exactly right,


if i had a superb oversized wagner, with great appeal, just slightly rounded corners, i just trim it sharp, send it to psa, and ask for a hand cut qualifer.

my card goes from a 5 to an 8 hand cut?

i agree with corey, is this where we want to go? i say no.

the trimmers would have a field day thinking of ways to increase their card several grades and get a hand cut qualifier. and its not just wagner, other oversized cards too.

How many cards
 

Have a book specifically written about them. C'mon now -- this cards will sell for more $$$ if and when the next time it sells due to the fame. And no, this card's flip will not change. All you will need to go with it is a signed copy of "The Card".

Rich

even if the hand cut qualifier got a little traction and psa decided it wanted to do it, it would never fly, because it would look like an obvious attempt by psa to minimize the fallout over misgrading it the first time. people would be outraged that all psa would have to do is add "hand cut" to the flip it is already in and that everything would now be okay?

PSA used that cards for 20 years in advertising, etc. to promote its business, and it was an "A" all along, not an 8. Great advertising for them. The first card they graded, and a big draw, at the national, etc.


Now they get to decide it should remain an 8 (HC) to save face? I don't think they should ever grade a T206 Wagner again. The card was trimmed. PSA graded a trimmed card.

Travis, I have news for you. PSA has graded a LOT of trimmed cards. So has SGC. Maybe not in terms of percentages, but given the volume both companies have graded, many trimmed cards have, for whatever reason, slipped through. And it will continue to happen, it's inevitable. It's an imperfect world.

Yeah but this Wagner was the centerpiece of PSA's advertising for decades. It is the most significant card they've ever graded. And not only was it misgraded but it was graded fraudulently. And of course, as predicted, Joe Orlando sticks his head in the sand and pretends this debacle doesn't exist. What a clown he is.

Jeff, the story just broke a couple of days ago, we don't know yet whether Joe is going to play ostrich or take a position. I imagine he needs to discuss this with his management and maybe the CU Board before doing anything. I suspect this will take some time. It's a public company still, no? EDIT TO ADD And yeah he probably needs to consult with their lawyers too.

Hand cut would never work
 

Post / opinion no longer available

Actually I don't think it has been verified publicly yet. This discussion is proceeding as if that is the case, but did that actually get stated in the documents? I admit, I have not read it all, but what I did read about it in the actual legal documents seemed a bit ambiguous. Someone please correct me if I am wrong about this.
JimB

The inference from the report that Mastro is cooperating is that he admitted to it.

Peter,
Yes, if I was a betting man, I would infer the same thing. But I would like to see what is actually said before drawing conclusions.
JimB

I agree, but that may not happen, as it seems unlikely Bill's case will go to trial or that he is otherwise going to confess in public.

i believe it should receive a auth grade because it has been altered. What i would have liked to see is the printer sheet the wagner came from man that would have been one of the greatest find in sports card history and might have been held in higher regard than the card bye itself i say this because of the condition of the wagner by itself is amazing. does anyone else know who was on this sheet with the wagner?

do we see the duality here?

on one hand, a lot of people are saying that everyone knew it was trimmed all these years, so what is the big deal about.

on the other hand, when people here call it trimmed, then others want to hold off calling it trimmed for sure until the principal of the criminal case confirms it at trial, and on audio tape?

see how important it is to find out once and for all, so this jeckyll and hyde situation can be resolved.

its obviously trimmed to some for certain debate purposes, and it cant be called trimmed to others for other debate purposes.

If the card has been trimmed, cut down or/and otherwise altered, it's grade is either Authentic or Poor-- though Authentic would be the usual choice.

PSA could be in store for more than it imagined. According to the Mastro Federal Indictment (paragraph 11):

It was further part of the scheme that in marketing materials distributed on behalf of Mastro Auctions, which were intended to portray Mastro Auctions to potential bidders and consignors as a premier seller of valuable items for which a strong market existed, defendant MASTRO represented that Mastro Auctions had sold the most expensive baseball card in the world, a Honus Wagner T-206 card. In making this representation, however, defendant MASTRO knowingly omitted the material fact that defendant MASTRO had altered the baseball card by cutting the sides of the card in a manner that, if disclosed, would have significantly reduced the value of the card.

Based on this statement, it wasn't the actual sale of the card that was an issue, but continually advertising that they had sold the most expensive card in the hobby without disclosing that they knew the card was altered, which would greatly devalue the card.

