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-   Net54baseball Sports (Primarily) Vintage Memorabilia Forum incl. Game Used (http://www.net54baseball.com/forumdisplay.php?f=5)
-   -   Heritage Auction problem (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=152317)

whitehse 06-14-2012 09:25 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heritage Sports (Post 1002960)
Right off the bat, we’re going to start with an admission that we screwed up. Several of the accusations levied against Heritage are far off base, but we’ll acknowledge that we did make a mistake (or perhaps more than one) in regard to the initial poster’s situation. The lot had been listed in our previous Signature auction and when it did not sell, it was moved to our May auction. In the interim the consignor requested the return of the item and somehow we did not remove it from our books. The jersey was long gone by the time the May auction even began, but since the copy had been written and the photos taken, we didn’t realize it until the sale was complete. The later customer service issues were due to the fact that that department misinterpreted the data in our system—this is a 400+ employee company, and there was a breakdown in communication. I would suggest that should any situation like this arise again, the client would be best served by contacting the Sports department directly. Understand that we accept full fault on this and we make no excuses, only an explanation. I would hope that common sense would dictate that any belief that Heritage would risk its reputation, and the $800+ million in annual sales derived from it, on shady dealings over a piece worth hundreds of dollars, is in error.

And so we do apologize for our initial mistake, and for the imperfect handling of the resolution. But if our simple pledge of honest dealings isn’t enough, we would hope that a logical consideration of the risk/reward dynamic would be enough to convince even the most cynical among us.

We’d apply that statement to this troubling and utterly false suggestion of shill bidding as well. It simply does not happen at Heritage. It’s an unfortunate fact that a small percentage of bids are not honored. We do make every attempt to settle all accounts, but in the end it is simply impossible to extract payment from someone who is unwilling (or, in many cases, unable) to honor his bids. Heritage has, by far, the largest collectibles bidding clientele outside of eBay, and unfortunately there will be a few bad eggs in a carton that size. The upside is World Record prices—the bidder who paid $418,000 for the Bill Buckner ball, for example, had never bid in a collectibles auction before, but we were all over the news and he signed up the day before the auction. The downside with such a volume of clients is that a very small percentage of invoices in a 2,700 lot auction are inevitably not paid.

It should go without saying that all reneging bidders are banned. It likely doesn’t go without saying—so we’ll say it—that our consignment agreements clearly state that unsold properties can be transferred to the next available auction at our discretion. So, for example, Heritage was completely within its legal rights to retain Mr. Borkin’s unsold ring for placement in our August auction, but we instead returned it and forfeited several thousand dollars in commissions accordingly. This should stick a pin in any belief that shilling, or any other form of auction treachery, was at play.

And, speaking of banned clients, we’ll close with a clarification. Richard Simon and Travis Roste claim that their accounts were suspended by Heritage for negative comments posted on the board. While we’d admit there is an uncomfortable irony in simultaneously bashing and patronizing a business, that’s not the reason. Simon’s account, as well as several others’, was suspended for allegedly working in conjunction with a man known to the law enforcement world (and on this board and http://whitebetsy.wordpress.com/) as “The Cooperstown Forger.” Roste’s account was suspended after a campaign of harrassment of our executives in May of 2011.

To paraphrase the great Vince Lombardi, we won’t ever be perfect, but in the pursuit of perfection we’ll achieve greatness. We are human and mistakes will inevitably be made, but it’s important to bear in mind that boards such as these paint a very distorted picture. On any topic at all, as we all know, you’re far more likely to hear complaints than praise. Our most recent Signature Sports auction included over 400 consignors—ask around, and you’ll quickly learn that’s many multiples the hobby average. There’s a reason for this, and it’s the quality of our overall service. Heritage Sports sells close to 15,000 lots annually—that’s a huge volume of transactions, many multiples that of some of our top competitors. Babe Ruth struck out 1,330 times; Mariano Rivera has struck out once in his career. Who’s the better hitter?
So you had to go there and tell this board why two members were banned from bidding? I would think that this would be a business decision that would be just between both parties and not to be shared with the world. And to level accusations against someone's reputation by linking Mr. Simon with a known forger would possibly be detrimental to his livelyhood is just plain unthinkable to me that you would do this.

