I agree with Bobby on this one too. His card looks better than an 84. I also agree that I have purchased many undergraded cards in SGC holders and yes, maybe it means SGC is being too carefull (conservative) with grades.

However, if you are a buyer, isn't that a good thing (wouldn't you want a better looking card for a better price) or am I missing something? That's why I buy SGC graded cards because I know there's a good chance that it was graded conservatively and the card may be nicer than it's PSA counterpart.

Then again, that's from a buyer's perspective. If I was a seller and wanted to get more bang for my buck, I would probably go with PSA because I know they're not going to grade as careful and the card will sell for more.

About missing paper loss.......how does a "grader" miss paper loss?!? I mean, does he look at the edges for 3 seconds and throw a grade on it? PAPER LOSS. Right there in his face. What the? I haven't seen that happen with SGC-maybe it has happened, but I haven't seen it.

Sincerely, Clayton

Sure, if your a buyer, but buyers are not the ones subbing cards. TPGs are for sellers trying to get max value for their cards. That's not going to happen with SGC. If I had to guess, they grade conservatively to keep buyers of cards from demanding they make good on their guarantee.

Why any sellers use their service is beyond me. To those who say the black make their card pop, hold a raw one in your hand and see how it pops then.

I've busted many SGC cards out and from experience, that black insert does more damage then good. I know all of you that have sgc cards have seen the card slip behind the insert. That insert is fairly sharp with sometimes somewhat jagged edges.

Oh and BTW, is that the Plank I sold you? :) I know the condition flaw it has but the grade is a bummer.

Sgc inserts
 

Matt- you are exactly right about the inserts with sgc holders. I have a few high end t206s (84's and higher) that have indentions (small lifts of the paper) on the back of the card, top and bottom, and the length of the indention is exactly the same width as the insert. It make me sick to my stomach because the cards are so extremely sharp other than that. What the hell am i suppose to do now??

I had an Obak in an SGC slab that wouldn't stay out from behind the insert, no matter how many times I tapped the edges to center it. After closer inspection, I realized the insert was actually a tiny bit smaller then the card itself, that's why I couldn't get it to sit right in the holder.

I agree on the gasket
 

The cases also often pop open without frosting when done in a certain way. I know this is a problem with PSA as well.

Bobbie--that card could have been at least a 9 if someone removed that rotten sign. Does you girlfriend ask why you bought a case of pinup cards?

Yup, that's the Plank. A good example of what I was talking about. It has all the eye appeal of a VG/EX card, but a low technical grade. I could really care less about the number on the front. I just want to be sure it's original and unaltered.

I think it should have graded higher as I'm sure you did too. And I think if I cracked it out and sent it to PSA it would grade higher (2.5 or 3). That's not a knock on PSA by saying they overgrade, I really believe it's undergraded. However, if it were a PSA 2.5 or 3, it would have cost me a lot more money. Same card, more money. Makes no sense. I just feel that by buying SGC graded cards I get a much better card (eye appeal) that is more conservatively graded for the money (and the Plank is a perfect example).

If I ever decide to sell it, I may crack it out and send it to PSA to see if I can get a higher grade. I don't think I would have anything to lose. But as for now I plan to keep it and don't really care about the holder that it resides in, just that it's the real deal as I mentioned.

Anyway, again that is from a buyers perspective. If I were a seller, I would probably go with PSA.

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x...s/E95Plank.jpg

FWIW I sold it to you for what I bought it for. Pretty good deal. People ignored the card and couldn't get past the holder.

They ARE his girlfriend :). BTW, because of the cracking Bobby mentioned there is no doubt in my mind they are technically graded correctly. Just because a card is in a 3-4 holder doesn't mean it will sell for an average 3-4 price. If I have a high-end-for-the-grade card I usually ask more than an average-for-the-grade card. It happens frequently with SGC cards as they do grade conservatively. As I just said in the M116 thread, I paid a premium for the SGC 40 Matty but it should go for more than a 4 because of the way it looks.




.
.

I think there are times when grading a card can actually decrease the value rather than increase the value? If you were to have sold the same card raw with an accurate description and clear scans, would it have sold for more money (as opposed to someone not being able to get past the techincal grade on the slab)? I think maybe so.

