I was kidding Andrew. I know SGC would have done a better job. Iv'e found the best grader in the world for me,,, thats myself.

If I ever decide to sell a worthless card for a bunch of money I'll call Ken Goldin I mean PSA. Seems like the latter is perfectly acceptable. Of corse I don't know anyone over there so I probably wouldn't get the grade I want.

I see a lot of great arguments on PSAs behalf, so I'm convinced, nothing wrong there :roll eyes: So does anyone want to talk about the shilling? Or does that get a pass?

I may be in the minority, but ...
 

... when your shill bidding at $250 and the card sells at $3,150 ... I can't get too worked up. Yeah, you shill bid, but your bid was essentially irrelevant because two people went WAY over the top of you.

When you shill for $250, and the card sells for $251 ... that's a different story.

Cheers,
Patrick

So what about the $475 shill on the $611 Havlicek? You ok with that too?

http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.d...m=120964176990


Also might be nothing but the winner of the Havlicek with their 595 Bids this month of which 456 are with only Probstein123 or 79%, humm yea that looks good too.

Thanks Patrick, I didn't know this kind of shilling was acceptible. I learn something new everyday...

Yes, when it's a low bid like that it's not really shilling. It's called a "safety bid." :rolleyes:

Grading is inherently subjective, no way around that. Having said that, though, it is my view that TPG is, on balance, of benefit to the hobby largely because it facilitates long-distance including internet transactions.

The problem I see relates to the enormous differences in value ascribed to high grades of even modern day commons. Even assuming no ethical problems in the grading process, the subjective nature of grading should over time reduce these disparities in my view, perhaps risking the investment of those collecting the highest-graded cards.

Just to add a bit of clarity it is my understanding that Joseph M Pankiewicz hasn't worked at SGC in nearly 10 yrs. Now back to my popcorn.

It's my understanding that he hasn't been a grader for them in nearly 10 years. The SGC website refers to him as a representative that accepts consignments on their behalf. Whether or not that means he's on their payroll I don't know.

http://www.sgccard.com/appearances.htm

Just going by what I was told with regards to his grading status. So my apologies for that....... I would assume if he is accepting consignments or submissions he is being paid for his time.

I said I was in the minority!
 

I knew I'd be in the minority on this one!

In my opinion ... if there are two legitimate bidders above a shill bid ... eh. The are two other bidders would have pushed it to the same price any way. There was no change in the eventual sales price.

When the underbidder is fraudulent ... then yes, we have a problem ... because the high bidder would not have had to pay his highest price. So the $475 bid is a bit more concerning, because I see your concerns about the actual underbidder. (There could have been two shill underbidders in that auction, in which case the winner was defrauded.)

Cheers,
Patrick

Yeah, but does a popcorn (leopard) change its' spots?

The issues specified above are why I collect vg to midgrade postwar mainstream cards--no need to worry about nonsense like this.

I've played the bump game and the raw submittal game in the past quite profitably. Nothing wrong with that.

I don't see evidence of some grand conspiracy. Frankly, the idea is far-fetched. Think about what is being suggested: that a highly organized criminal conspiracy exists to make money in relatively small sums at the risk of the TPG employees' jobs. Does PSA really put its graders in such desperate straits that they have to take bribes? And if it is PSA corporate that is alleged to be part of the scam, does it really make sense that the officers of a $100 million public company are conspiring with an Ebay seller?

If you think high-grade [allegedly] postwar card submissions are a crooked endeavor, the answer is simple, of course: don't participate. Buiy cards that are objectively difficult to find in any grade, not cards made rare/desirable only by way of some inherently suspect, subjective decision.

If you think Probstein or any other seller is crooked, don't buy from him.

I have bought many, many cards from rick probstein over the past several years. I have never suspected anything pertaining some of these accusations that are being made on this thread. I have paid good money for some, and gotten good buys on others like last night ( psa 7 ed reulbach for $996, the last psa 7 sold for over $2k). I think alot of people that make these statements really need to have there ducks in a row, as people can be made accountable for such comments.......

Pull your head out of the sand. I think Probstein needs to get his ducks in a row and explain (at the very least) why he allows his consignors to shill their own auctions.

Pat look at the bid % of the 3 bidders over the $250 mark. 2 of them are way high IMO and the 3rd is the winner. Probably legit but still ripped off:eek:

This is what's puzzling.... If the same card you just bought somehow made it's way into a 5 holder, your price would have been a terrible deal. How do you know it hasn't been bumped?

