Gardner and Beck Sovereigns
 

Joshua --

Do you own these two cards? Or have a scan of them? I don't believe they exist and the number is actually 123, but I'm very happy to be corrected!

Take Care,
Geno

Hi Geno, I can tell you that I don't have scans of either of these cards yet and did notice my 125 count compared to your 123 but added them for now and see if a scan would show up since I knew what 2 to search for. As I fill in the Gallery of all the back scans, we will see what cards might be questionable but I would say nearly 100 percent of the checklist is accurate with maybe just a few questionables.

I do have a scan of the Hummel that was questioned a few months back and can confrim the Willet but just waiting on a scan.

Ron

Well, seeing your website, and your above post, has inspired me to get after the cabinet and postcard sections - pre-wwi photos are really my passion, as they bring to life the era when the cards you mention were actually being pulled out of cigarette packs. It's also the reason I collect signed letters written by the T206 guys.

You (and others who are posting in this thread) are also kind of inspiring me to revive my T205 collection - I only have 6, but they are good ones :)

Geno,
I will have to check...probably do not have scans but may actually own the cards. Will let you know.

Joshua

I can add Broadleaf Green -- Austin and A. Latham on back.

Scott

I noticed there was the Matty cycle var listed but not the PB White partial quotes and no quotes, Collins mouth closed yellow elephant, graham signature variation blue and black (blue sig pied 25 only- black sig not found on pied 25), Miller B, D, or D over B print. Any reason those aren't listed? I don't think we need SCD, PSA, or SGC to tell us guys what is and isn't a variation. There are 2 more I am working on. The HLC backed Latham had a period before the A and I believe was intended to be a WA variation. The other is a new find and currently a work in progress.

Andrew, I actually started another thread just about this topic as I agree with you they should be listed. I assume that thread would become a big debate just like the others, so I didn't want to hijack this thread.

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=158953

I did think about listing many of those variations but at what point is a variation not worth adding to the list. I don't know if they should be added to the Master List or maybe a Master List Extention. I was just worried that I would be getting scans of cards with 5 different shades of red and expect to list them all as different variations. I am open to any suggestions anyone might have since its everyones site to use.

Ron you listed the Matty cycle 1 loss variation. It's only missing a number. No different than any other variation.

I do agree with Andrew that if you are going to identify variations separately on the master list, then you would need to have all of them. If you would list the Christy Mathewson once with all confirmed backs, then you would capture the 1 loss. Same thing with Wilhelm, you will capture both variations by listing all confirmed backs as both variations are found separately on one specific back (i.e. both variations aren't found on HASSAN backs). I would think at some point that if you list all possible front/back combinations, that you would capture most (not ALL) variations.

I do agree that it probably would be beneficial to add a separate section that does include the variations that are found on the same back as the corrected version, for instance for those collectors that aren't aware that the Moran Polar Bear back has both the correct back and the stray line of text.

I do think that for the most part, this would be a good site and would only help the collecting community. I also know that some of us will not disclose everything that we know (as Andrew acknowledged) either because of further research or due to not having to compete with other collectors to obtain certain cards. I'm not picking on Andrew as there are other board members that aren't going to give up everything they know, but he was the one who was honest enough to say so.

Great job Ron and I'm glad that someone took the initiative to create a site that I believe will only help promote and provide information on one of the best T sets out there.

r/
Frank

So far so good Ron et al.....

I don't have much in the way of T205 but will gladly share scans if they are needed. I probably have 1-2 that could be used.

Ron- my scanner does size percentage ie 100%, 125% etc...and dpi amount ie 96dpi, 200dpi, 300 dpi etc.......what do you prefer? You can see my meager T205s at luckeycards.com 3rd section down and in ACC numerical order. Let me know if there is anything you can use....and if you can just right click and copy them, that would be great too......best regards

Sale now
 

Someone is selling a Broadleaf Lewis Richie on eBay right now. You can check the picture out in his listing. Sorry, but I'm having troubles with pics right now.

I will be posting my collection tomorrow. Use what you want for the list.

Thanks Ron for the site. I just started collecting a team set of Superbas(still need Dahlen, Daubert and Wilhelm r or no r doesn't interest me), so this site came at a very nice time in my BB card collecting journey.

American Beauty Merkle
 

Hi Ron was going over my set. You can add this Fred Merkle
Best regards
Ron

Thank you Andrew, I look forward to it. Thank you everyone else also. I will be updating the checklist Sunday night.

Ron

Ron,

Love the thought of the site and hope all goes well. I know it's in it's primitive stages, but maybe you can have a list for the toughest backs in order and possibly a list of th toughest known combinations of front and backs.