I will not buy a SGC card. I dont trust the case and I dont like OC cards.

There's a lot of "people grade cards and people make mistakes" comments in this thread. Sounds like PSA-apologists to me.

I am asking for just one -- one -- SGC graded card at 60 or higher with a visible crease.

Just

One

You can say SGC must make the same proportion of mistakes as PSA, but can you produce a single example of an SGC 60+ with a visible crease?

Try buying PSA 5s on the blind and see how long it takes you to find one. I just got this one a couple of weeks ago. Top left corner crease. Hard to see in a scan, but really easy to see in person. Probably an SGC 40. Oh well.

<a href="https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/wZCe3AbT-RIuyW7dTa7T5EbbPrYp6YHrRqcN_cfzkkQ?feat=embedwebsi te"><img src="https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-5wIjVru97uk/T9_KwE9VDQI/AAAAAAAAK_8/5iPLSnvhaGk/s800/Carrigan_PSA_5.5.jpg" height="800" width="479" /></a>

Dont collect scans Paul
 

like I said, but I can assure you they bought back high grade cards because of creases that were missed or pressed out and returned. PSA does allow for a wrinkle on a card up to a 6 so because there are different standards you can't really scream about it thats just a fact, like sgc allows for weaker corners on an average 5. Plus Paul have you ever seen anything negative from SGC you may be the biggest fanboy on here and if you are calling me a psa apologist also a fool. I have ripped PSA unmercifully at times but Im just sick of many on here criticizing PSA for things that SGC also does than applauding SGC.

If I were submitting a card and wanted the best assessment possible of authenticity and grade, I would choose SGC. If I were buying a card of unknown origin on the open market, I would lean slightly towards PSA, although I would be wary of both.

Fanboy? You mean SGC proponent? Sure, I may be the biggest SGC supporter on here. But what's my bias?

I have purchased 32 PSA 5 T206s since April for my mid-grade set. And it drives me crazy how much crap is currently for sale in a PSA 5 holder. I have to be a lot more careful with PSA than I am with SGC. That was my experience 10 years ago, when I began my first set, and that is my experience today as I work on a second.

2 stories.

I have a PSA 4 T205 Shulte pied 42 with 4 pin holes in it. One in each corner. An SGC 1 tops and I am fine with that. It would be accuratly graded then.

About 6 yrs ago I drove to whicita ks to buy a collection of new and vintage. He produced an unopened pack of 57 topps that I had him throw in to seal the deal. I busted the pack and pulled a Clemente that was mint. I sent it to sgc and it came back a 5. I resubmitted it for review thinking there is no way it is that and they put it in a graded bag and circled the upper left corner on the back where there was a slight spider crease or what I thought was a flaw in the cardstock. I sold the card for decent money though. What got me was the dealer that bought it submitted it to PSA and it now resides in a PSA 9 slab is what he told me. So how's that right? I could have did that also but would have felt like a thief had I sold it for 9 money. So if you sleep better at night using PSA over SGC that is fine but for me I prefer consistancy and integrity. I buy the card and not the holder anyways. Took me a while to learn but it was an easy choice after I learned my cards.

What Peter said
 

Peter has made in my opinion the most accurate post of this entire thread.

Also Paul i will admit T206 does seem to be the set with the most PSA screw ups, and this may be part of the explanation for your vitriol, which I dont necessarily disagree with, I just have no more faith in SGC because of thier cronyism than PSA. If you look at some of the right places I think you'd be just as disgusted as many others have become.

ignored this thread 'til now, cuz it's stupid, not sure if pete was serious starting this thread but...

i did have an sgc60 t206 young years back with the much worse corner crease than the carrigan. it bothered me so much because the card was jarred during shipping and shifted out of the black insert, so i wasn't sure if the shipping caused further damage. looking back at the auction scan i could see the wrinkling was there b4 being shipped. up until that point i also thought sgc don't allow crease/wrinkling in EX cards either.

