Yes it can be done, not saying it can't, but which do you think is more likely to result in more deaths all things being equal: a guy with multiple guns or a guy with a knife?

That may be the single stupidest post of the day, if not the year. Do you serioiusly think the shooter is going to kill 27 people with a muzzleloader? If so, you are an idiot. If not, your post is disingenious at best. If you are going to argue the merits of owning assault rifles, at least come up with an argument that isn't completely ridiculous.

Well you're talking about banning assault rifles. Even though he didn't use a assault rifle. Either way, what ever weapon he used or the other people have used before too many innocent people have died for nothing.

Unlike many of you here, I'm not a father. I do have 4 nephews and 1 niece though who are very dear to my heart. I can't imagine what it'd be like to lose them in a place where they are supposed to be safest. In school. Like some of you have said, I never once felt unsafe in school. Its really a sad day when we have to worry about sending kids to school for fear that one of us may get that phone call that a little one we hold near and dear to our hearts will no longer grace us with their presence on this Earth.

"It is a pretty simple reasoning."

Actually, it's simple minded reasoning. What would the killer have done today? Run over his mother with a car. Then go to the school, wait for the kids to get out, and then try to run them over? My sense is that a lot of lives could have been saved if his weapon was a car instead of several guns.

Cars serve a purpose in general. A single shot 22 or muzzleloader have limited firepower so you wouldn't have mass murder. As I said before I do not propose a ban on guns in general. I advocate a ban on assault weapons. They really serve no purpose in any society unless you are in a battle or a war. Don't think that senario exists in a school or movie theater where people have been killed by idiots using these weapons. Unless you are a soldier somewhere in the world, what's the purpose?

They are great deer, bear, elk, boar hunting guns.

He could have stabbed them, created a bomb, etc. I'm sure a sicko could come up with other ways.

Have you ever shot a bear and the first shot not take him down. Or how about a boar charging at you with it's tusks raised? Just stick to your arm chair hunting.

Isn't it more challenging to hunt with a less lethal weapon? I mean haven't people been hunting since time immemorial without assault rifles?

An assault rifle is a rapid-fire, magazine-fed automatic rifle designed for infantry use. Sounds like there are more appropriate ways to deer hunt.

Lol, I hunt pretrty frequently. What you're saying is you can't shoot, are a pussy, and need the extra firepower to make sure you don't get hurt. That is truly sporting. I can see why you need an assault weapon. Maybe you should try a bazooka. Think that will get it done?

My heart goes out to the families of loved ones lost in Connecticut today. Poor kindergarteners :( My oldest is in kindergarten.

guns - i don't own one but don't believe they should be banned. How many people did Ted Bundy kill? How many did he kill with a gun?

I agree with Scott and others - lets try to understand WHY those who want to kill think that way, and start there. Taking away peoples freedoms isn't the answer. Fix the problem, not the symptom.

god - I don't buy the argument that taking god out of school has anything to do with an increase in violence. How many wars were started because of "religion"? Probably a good portion.

violent video games - not the problem

baseball cards - not the problem

I do believe loving family helps. But even then there are cases of people's heads just not ticking right. Need to better understand WHY and see if there is a way to help them before something like this happens. Very tragic, I feel for the surviving parents and siblings who will be looking for answers. WHY? :( I'd give my life to bring back those kids, thats for sure.

edited to add: p.s. can we drop the assault weapon discussion? it has NOTHING to do with what happened today. N-O-T-H-I-N-G. Today would've happened with or without a ban on assault weapons

Bow hunting is definitely more challenging.

But do you guys realize most of these "Assault Rifles" are just rifles. You need a special license for fully auto and stuff. So it's not like these guys are shooting up the schools with machine guns. I'm not a expert in guns, but I'm sure there are hunting rifles that either have the same or higher caliber round then most assault rifles. Like the rifles I looked at buying(AK, M16,etc) are only single shot. So why so much hate against assault rifles.

He could have hacked her up with a $20 hatchet from Walmart and then spent another $50 or so and fire bombed the school.

You need a special license for a fully automatic rifle. These people are using those type of guns, they are using single shot guns and maybe three-round burst but im not sure if you need a license for three-round burst.