I have never done business or spoken to Mr. Simon but I have done business with Heritage and will no longer spend my dollars with a company that would be so willing to throw their customers and their reputations under the bus to make themselves look better. I would think that the attitude that has been displayed by a Heritage executive here would do more harm to their business than do them any good. I am constantly amazed how owners and executives of companies in this hobby always seem to shoot themselves in the foot. Heritage has been added to my "do not buy" list....a list that seems to be getting smaller and smaller all the time.

And for the record, my name is Andrew White and I approve this message

travrosty 06-14-2012 09:39 AM
Especially since their reason i was banned is not true. I harrassed no one, now they level the accusation I am a harrasser. Not true. I don't think they liked the fact that a few hobbyists seem to know more about boxing autographs than the people they employ as "experts". they started to look bad and they can't have that so they throw the baby out with the bath water.

What people don't know is that there is a someone else who got banned, who is a boxing autograph hobbyist who never worked with any blog site, and also didn't harrass anyone over at heritage, and he too got his account banned. They don't seem to like boxing autograph collectors who know their trade.


When the bad ty cobb ball preview hit deadspin.com, heritage took the cobb listing down, but then they redirected the URL to a page that was suppose to be critical of the person who wrote the story.

so when people went to deadspin.com, and clicked on the link that was suppose to bring them to the bad cobb ball, they were redirected to a page that took a potshot at the writer of the story.

Is that professionalism by an auction house? Playing games like that instead of addressing the issue of why this ball was even up on their website, and with a TPA auction loa listed with it as well? Their answer to this is to redirect a link and take a potshot at someone? Professionals???

mcgwirecom 06-14-2012 10:34 AM
This is kinda off topic but not really.

I had never bought anything from Heritage before, but I bid on an item in their Sunday auction. This auction was on 5/20. I paid for my item on 5/23 in the a.m. I used a bank transfer because I figured that would get it moving the fastest and that way the auction house doesn't get charged a fee like the credit cards do. I figured thats what they would prefer. So last week I still didn't have the item and I emailed them. They said that I made the payment on 5/23 but it didn't cleaar til 5/30. Even though I made a direct bank transfer it needs to clear? OK maybe I'm confused. So now it should ship out on 5/30 right? I just emailed last night and said I had still not gotten it. I get the email back today that it is still in shipping! Hasn't even left! And this is 21 days after I paid. And 14 if you think my payment needed to clear. So this is my first dealing with them. Doesn't bode well. Maybe I will get my account cancelled now?

slidekellyslide 06-14-2012 11:04 AM
Obviously they are so large they really don't care how many Net54 bidders they lose every time Scheier posts here, but I've said it before and will say it again..the person they chose to represent their business on Net54 is arrogant and condescending. None of this surprises me though, they have in their employ a man who is banned from the Cooperstown Baseball Hall of Fame library which IMO puts them up there with the likes of Coaches Corner.

Splinte1941 06-14-2012 11:20 AM
To defend Heritage you'd have to be:

A)On the payroll/take

B) A moron

C) In bed with the owners/employees, financially or otherwise.

D) A moron

E) A moron

F) A satisfied customer

That's just my $.02

RichardSimon 06-14-2012 11:52 AM
Jonathan,
I guess I should consider it a badge of honor to have you attempt to defame me. It seems that every time you post here you cause far more harm to your organization than if you did not post.
There have been so many negative posts here about your organization and its employees that it just brings a laugh to my face.
Keep up the good work and BE PROUD of YOUR honest and quality work and bogus attempts to defame me.
Look how this thread has gone against Heritage. Like I said, good work Jonathan.

RichardSimon 06-14-2012 11:54 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by whitehse (Post 1003545)
So you had to go there and tell this board why two members were banned from bidding? I would think that this would be a business decision that would be just between both parties and not to be shared with the world. And to level accusations against someone's reputation by linking Mr. Simon with a known forger would possibly be detrimental to his livelyhood is just plain unthinkable to me that you would do this.