Chad- glad you posted that. I also have a t206 sgc 70 mordecai brown (tolstoi) with a tiny, tiny crease at the bottom on the back of the card. The card looks like an 8, so in my mind, sgc hit the card a couple of grades because of that....

2 challenges...both unanswered
 

I challenged anyone to post a scan of an SGC card with paper loss that is graded a 4 or higher. Nobody can do it. I can post scans of several PSA cards with paper loss that are graded a 4 or higher (many that are graded a PSA 6).

Somebody else challenged anyone to post a scan of an SGC card with a visible crease graded 5 or higher. Again, nobody can do it. Below is a better scan of the Carrigan (PSA 5.5) with the corner crease.

I hear chatter, no scans.

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x...untitled-1.jpg

how about botn's sgc60 cobb with a piece of corner hanging out? it's not a crease, but does that count?

http://www.b-lauctions.com/site/bid/...etauctionid=78

p.s. i have better use for my hard drive than saving tpg's mistakes, like porn.

Chad- i would think that a glued on corner would count.....

Sure, that counts.

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...ighlight=nippy

I deleted the scans, but you can read the thread and get the idea.

not sure its not a wrinkle
 

and psa does allow wrinkles up to a 6, if a crease its a definite way overgrade.its overgraded as a wrinkle but not shocking to me. just because sgc does not allow wrinkles on 5s it does not mean sgc is not more lenient in some areas. In the past it was centering now it seems to be corners (except high end where they are just as tough but mid grade can have a wide range of wear,particularly sgc 60 cards. I am way more concerned with filed and trimmed cards then i am overgraded unaltered cards and that is where I feel left down the most.

Ps many people also need to realize standards have tightened considerably in the industry since psa's inception in 1992?( i think). Around 2000 i feel standards have jumped to the know sometimes unreasonable, for 8 anyways, standards (thus the survival of many card doctors).

You should have absolutely had that pack fresh Clemente graded a PSA 9 that's a no brainer. It's very simple. Just put in the description that you feel it should not have received the grade it did because of a spider crease, if that's what it was. Flip collectors don't care about the card, you should have allowed them the opportunity to bid.

To those who want scans of overgraded SGC cards you won't find many, but you will find countless undergraded ones, just as bad IMO, since I use neither to collect. Couple SGCs lower realized prices wih undergrades, the choice seems obvious.

PSA has the advantage in the marketplace on high grade cards in sets that are actively contested on the registry. At present, SGC's registry does not have the critical mass to lead to similar financial results. That could change as I know they are working to improve their registry program. However, my experience with the two companies has led me to firmly believe that SGC does a much better grading cards. They are more consistent, they have not good, but great customer service, and they have the best looking holders in the market. When I grade cards I use SGC.

This is really my point. Every since I've been collecting baseball cards -- now close to 30 years -- "EX" was understood to allow somewhat rounded/touched corners, but NEVER creases. That was how I was raised to think of grading and, frankly, value.

Now, it may be that PSA will allow for more creasing in 5s than SGC. And it is certainly true that SGC will allow softer corners on a SGC than PSA will allow on a 5. But, to me, that is a terrific mistake on PSA's part.

As far as scans go, I keep my scans "in the clouds" on Picassa. No hard drive space issues here. And I have close to 100 PSA 5/SGC 60 T206 cards in my collection. I frequently buy them "blind" -- i.e., buying the holder and not the cards (mea culpa) -- and can tell you for dead certain that the SGC 60s are much safer to buy blind than the PSA 5s are, particularly if you don't like creases.

This 100 card example, which has been amassed since April 2012, is EXACTLY THE SAME as my experience collecting PSA 5/SGC 60 now almost 10 years ago.

Now, it may be that PSA grades a higher volume of cards -- but how is that at all relevant when I have been buying both in equal amounts, without regard for whether its PSA or SGC. I buy them both the same.

My "vitriol" for PSA is based on customer service, grading quality, and grading consistency.

I also have no personal knowledge of "cronyism" at SGC. But the "chatter" about cronyism at TPGs is as old as the day is long. So are the anecdotes. Where is the objective evidence? I really have no opinion one way or another on whether it exists (unlike the SGC 60 T206 with a crease, where I have never seen one).