Most of the people here that are against ARs don't seem to be against other forms of guns. Why? In the US, assault rifles are not allowed to be fully automatic and the average rate of fire for a AR is 40-60 rpm. Anyone with some experience can take a semi automatic hand gun and shoot that many rounds off in a minute. Also most of the ARs shoot a NATO .223 with is very slightly larger than a .22. Where lots of hand guns shoot much larger shells and do much more damage. Please help me understand why you think ARs are so bad! Please give reasons and not emotions.

Exactly.

As a teenager, I know for a fact video games are a problem. My goodness, kids are up day and night, blowing off heads, stabbing, etc. I'm not saying video games are bad, but there are people who don't understand the term moderation. This addiction, and seeing blood and gore over and over is starting to make these kids immune to feeling remorse. Again, I am not saying all of kids, but honestly there are adolescents that people should be worried about.

Most, if not all, of the people who commit these mass-killings, are not rational mean people, or people trying to replicate what they saw in a video game. They are mid-20's men having a psychotic break, which almost always manifests itself in extreme anger. Perhaps they picked up some techniques in the video games, but they were going to do something extreme, regardless. I'm in agreement with others that the media exposure and gun availability make the event much more serious than it might be otherwise, but it's happening regardless.

I think you are probably right that the video games affect the thinking and behavior of otherwise normal kids, and that it probably has some bad consequences, but we're not talking events like in Aurora, Arizona, Portland or Connecticut.

Exactly! That's what I said in the Aurora thread and again earlier in this thread. People who want to continue to bash ARs ignore that fact. I love my 9mm. I own 7 guns and, by far, that is my favorite. If I found myself a victim of a situation as such in Aurora, I would rather have my 9mm over an AR any day.

I'm against any kind of gun that's designed for war. 40-60 rpm isn't something you need for deer-hunting or any other kind of sport hunting. And unless you are defending yourself from a hoard of invaders, you don't need 40-60 rpm for self-defense.

To me it's a cost/benefit thing - the costs to society outweigh the benefits to the individual - drastically.

David, you and I get along, so please don't take this the wrong way.

The last thing I would want in a situation like Aurora, is a guy I don't know, with a 9mm, or any other type of gun, trying to protect me 'just in case' a mass murderer happens to show up. Again, to me the costs outweigh the benefits.

A Texas Tommy would be more enjoyable.

shooting....
 

this is such a tragedy, i don't think we can even digest this yet...the horror of the families going thru right now i can not even imagine:eek:...my prayers are with those souls whose lives were tragically snuffed out.......my heart bleeds for them, and their families.....i am truly saddened.....and surprisingly speechless

No one is going to change my views or feelings towards my guns and I will probably not change yours so I will continue to conceal carry daily and purchase as many guns as I can. Why? Because that's what I enjoy.

When two guys break into my house, I dont want a gun that takes 10 seconds between shots. I want to be able to pull off 3-4 rounds as fast as possible before they can get to me. I'm not planning to shoot all 40-60 rounds but I want the first ones fast and to do that you need a gun with a high rate of fire.

Bet my arrow would have the same result at 20 feet. :-). Have you ever seen the movie "Deliverance"?

So tragic. When something like this happens it reminds me of the Brenda Spencer shooting spree. Bob Geldof said it best:

I Don't Like Mondays

The silicon chip inside her head
Gets switched to overload.
And nobody's gonna go to school today,
She's going to make them stay at home.
And daddy doesn't understand it,
He always said she was good as gold.
And he can see no reasons
'Cause there are no reasons
What reason do you need to be shown?
Tell me why?
I don't like Mondays.
Tell me why?
I don't like Mondays.
Tell me why?
I don't like Mondays.
I want to shoot
The whole day down.
The telex machine is kept so clean
As it types to a waiting world.
And mother feels so shocked,
Father's world is rocked,
And their thoughts turn to
Their own little girl.
Sweet 16 ain't that peachy keen,
No, it ain't so neat to admit defeat.
They can see no reasons
'Cause there are no reasons
What reasons do you need.. ooh
-ooh-ooh
Tell me why?
I don't like Mondays.
Tell me why?
I don't like Mondays.
Tell me why?
I don't like Mondays.
I want to shoot
The whole day down, down, down... shoot it all down
All the playing's stopped in the playground now
She wants to play with her toys a while.
And school's out early and soon we'll be learning
And the lesson today is how to die.
And then the bullhorn crackles,
And the captain tackles,
With the problems and the hows and whys.
And he can see no reasons
'Cause there are no reasons
What reason do you need to die, die, ooh...ooh?
Tell me why?
I don't like Mondays
Tell me why?
I don't like Mondays
Tell me why?
I don't like, I don't like, I don't like Mondays.
Tell me why?
I don't like, I don't like, I don't like Mondays.
Tell me why?
I don't like Mondays.
I want to shoot
The whole day down.