Likewise, PSA has milked the same card for all its worth. According to Michael O'Keeffe's articles and his book, The Card, there was allegedly a voice of descent by one of the graders, Bill Hughes, regarding if the card had been trimmed. Here's an excerpt from a recent NY Daily News article:

"The Card" quotes Bill Hughes, a member of the grading service team that issued the card's high grade - Professional Sports Authenticator gave it a PSA 8 on a scale of 1-10 - as admitting he knew the card had been cut from a sheet when he graded it. "The card is so outstanding, it would have been sacrilegious to call that card trimmed and completely devalue it," Hughes explained.

See:

http://articles.nydailynews.com/2010...umerical-grade

To also put this in perspective, the T206 Wagner PSA 8 was the first card PSA graded. Having this highly sought after card with a PSA label was in my opinion the greatest publicity a start-up company in this industry could hope for. So by analogy, if Hughes' admissions are true, PSA may have in essence done the same that Mastro did - attempt to mislead consumers with false information.

Another potential problem facing PSA is if there was indeed a deliberate decision to grade a trimmed card, the current owner of the card may decide to explore the option of filing a suit against the grading company under the Lanham Act for false advertising/mislabeling of a product and would be liable for triple damages. That's $2.8M x 3 = $8.4M!!!

As for Joe Orlando, unless he's gone through a radical personal transformation, I wouldn't expect to see any voluntary public statement about the Wagner or Mastro.

Dan -- Lanham Act claims are usually against a competitor. It is possible a buyer has a cause of action against a seller, I am not sure, but in any event PSA didn't sell the card. I am not sure there is a Lanham Act claim here.

Couldn't one reproduce a factory cut by using equipment from that time to pass the grade? Wonder if this will spread to other suspected cards like the SGC P150 Plank.....very interesting development indeed.

i'm sure some others on here know a whole lot more about the process than me...but when large stacks of sheets are cut with that style of guillotine like cutter the effect on the cards(kind of a bowing effect) cut will appear very different than if u only cut one single sheet. Additionally wouldn't the color of the cut edges be a give away too?

I believe the only proper outcome is to reholder the thing in an AUTH-TRIMMED holder. I think if they were to basically make an exception and call it PSA 8 (Hand Cut), it would no doubt lead to other exceptions. When the borders are eventually added to the Wagner in the other thread, we can call it PSA 8 (Hand Made).

I think Authentic...cut from sheet would be appropriate.

I could go along with this
 

As long as the holder says AUTH without any numbers, I could go along. In the end, I guess my opinion doesn't matter because I will never be the owner of this card. Therefore, I will never be the seller either. Personally, if I had the financial means, I would rather buy one of the Ex specimens floating around which are 100% authentic and unaltered. I do have what may be a silly question though. Can PSA essentially recall this product and reholder themselves? When they sell you beef with e-coli in it, they recall it so I thought maybe PSA could step up to the plate and do the right thing. I suppose that would be an admission of some sort so I'm not holding my breath.

I agree...I've never been a condition guy...a nice vg would tickle me pink!!!!!!

My interpretation of the Lanham Act as to its relevance is:

(a) Civil action
(1)Any person who, on or in connection with any goods or services, or any container for goods, uses in commerce any word, term, name, symbol, or device, or any combination thereof, or any false designation of origin, false or misleading description of fact, or false or misleading representation of fact, which—

(B)in commercial advertising or promotion, misrepresents the nature, characteristics, qualities, or geographic origin of his or her or another person’s goods, services, or commercial activities,

shall be liable in a civil action by any person who believes that he or she is or is likely to be damaged by such act.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/15/1125

I could be wrong, but I don't see being involved in the actual direct sale or having ownership of the item in question matters based on what I've highlighted in bold print.

Dan, on its face this applies most naturally to suits by competitors -- who have been harmed because the defendant either misrepresents his own goods, or the competitor's goods. It seems a stretch to me to say PSA, in the context of a sale of the Wagner, by virtue of having once graded it, would be misrepresenting the seller's goods. Just my .02, which is probably worth .01.

So PSA is going to review every card Mastro ever submitted? Not gonna happen. (Gratuitous reductio ad absurdum.)

Bill

i was referring to carving out a special qualifier just to suit this card. since we know about this one being trimmed now, it should join the ranks of the Authentic/trimmed. this card may be special in the hobby, but it shouldnt be special in the card grading world. treat it the same.

PSA8 Trimmed would make no sense. It would be like labeling a card Mint Poor. Or Up Down (Do I hear a Cat Dog anyone?). Nrrmt-Mt and altered are mutually exclusive terms-- the presence of one means the absence of the other.