Keep drinking the Kool Aid Paul
 

:D

I can only say what I've seen, my friend has an account with PSA, we sent 102 cards to them 4/10/12, we finally received them back 2 days ago, a gentlemen called my friend the account holder and told him that there's been a serious accident the encapsulating machine damaged 6 of our cards and they're going to send them back to regrade them I about fell over, after numerous calls to them about is our cards done he gets the call about 6 cards being damaged & he wasn't sure of who's cards got damaged, in the long run nobody wins, I will "never use PSA to grade my cards ever again!

Long story short my friends cards (6) got damaged and he was compensated $200.00

My 2nd story is now I've sent 10 cards to SGC about 2 weeks ago, Earl and the gang are great,,I was scared shitless on a shipping concern, I sent 10 cards priorty mail, with insurance and delivery confirmation, my 2 prized cards a 1958 Hank Aaron card white letter and a 1960 Mickey Mantle card and 8 other cards, I bought the 2 cards at a auction and both cards are stunning and centered..

Here's what happened and here's what I liked, I recieved delivery confirmation that the box got there, I called 2 days later and my order wasn't checked in, I called, they said they didn't get the order, I claimed the box is there, I'm sweating bullets, I'm thinking I sent a box to a building or suite and now the delivery is all messed up sent to the wrong floor, after a few phone calls with immediate response my cards were there, I recieved a customer number since I was brand new and they actually post the cards so you can review them and click on a link to get the pop report all in a few seconds, the team at SGC prevailed and now I'm waiting for the results, my cards have been there for about 2 1/2 weeks now.

Long story short, I'm on the east coast PSA doesn't have my business any more and yes the holder is more attractive in the SGC holder no matter what anybody says.

Toppsz? So what exactly are you saying? I am just confused on the point you are trying to make.....You said "long story short" 3 times.....Why are you happy when your cards have been at SGC for almost 3 weeks, and you have still not received them?

I'm guessing he sent them in on the post-1948 grading tier (just a guess since none of this month's specials apply to the cards he submitted) which is a 20 business day turnaround. His cards have been there about 13-14 business days. That means they won't pop for another week. What's is so confusing about that? Maybe to someone that is willing to wait 2-3 months on a PSA submission can't understand that, but I understood him just fine.

David- no offense, but you need to get an anti-psa shot...probably will do you good. Also, you had stated SGC never, never made grading mistakes on paper loss or wrinkles.....ANY CHATTER?

Kevin, no offense taken. I just don't like PSA. If someone offers a crappy service, I take my business elsewhere. I'm funny that way.

There are many threads on the CU boards complaining about turnaround times, yet they still take the abuse over and over. I don't get it. There are also many threads complaining about the grades they receive. My solution would be to find another service. Their solution? Crack and re-submit. In other words, they think that PSA didn't get it right the first time, but they're going to pay them (and trust them) to do it again? What's the definition of insanity? To keep doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.

No offense to you either Kevin, but I don't understand your stance with PSA. Any time an ovegraded card is shown, your answer is "mechanical error." And it's not just you, that is the common answer to PSA screw ups. I'll show this card card again. Untampered! Is this the kind of company you want to grade your cards? Come on, say it. "Mechanical error."

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x...rew_PSA-10.jpg

All I ever got from my short experience with PSA was misgraded cards and gouged on shipping.

Upon becoming a member of the exclusive PSA club, I also received numerous publications I never asked for or read. I even received double issues of a large T206 coffee table book which cost the company $27.00 each to ship to Canada from California.

I did have to contact SGC via email about a shipping to question Canada and received a quick reply and felt they were willing to accomodate my needs any way they could. Very professional in my opinion.