I really like exhibitmans post. I try to avoid graded cards, but it's hard. When I see a card I want in a slab, I ask myself, if I purchase this card and bust it out, would it potentially lose "value"? If the answer is yes, I just don't buy it.

I know the hobby has grown accustomed to TPG, but it's soooo crazy to me that a card can lose value just by removing it from its holder.

And how would you suggest he stop it, put a block on every single consignor? Monitor every one of his hundreds of auctions to see every bid?

the guy practically sells half the vintage cards on ebay. If you dont have a high bid % with him, you probably dont like/ are not bidding on vintage cards. Also, why does probstein have to police ebay policy? Probstein pays ebay fees to do this stuff. Regardless of what is going on behind the scenes (which i have no clue but I'll give Probstein benefit of doubt because of the guy I know him to be), blame ebay not him. He cant control this stuff.. he doesnt have the administrative ebay software.. Jeeeeeez

+1 Kevin Mize post

I don't understand Peter, auction houses are expected to monitor bids, why not on eBay?

I think he can at the very least check red flags, like this bright red one here.

I also think he should address the issue better, he could at least stop accepting consignments from this guy. I buy from Rick sometimes and I'd like to have the same piece of mind that I get from buying from AHs that I trust.

Shill bid me
 

I know my opinions don't match the majority of the board's ... but I honestly don't care if a seller shill bids me.

I as a buyer want the item and have set the price I will pay. I view my bid as a Buy-it-Now price. In other words, if the seller had this item with a Buy-it-Now price that was equal to my bid ... I would buy it immediately. If it was more, I wouldn't.

So if I get an item at a price less than my max bid ... good for me. Lucky day.

If I get an item for my max price ... cool. I got the item I wanted, and paid the amount I was willing to pay. (and not a penny more.)

If someone shill bids me up to my max price ... well, that kind of sucks (because I would have been lucky and gotten a bargain), but at the end of the day I still get the item I wanted and for a price I was wiling to pay. And since I set the price, I always get the item for a price I like.

So, I understand people get upset that they don't get the bargain they hoped for (and agree it is not right for seller's to do this) ... but I'd rather get shilled and get the item for my price, than not get the item.

And everyone on here has my permission to bid me up to my maximum price. I won't complain! (If you outbid me and get the item I want however ......)

Cheers,
Patrick

I thought we DON'T want auction houses monitoring bids, lest they know who has placed max bids. EDIT TO ADD If someone wants to buy back his own card, that's OK with me as long as he pays the premium. My only concern is a consignor placing a bid for the purpose of running someone up who he knows has placed a higher bid.

+1

I view shilling as a hidden reserve, without which certain items might not have been offered in the first place. When you eliminate shill bidding you end up with an ebay filled with outrageously priced BINs.

Oh no, time for another Paul vs. Jeff showdown.:D

I wasn't referring to bid amount, I thought they monitored whether or not a consignor is bidding on his own consignments... I didn't know that was acceptable.

What's the point? If I really want to shill my own consignment but am blocked from bidding, I could have a friend do it. I would rather worry about altered and overgraded cards, myself.

Problem with grading
 

I wonder what liability PSA could have on a negligence claim for "undergrading" the card the first time. I'm sure they have this all covered but hell, the first seller of this card must be pissed! :eek:

I can cut to the end of that argument: "My name is Paul, and I will bid in an auction house that fraudulently shill bids me. I have never paid more for an item than I wanted to. I have $32 to my name."

z

:D:D

I do think that shill bidding can artificially inflate the market for things that are sold in non-shilled markets, which can be problematic when trying to assess the value of something.

Shill bidding is a crime. Whether or not anyone cares if they're the victim of a crime does not change the fact that it is a crime. And crimes in which victims do not lose money (for example if the shill bid is placed much lower than the item's final price) does not change the fact that a crime has been committed.

Bully!

"I have bought many, many cards from rick probstein over the past several years. I have never suspected anything pertaining some of these accusations that are being made on this thread. "

I have too and im sure many of Ricks auctions are fine because it really gets down to the consignor, if they dont shill/bid their own auctions then you will win a card at the right price, just like the seller of the 1973 Shell PSA 8 for $47. The problem was the winner Pang21 who won and then reconsigned and then shilled his own auctions. While Im sure Rick has tons of business and does not track every bid, he does manage to invoice all his consignors his fees on each of these 10k monthly auctions and now that it has been brought to his attention the shilling what does he plans to do about it. He does have control, once a consignor shills he can just no longer accept consignments and block them as a bidder.