And, yes, strip cards and Kellogg's cards that were intended to be hand cut are a different situation. That topic is a for another thread some day.

The practical issue is if the card is indeed 'hand cut' (using the term colloquially) and it is known by the seller that it is altered, then the seller has to detail its condition correctly at next sale. A significant event is how it is described next time it comes up for auction.

X2

They are talking about buying....not selling.

Love is fleeting :D:D:D:D:D

so are some collections

Lol
 

Leon, you made me laugh out loud twice in one day... that's tough to do!

youth is fleeting too!

If the current PSA "8" is deemed "Auth" then I believe the highest rated Wagner will be PSA "5"

Why not slab it similar to this?

http://www.robertedwardauctions.com/.../2009/890.html

Under the new idea, this card could be re-slabbed as a 7 or 8 (hand cut).

To get the 'hand cut' qualifier, would I have to prove I cut it from a strip?

If so, then if Bill Mastro's word is good enough (that he cut it from a strip), would mine be?

Too funny Leon :p

HC designation could also work for printers scrap.

LOL! And fast! Like the Chicago guy without the drama!

If the Wagner was cut from a sheet of cards.....what happened to all the other cards on that sheet? Did he cut them out too and are they a floating around in PSA 8 holders?

The Plank in my post above I believe was on the same sheet.

At the PSA lunch right now - David Hall is 100 percent standing by the PSA 8 grade, and says the only debate was whether to grade it a 7 or 8. He says they will stand by their product but they don't believe the evidence to date.

Good for PSA! Ride that ship all the way down to the bottom of the sea!

circling the wagons, great! full blown investigation, here we come!!!

don't stop at just card grading!!!

LOL! Not surpising.......

Was this recorded on video or even audio?

Not sure if anything was recorded, but Hall was adamant that he examined te Wagner with a magnifying glass and stood by it, but if anything was proven otherwise and PSA had to compensate a buyer for any reason, that was part of their guarantee.

Thanks for the updates scooter729.

So the grader, Bill Hughes, was lying (or was misquoted)? Interesting. Hall is probably taking a chance that whatever Bill Mastro has to say about it won't see the light of day.

I have always said it and caught sh!t about it for years--once the card is graded it is 100% legit. That is why grading companies can offer a guarantee of a buy back. They never HAVE to use it.

Too bad it is not an option to break out the card and have it examined by a panel of "disinterested" graders. But then you void the all important guarantee.

Shill bidding is a blessing compared to the things that go on behind the plastic. FBI has put their resources in the wrong place.

He should stand behind their product - PSA appears to use very high-quality plastic, and their labels are second to none.

To quote Wallace Stevens, "What we said of it became a part of what it is."

Amen to that.

Hall said Hughes told him that the quotes in the book and the newspaper articles were outright lies, and Hughes never said he knew the card was trimmed.

The plot thickens...

What a tangled web we weave....

Funny thing Dan, is that for years you attacked me endlessly for my position as it was an anti PSA stance.

I should have been a pair of ragged claws
Scuttling across the floors of silent seas.


As long as we're quoting poetry today.

As I recall Greg, my issue was wanting to see some evidence made public - which I finally did. :)

In the room collectors come and go,
talking of Hall and Orlando.

Also I see Keith Olbermann takes his shots on this fiasco

http://keitholbermann.mlblogs.com/tag/mastro-auctions/

In the room the women come and go
Talking of Michelangelo...:)

Barry

I do not wish to see you wearing white flannel trousers.

But do I dare to eat a peach?

No worries, he won't drown.

I feel like a patient etherized upon a table...

"Before and after somebody with the guts of a burglar and the skills of a circumcision specialist had trimmed the thing.

In its previous state the Wagner was an anomaly. It had very large white borders, and the card was thus perhaps 10% bigger than the average T-206. It looked like it had been hand-cut from a sheet of cards, and not done by a machine. Some of the corners were stubbed and worn from age. "

Interesting. So Olberman had all this information for all these years, but only now had the "guts of a burglar" to finally make his thoughts public?

Keith, you were scooped.

I was not aware that the alleged "before" photo showed a card with stubbed corners, I thought the differences were more subtle.

Just saw this video on youtube. Thought it was funny and pertained to this thread. Proof the card was tampered with...LOL http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=piPoDVb4_OA

sorry if it was posted before.

+1

My guess is that the light of day, formally, is about 6 months away. But what do I know?

any news in the psa8 wagner case?

"Its like the Mona Lisa of baseball cards. Thats why its worth so much."
Or because it looks like its Nm-Mt and not Ex.