David- point taken. But, the bottom line is psa graded vintage cards blow sgc graded cards out of the water price wise, (and i have many of each). Can i explain it? Is it a coincidence? Why do all major auction houses prefer psa graded cards versus sgc?? Anybody that says they don't care about "resale value, and only the integrity of collecting and the hobby", please, i want to hire you! Money is money. At some point, re-sale value is important. Please stop with the sgc bullshit. They give t206s with rounded corners a grade of 5, and PSA would give it a 3.5 max

Kevin, I wish you could explain it because I don't see it. Maybe slightly, but not like everybody makes it out to be. I was looking on VCP today at '54 Topps Aaron rookie because there is one on the Live Auction forum (and it's the last one I need to finish my '54 set). Here are VCP prices:

PSA 4 $560
SGC 50 $565

PSA 5 $750
SGC 60 $810

PSA 6 $1163
SGC 80 $1350

PSA 7 $2045
SGC 84 $2061

This is just one card and I didn't purposely pick it to prove my point. I just happen to be looking at it today and noticed the price difference between PSA and SGC. However, I will concede that for the most part PSA cards do outsell their SGC counterparts, but again I think it is very slightly (not blow them out of the water).

However, as I stated earlier in this thread I am a buyer and not a seller. As a buyer I perfer SGC. If I was selling, I would probably go with PSA.

David- pre-war vintage cards! It's not even close, especially t206s!

Please forgive me if I am wrong about this - I am admittedly still learning as I collect in the vintage market...but besides the high end T206 cards in the recent REA auction, is it me or did they disproportionately submit vintage cards on behalf of their consignors to SGC? It just seemed to me that besides the 'top top' stuff they leaned heavily to SGC.

Again, this may be just me and/or not an accurate representation of the major auction house market, but they seem to be one of the only ones that discloses who did the submitting (the house or the consignor).

But that's dishonest. I won't allow myself to put my integrity in stake for the sake of money. I would rather sell an accuratly graded card for what it's worth and if condition warrants add a bit extra on it.

I used to spend between 1-4k a month on cards and memoribelia before my kid got sick and now only very little if I sell something or do some side work for people. I always bought SGC cards and very very few PSA cards for my sets. I could have crossed the so called under graded cards to PSA holders and made a lot more when I sold them but I believe what the flip said was accurate to me so I got what they were worth and not what the flip said. Now I chase certain backs so as long as the card is valued based on condition I could care less if it's in a PRO holder.

Here's a tip -- if you wouldn't feel comfortable posting it on a thread don't send it to me in a private message. Not sure what's worse -- gossip that's intended just for me, or gossip that's intended for a wider viewing audience.

Now I am sure you were trying to make a point, and just didn't feel comfortable sharing people's names. But the only thing I care about is that SGC 60s don't have wrinkles and too many PSA 5s do. Please save your personal drama about the chronies for someone else who cares. If you want to send me scans of SGC 60s that are messed up, my email line is wide open. Still waiting for that one ...just one...scan.

Paul
 

Do say or think whatever you must I am done trying to help.

Oh, you were "trying to help"? Here I thought we were having an old fashioned disagreement and you were trying to prove you were right, while calling me a "fanboy" and a "fool" along the way.

But, i appreciate your allowing me to have an opinion. In case anyone is keeping track, that's three days now without a single scan of an SGC 60 with a wrinkle or crease.

Would you like to see an SGC '4' that looks like, and graded an '8'?

Or would you prefer to see the SGC '3' that they later deemed to be trimmed??

In other words, you don't have a scan of a card graded SGC 60 or higher with a crease or a card graded SGC 50 or higher with paper loss? That's what I'm hearing. Give us something we can see that we can all look at and agree, "Yup, SGC screwed that one up," not a story of a card you used to own or your friend owned or that you once saw at a dealer booth or anything else - give us visual proof.

+1

Not really helpful. Again, just want a scan of an SGC 60+ with a wrinkle or a crease. I know there must be one out there. SGC are human after all. They are not IMMORTAL GODS incapable of making mistakes.

.....or are they?!?!?!?!?!

Carfax
 

This situation reminds me of the CarFax commercials. We're the buyers on the dealership lot asking to see the CarFax report (SGC 60 w/crease or SGC 50 w/paper loss) and the salesman (Bobby) wants to show us everything else.

i disagree. Bobby's point is that SGC, like PSA, has overgraded and undergraded cards, and I would add graded cards that should have been rejected. That we don't happen to have a specific example of this within an artificially narrow category of errors doesn't negate the general proposition. Both companies make mistakes.