Okay, so what it comes down to is that you feel your need to defend yourself with such effectiveness outweighs the threat that such weapons pose to society if in the wrong hands.

I don't own a gun, and still feel totally safe in my home, so I of course would disagree with you, but it's not on my 'hugely passionate about' list.

But I would feel a helluva lot safer if I felt that as a society, we were making a bigger effort to treat the people with the problems BEFORE they started making the 'which weapon?' decision. That is something that I obviously AM passionate about.

Why is it, this long after the shooter has been identified, that the major news networks seem to have ZERO information about him? Didn't we know quite a bit about Loughner and Holmes almost immediately after they were identified?

So sad, just a terrible thing. Twenty children, as young as five, just indiscriminately killed. Imagine the horror for every little boy and girl who happened to be in the rooms. Teachers and administrators too. And the parents, the poor parents, and their extended family's and the childrens playmates.

My thoughts, my prayers and my tears go out to all.

I have many thoughts on what's been posted, but today is not the day.

Ah ok thanks.

Peter,

In my estimation, that's a good thing. I would be happy if the press never said anything about the shooter, he got no publicity whatsoever, and his name was buried for all time.

I really think the pub these guys get is part of what spurs the next guy with dreams of going down in history as a notorious mass murderer. If their names don't go down in history at all, I think that part of the impetus to go kill a bunch of people may be lost. That's my amateur psychological discussion for the evening.

I also understand that irrespective of whether or not I am correct, anonymity will never be granted mass murderers. News sells, and really bad news sells really well. How sad is that.

Guys, I know this issue has a lot of us pissed off and rightfully so when we hear about things like this happening. However, not everyone is going to be on the same side of the fence when discussing issues such as politics, religion, gun contol, etc... Its a big reason theyre not encouraged on this forum. When topics like these do come up, we need to keep any discussion respectful and free from personal attacks. Nothing personal, just keeping the peace. Much appreciated.....

Brian,

Read the post I responded to. I meant every word I said.

Kenny

And I meant every word I said. No personal attacks allowed on the board.

I put my name by it and stand by it. I understand your postion but do not regret for an instant what I said.

Kenny

I understand you feel strongly about where you side in this issue. I also don't fault you for wanting to make that point known. But I need you and everyone to keep the discussion clean from this point moving forward. You can get your point across without attacking someone in the process. It's all I ask.

Sorry everybody ........ I'm going to make an on topic post.

What a horrible tragedy. Truly. I feel for the parents and families of all the victims. I feel for all the first responders/police/fireman that will live the rest of their lives with the images of what they have seen. Rooms full of dead children. I feel for the entire community.

So close to Christmas. Plans have been made, presents have been bought.

Sad.

I found out just now that my son's school has this system in place. My mother-in-law is a retired teacher from there, she said each teacher has a button that alerts the entire school, with a bell, that it's time to lock the doors.

Every school, no matter how rural, should have this system in place.

"There were 310 million nonmilitary firearms in the United States as of 2009, according to federal figures"

This figure sure stood out to me when I was surfing around the net today. With that many firearms out there, no wonder these horrific events occur. In my opinion, all guns should be banned. Police or military I can understand the need, but I never could understand why regular citizens need them, or are allowed to acquire them. I don't need one, and never will. Ban hunting too. Should have been banned when grocery stores were invented.

Prayers go out to all of the families affected by this, I have a little one in kindergarten too.