Keep up the good work!

Downey and phelps is listed as having both BL backs. Downey is an olive and phelps a black back. It is not possible for them to exist with both backs.

Thank you Andrew, This is one of the topics that will be in tonights update because the scans are hard to tell sometimes between the black and olive green. I've corrected these two and it will show in tonights update. Thanks again,

Ron

We are a week into this new website and everyone has been a lot of help. A special thank you to Andrew W. (Pup6913) for sharing his checklist with everyone. Also, to all the other Net54baseball.com members, thank you for spending the time to view the list and seeing if there's anything missing. A few changes have been made to the checklist. Variations have been added and some corrections need to be made on the following. Broadleaf backs are either a black or olive green color but not both for the same card. Because the olive green looks sometimes black on a scan, I could use some help correcting which of the two colors they might be. One other card that needs more research is the John Miller card. Without really clear large scans, its hard to identify which of the variations should be checked off. At the moment, question marks are being used until more verification happens. If you know of a variation that should be added to the list, please email me the information, Thanks.

Ron
T205Resource.com

Sovereigns
 

I'm sticking with my list of 123 Sovereigns...so I think your 125 number is wrong. Joshua, any luck finding those two cards? If so, I'd love to know!

Take Care,
Geno

Hi Geno, I have a feeling that those two don't exist either but just waiting to see if Joshua comes up with the scans first.

Ron

Ron the Doc white comes with Quotes for all the backs its found with other than PB. Al PB backed Whites will have either No Quotes/partial quotes on right side . I would list the card variation as:
Doc White
Doc White No/Partial Quotes

Also I am arguing the Walsh pink baselines as a variation since none others have been found to exist and the odds of the card stock being subjected to a dye or ink bleed far outweighs the odds of another Walsh being found with the pink base paths.

Geno,
Could not find either scans and I do not own either. I do not have Gardner as a Sovereign in my list. I believe that is a mistake.

Beck is on my list but I could have made a mistake at some point.

Joshua

Um...I am not sure about not being able to have both Broadleaf backs. I have never seen one with both AB backs but here is a Phelps with an Olive back. I know for a fact there are at least two different olive ones floating around (one that Patrick Knoll had with a stamped star) and another auctioned a while back without a star stamp.

The Phelps Broadleaf is Olive...see a scan here

http://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/6039172

Downey is in olive as well...a scan can be found by searching here on net54.

I know Downey is olive as I had owned 2 different ones at one point but have never seen a black. As far as phelps I will look at my scans of the one I have and see the color for a positive reference. I will stand behind the BL's being either black or olive and not both. I can see a faded back fooling someone or the olive being really dark and not have great scans a the reason it appears black. Can we see 2 clear scans of any BL double colors side by side?

I'm going to check all my Broadleaf scans tonight but I do have a theory. Every Drum back has a Broadleaf couterpart. I would think that those 20 broadleaf cards would have the same color back, either black or olive green. Maybe those 20 could have both black and olive green backs or just one color or the other but that 20 Drum printing has to follow a pattern with the Broadleafs somehow. SGC shows a Jack Knight and Fred Payne with Broadeaf backs but the Master Checklist is still blank because of the color question.

Green broadleaf Moran No Stray Line on eBay right now.

Ron I think drum was run in less quantity than BL was. If they ran equals then drums and BL would be the same prices

I agree with that but what I was saying is the 20 different cards that have Drum backs also have a Broadleaf card. So say there are 10 or 20 different cards to a sheet, they used the same front plate but changed the back for the Broadleaf run and possibly that same 20 cards have the olive green back and the non Drum Broadleafs are maybe all black backs. I'm just thinking they may have used the same front plate but then they may not have. Just looking for a printing pattern to determine Broadleaf back colors so you can say if a Drum back exists, then the broadleaf back color is olive green and if there is no Drum card, then the Broadleaf has a black back.

Here's a couple more to add.

Steve B

http://www.mindspring.com/~sblackstone/s015.jpg

http://www.mindspring.com/~sblackstone/s016.jpg

I see what you are saying. Downey is an Olive back and has a Drum counterpart and Hoblitzell is a Black BL and has a Drum back as well. There is no rhyme or reason with the BL colors and a Drum connection. I think it has to do with distribution areas myself. Ted Z has helped me a bit in this area. Same goes for Hindus. This is research that I am not complete with yet to make a final theory but when I do I hope to share it with the board.