This is not "an artificially narrow category of errors." You say that "SGC, like PSA, has overgraded . . . cards." A lot of what "overgrading" means is subjective. It's in the eye of the beholder. PSA fans think SGC is soft on corners, for example.

But, in my view, overgrading means giving a card a grade without noticing paper loss or a crease. Where this would be "overgrading" would be at the EX level and above. We are looking for examples of this.

I do not think this is a "narrow category." Just because there are so far no examples does not mean that a category is "narrow."

Also, just to show I'm not a total shill, here's my latest pick up, courtesy of the B/S/T about 6 minutes ago. Looks to be a total beaut! (Thanks Bill!)

<a href="https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/ugV5LeyJZhSMf8kD-wRz6EbbPrYp6YHrRqcN_cfzkkQ?feat=embedwebsite"><img src="https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-6VfZDM9SZLU/T-3ENFYIBRI/AAAAAAAALDI/ew-pr_UUm3U/s640/Oldring_Fielding_PSA_5.jpg" height="640" width="375" /></a>

Likewise, I buy PSA cards as well. Here's one that arrived just yesterday.

http://i.ebayimg.com/t/1941-Play-Bal...!Fw~~60_12.JPG

Of course, it didn't stay in that crappy holder very long :D

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x...sGehringer.jpg

t206 vs SGC
 

I would like to start another poll.
How many people think this thread has run its course.
I get it. Some collectors like SGC better and some people like PSA Better. Some people like both ,some people hate both.Thats what makes this country great. You have a choice and you can spend your money any way you want. But lets STOP trying to sell each other on either grading company.Use or dont use either company. None of my buisness. Both companys are doing fine as we keep submitting the cards. I use PSA but could care less who else uses them. I dont work for them nor do I get any favors or discounts if I convert SGC users to PSA . So I dont. I am sure this also goes for the SGC loyalists.
Lets put this thread to rest and talk about something interesting.

Thats just my 2 cents plus $17.50 for return shipping.

Enjoy the Hobby! It should be Fun. Lets stop beating up each other for the sake of TPG COMPANYS.

John P

Given that this topic is a recurring one -- I think it would be nice if we had one place -- just this place -- to go to throw chairs at each other over grading companies.

I kinda thought that was the purpose of this poll and thread...

The last definitive fight on this topic. An epic, historic battle for virtue.

Odds are this won't be the last fight on this topic. Since it's very relevant to the hobby they don't bother me. Both companies do a decent job. The one time I spoke with Joe O (last year's National) he and I spoke about his company as well as other grading companies. He is fully aware there is competition and thinks as I do, competition is good. We also both know that each company will have their own customers as well as customers that use all of the grading companies. He really did have a good handle on this kind of debate, imo. I see no harm in hashing it out as long we we can keep it sort of professional.

Paul I think you got screwed on that PSA card. I do believe there there is a crease right along his rear end:D

Like I said, this happens all the time in PSA 5s. SGC has never graded one of these higher than a 40....


;)

I don't have enough experience with SGC to make an assessment either way. I've had ten years of experience with PSA and in the 4 days since this poll was started I really couldn't think of a good thing to say about them.

In fact, probably the greatest regret in my life is getting my vast collection graded by PSA and being involved in the PSA Registry, which in the final analysis turned out to be nothing short of a horrific nightmare.

Based on my ten years of dealing with PSA, I have absolutely no confidence in PSA's ability to detect doctored cards and by all appearances and personal encounters by myself and other trusted friends, PSA doesn't seem to want to address their problems. I have absolutely no respect for PSA's management.

There really needs to be an independent organization that holds PSA and all other grading companies accountable for their business practices. In short, someone needs to grade the grading companies and make a thorough assessment of how competent (or incompetent) they really are.

I agree Dan, your work on detecting doctored cards is certainly the best.

One cool thing about collecting n172, for me, is the amount of raw cards in the hobby. In two months of shopping, only two of the cards I bought were graded, an SGC Roger Conner, now raw, and a PSA deasley, also now raw as well.

Dan, how do you really feel? :D