I remember when PWCC was questioned that he allowed a single safety bid, he was on here and posted that at one time he had allowed it but that was no longer the case and he did not allow any shilling by consignors, I give him props for at least addressing the issue.

Peter, agreed!

He was all set to shill, but soon after starting realized two fools with registry dreams were going to take care of that for him!

So he tells Pang21 to cut it out, or he blocks him. If Pang21 really wants to bump the auction he just uses another ID, or asks a friend to bid saying he will reimburse him if he wins. With so many issues plaguing the hobby, why waste time on this?

500% profit was enough for him, he didn't wanna be greedy.

A card just went from $47 to 3k in a week with no doctoring involved.... Seems like a good issue to waste some time on... What if someones grandma bought the card, or it's some guy trying to leave something valueable to his family?

LOL are these mutually exclusive events? Can't Net 54 members do two things at once? If someone is caught selling trimmed cards can't he also have a friend sell his trimmed cards for him? I think calling out fraud regardless of the size of it is only a positive thing. You never know if law enforcement is reading these pages.

To date, as far as I know, noone has been "caught" selling trimmed cards. All the ones I suspect are still on the loose. EDIT TO ADD I would have mentioned the T206 Wagner, but David Hall denied it. :)

Yeah, I specifically said above I was concerned about overgraded cards, I was referring to Pang21 supposedly bidding on his own consignments.

Anyone who says they are ok with being shilled is an absolute fool.

You could be wrong.

My assumption was incorrect. It is now my understanding, from a very reliable source, that he doesn't get paid whatsoever from SGC, for anything he does for SGC. I stand corrected.

So prove me wrong.:)

Bet me $32 first.

Friggin' lawyers...

I'm not ok with shill bidding but since I have a determined max bid in mind before I actually bid, it tends to not really effect me since I place my bid in the last second. One of two things happens, I either get a great deal since I would never overpay for a card or I am outbid in the last second in which case, the card sold for more than I was willing to pay. Ebay is the only one that can track possible shilling, not Rick. Rick could have an idea if its happening but as others have said, its just a matter of setting up another ebay user id. No matter how this all plays out, I still look forward to Ricks listings and will still continue to bid and buy from him.

+1

Another significant bump. Someone sure is lucky...

http://i.ebayimg.com/t/1961-Topps-57...Wpg~~60_57.JPG
http://i.ebayimg.com/t/1961-Topps-57...!SQ~~60_57.JPG

ooooooooohhhh Rick where art thou ?!?

Not true, eBay doesn't know who consigned items to Rick. If Rick sees a red flag, all he has to do is go look at the bid history.

Fair enough, and you're right, the grading is a bigger issue.

So if you determine that a card is worth $1000 but a shill bidder puts in a bid at the last second on an $800 card for $999 -- and you win the card for $1000 with YOUR last second bid -- then you: a) did not overpay for the card and b) have not been "effect[ed]" by the shill bid? Without which would have resulted in you winning the card for $801?

Clearly there is visible paper loss on the lower left corner of the '61 Mays. The grading of these cards (Shell, Havlicek, Bauer, Ryan and now the Mays plus the other examples referenced on the CU Board) has now gone beyond the lame excuses of "subjectivity of grading", "grader error" or even "gross incompetence". The entire chain of custody needs to be investigated because people are getting ripped off.

That thread on CU is a great read.

I guess the question would be, was the $999 bid a shill bid or a legit bid. I would only bid what i'm completely comfortable paying. I also come up with my max bid by looking at what the same card has sold for in the past and I usually won't even pay that. I do agree there is a small window where a shill bid could affect me but with the number of other bidders, it would probably always be under a hundred dollars more likely less than fifty dollars. I never find myself saying, I paid too much for this card, after I won the auction. The other thing is, the shill bidder doesn't know what i'm willing to pay or even if i'm interested in bidding in the auction. I think the shill bidding would be a bigger problem if ebay had the 5 minute rule where the auction doesn't end until theres 5 minutes of no bids after it ends.

If the past "sales" that you are basing the price you are willing to pay on are inflated by shill bids then it affects you in that way too. It's much easier to get to the place where the rationalization is, "I love collecting so much that I am willing to put up with all the sh!t this hobby throws at me." It's a big tent.

david- its so obvious to me that you have a hard on for this guy. If so, what's the deal? Where's your proof? By chance, you might not be just a tad jealous are you??