Still haven't heard back as to why the Walsh error is on the checklist as an actual variation. Just curious:confused:

I added it for three reasons. First, the description of the card states that there was no staining and that the pink was actually printed. If it was missing a color, I wouldn't have added it. Second, I thought maybe listing it would discover others with the pink diamond. Third, If a yellow elephant is accepted, then a pink diamond should be too. I haven't had any other feedback on the pink variation and can be removed at any time. What does everyone else think?

graham sig var backs

Top Left is BL
Top Right is SC
Bottom Left is Cycle
Bottom Right is AB

BL back colors

Blacks are the top 4 group and Olive is the bottom 4 group

All the white card stock is pink meaning it is a saturated stain or ink pass. A simple error. The Collins yellow elephant was discovered by Turner and has at least 4 different examples to show, and the yellow is only over the elephants white and none of the other white of the card. Walsh is a simple print anomaly with extra ink no different then the Neal Ball I have missing the red ink. Also not another single card has ever surfaced with pink ink in the white area to even remotely solidify that the card was part of a sheet run.

Good luck with the site, Ron.

Having handled the Walsh I can assure you it was printed that way, no bleed or extra ink. The pink is precisely where the white should have been. Had I not been auctioning the card I would have bought it.

I ended up buying the Walsh - Pink from the person who won it in our auction. I don't know what it is exactly but I don't think it's a stain...There are other T205s that have this pink in them and I think it's probably an error...(big scan on purpose)

http://luckeycards.com/pt205errors3x.jpg

I too handled that card...in fact, I think it was Scott who sold it to a former board member at a show we were all at many years ago. It is definitely a color pass but I think it could be a pass that was a mistake (white ink pass first that had a bit of red mixed in by mistake). There is a Beck on ebay right now with an odd pink color pass as well. Do not think it is a variation but a true one off mistake at the factory. I have never seen another like it.

Joshua

Not sure what to call it, one off, variation, etc. but is a legit T205 which saw circulation and is not printer scraps. Regardless of the moniker it's a very neat card. It is entirely possible only one sheet was printed like this due to human error and only 1-2 may survive.

I can add one card to the master checklist:

Ford, Black Cap (Sweet Caporal Red)

I agree 100% that the Walsh is a neat card. I have no doubt the card the card is legit in the fact it has a pink pass. Just not in the fact it's a variation. Scott B sold me the Latham that started a 4 yr quest in obtaining or finding other to verify the variation. He also started my AB quest:). Thank you Scott for the great transaction and addiction you helped me start.

Thank you everyone for the recent additions and corrections. I made a temporary change on the Broadleaf part of the checklist. As a Broadleaf back color can be confirmed by an actual card owner or previous owner, the checklist will be highlighted. I'm sure many of the non-highlighted Broadleafs are correct on the checklist but will remain questionable until actual owner scans can be provided. I will keep the checklist this way until all have been determined to be either black or olive green backs.

Yesterday I removed two Sovereign cards, Fred Beck and Clyde Milan. If anyone can confirm that either of these two cards exist with a scan, I will add them back to the checklist.

Thanks again everyone,
Ron - T205Resource.com

so far
 

Well, I pulled data for my SGC graded cards so far, the raw ones are still a work in progress. I don't think any of the 150 cards are unique to the master checklist already compiled, although I am not completely finished with that comparison...Hey I think I smell Turkey Dinner!

Ron,
If you are lacking scans I can possibly help. I will email you the list. But for this post, I'll just show the breakdown of the SGC portion of my collection. I'm curious as to how this relates to other collectors:

<u>Card Back Count Pct</u>

American Beauty- Black 0 <b>0%</b>
American Beauty- Green 1 <b>1%</b>
Broadleaf -Black <sp>0 0%
Broadleaf -Green <sp>0 0%
Cycle <sp><sp> 5 3%
Drum <sp> 0 0%
Hassan -Factory 30 13 9%
Hassan -Factory 649 9 6%
Hindu <sp> 0 0%
Honest Long Cut 18 12%
Piedmont -Factory 25 44 29%
Piedmont -Factory 42 2 1%
Polar Bear 20 13%
Sovereign 6 4%
Sweet CapFact.25 Black 10 7%
Sweet CapFact.42 Black 11 7%
<U>Sweet Caporal- Red 11 7%</U>
Familytoad SGC 150 cards

Thanks Brian, I received your email and will let you know what scans I need after I finish going through all the ones I have. As far as the T205 breakdown of my collection, I mainly collect Piedmont 42's, American Beauty's, and Cycle's in that order but only in PSA 4/SGC 50 grades. I have a few others also that i've bought when the price is good. For some reason, I buy more T206's than T205's and have well over 1000 different front/back combinations but rare back prices are so out of control that i've been trying to add more to my T205 collection lately.