I was thinking the exact same thing. Just because I am willing to pay $1000 for a card doesn't mean I should have to because of a bid that was placed with no intention of winning or keeping the card (in the case of a safety bid). Sometimes I actually like to think I got a good deal and pay less than I am willing to.

I stated clearly that the $999 bid was made by a shill bidder. Let's agree that you're comfortable in paying $1000 but would have gotten the card at $801 if not for the shill bid. Are you impacted by the fraud?

That is very true Jeff. I tend to have multiple sources from where I work up my numbers. I can usually see where a shill bid has happened because the sales numbers will all be around average or a steady rise but then theres sometimes a number that doesn't make sence and I usually leave that one out. Kinda like how some teachers would average your test scores in school, take out the highest and lowest grade and average the rest.

It still comes down to what your comfortable paying for a card. In an open floor type of auction, you could be shilled until you have hit what your willing to pay and then you say your out. With ebay, theres just more mystery to it.

David- still waiting for the proof........Did the dog eat it?

I guess I would be impacted by fraud but its only fraud if it can be proven and thats where we are with this post. I do understand the points your making but at the same time, if I was to place my $1000 bid at the last second and the current bid was $800. I wouldn't be suprised if I won at the $1000 bid and wouldn't automatically think I was shilled. Its more likely that I would lose the auction in real life because I tend to get outbid more than I win but when I win, I win good :)

I'm still waiting on you to pull your head out of the sand. It must be burried pretty deep not to see what's going on here.

Sooooo. What's going on here???

What's going on is that Probstein sells cards that show back up in his auctions with magical bumps. Somebody sure is lucky with all those bumps.

Edited to add: What's also going on here is that he allows his consignors to shill their own auctions.

David -- magical bumps are not limited to Rick Probstein. Maybe there are some visible examples in his auctions, but they are EVERYWHERE, I assure you. They just might not be juxtaposed so neatly as to make them apparent. Buying, cracking out and resubmitting is prevalent throughout the hobby. I strongly suspect that in many instances, the cards are doctored in between. I used to follow a known card doctor's purchases on ebay. Always, it was centered 5s and 6s.

In casinos, the more money you spend, the better your "comps" get. Some of the bigger spenders (whales) can even get their own private parking space :D

Sincerely, Clayton

once again, proof??????? David, you are talking a big game, but nothing is coming forward.....

If this thread shows one thing it shows that it is the rare grader who was born to grade.

I know cracking out and resubmitting is commonplace and bumps happen every day. I have no problem with that. However, I do have a problem when those bumps are clearly not deserved (such as the Shell and Ryan) and when it seems to happen quite often to certain individuals.

David- are you going to honestly tell me that no other auction venues have consignors that have not "goosed" the bids on their items?? If you honestly believe that, my god man, please buy my 6 acres of mountain property in florida.....

Proof of what, Kevin? I showed you proof of the bumps that weren't deserved. Look at the bid history and you'lll see proof of the shills. What more proof are you asking for?

http://cdn.ifanboy.com/wp-content/up...ad-in-Sand.gif

I never said that and no, I don't believe it. Grow a set and quit putting words in my mouth.

Obviously the shilling is fraudulent and the bumps were clearly not deserved on some of these cards, but I'm surprised more people haven't brought up or questioned the buyer of this 1973 football card. You would think someone who paid $3K+ for a 1970s football card would be serious enough to notice that the same exact card sold for about 1/65th of the price the week before. I mean, the original poster of this thread sure noticed, and found out that it was shilled as well. Are the PSA Registry collectors really this competitive? The same card was worth way more to people when it had a different number on it. This is what I dislike about PSA. In a perfect world, TPG companies would just tell you if the card is real or not, and buyers can judge it on its eye appeal.

I have to feel sorry for the consignors, They have lost at least 10% on every item they have consigned with Rick since all of this has come to light. Dont you think he owes it to them for at least some restitution on his commission. I hear he is such a top notch guy. Any other comments on what can be done?

David- you know what pal, you are a wannabee. Do you know what that is? Someone that is jealous from someone else kicking them in the ass, and dreaming they could do what they are doing. Maybe if you are lucky, rick will hire you as a receptionist.....On the other hand, I doubt it.

Yup, you nailed me.

yup??????