I have never done business or spoken to Mr. Simon but I have done business with Heritage and will no longer spend my dollars with a company that would be so willing to throw their customers and their reputations under the bus to make themselves look better. I would think that the attitude that has been displayed by a Heritage executive here would do more harm to their business than do them any good. I am constantly amazed how owners and executives of companies in this hobby always seem to shoot themselves in the foot. Heritage has been added to my "do not buy" list....a list that seems to be getting smaller and smaller all the time.

And for the record, my name is Andrew White and I approve this message
I already have been contacted by a lawyer/acquaintance (well known in the hobby and to Net54 members) encouraging me to take action.
I have also received information on several other customer service complaints about Heritage by people who are afraid of them and don't want to post, but wanted me to know their problem and wanted me to know that they thought that Jonathan is full of crap.
It is a shame that some people are afraid to speak their minds due to auction house tactics designed to inhibit criticism.
Auction houses in glass houses should not be hurling around stones though. Especially with their roster.
And to clarify one more thing in Jonathan's post, I do not patronize Heritage, I have never bought an item from them, I have never sold an item through them.

thetruthisoutthere 06-16-2012 05:10 PM
Jonathan, I found it very disappointing to read that you would even imply that Richard Simon is "allegedly working in conjunction with a man known to the law enforcement world (and on this board and http://whitebetsy.wordpress.com/) as “The Cooperstown Forger." This is a man who has stuck his neck out fighting the sellers (and the sources) of forgeries. To even imply that about Richard Simon is ludicrous.

deebro041 06-16-2012 11:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Splinte1941 (Post 1003585)
To defend Heritage you'd have to be:

A)On the payroll/take

B) A moron

C) In bed with the owners/employees, financially or otherwise.

D) A moron

E) A moron

F) A satisfied customer

That's just my $.02
OR....Your initials just happen to be J S !! Just kidding lol

RichardSimon 06-17-2012 07:41 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by travrosty (Post 1003554)

Is that professionalism by an auction house? Playing games like that instead of addressing the issue of why this ball was even up on their website, and with a TPA auction loa listed with it as well? Their answer to this is to redirect a link and take a potshot at someone? Professionals???
+1
Well said Travis.
Their behavior is more like a petulant child than a professional auction house.

Fuddjcal 06-17-2012 12:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by thetruthisoutthere (Post 1004310)
Jonathan, I found it very disappointing to read that you would even imply that Richard Simon is "allegedly working in conjunction with a man known to the law enforcement world (and on this board and http://whitebetsy.wordpress.com/) as “The Cooperstown Forger." This is a man who has stuck his neck out fighting the sellers (and the sources) of forgeries. To even imply that about Richard Simon is ludicrous.
I have to concur...what a tra la la goon D A. Admitting their mistake was all that was needed. It just goes to show what kind of idiots are in the Memorabilia Auction business. Complete and utter jack asses. Enjoy your little hobby, I'll stick to Corvettes for now.......:D

Fuddjcal 06-17-2012 12:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichardSimon (Post 1004424)
+1
Well said Travis.
Their behavior is more like a petulant child than a professional auction house.
+2

shelly 06-17-2012 01:31 PM
I have been in this hobby for fifty years, and as most of you know, 12 years ago, I was arrested for selling forged material. I was an idiot for selling bad merchandise; it was a mistake. I really have tried to do things right since then.

The reason I am even getting involved with this thread, is the way Heritage mentioned Richard and Travis in their post on this board. I really don't know Travis, but Richard Simon is a friend of mine, and I felt that because of my past and our friendship, they could be saying that I might be the HOF forger, or that Chris Williams could be the Cooperstown Forger, because he is also a friend of Richard. Jim Stinson is a friend of Richard; is he the Cooperstown Forger?

Heritage is saying things that make everyone on this board look like they could be the bad guy.

I have dealt with one of their wonder-kins in the past named Mike Gutierrez, and I have a great deal to say about Mark Jordan. I will be discussing them in great lengths, once I receive some needed items. These are the people Heritage chooses to associate with while trying to use innuendo to denigrate others.

Leon, you of all people, should protest such innuendos being placed on the board. Just pure crap to make people look bad without any proof at all being offered.

If people disagree with Heritage that is not a reason for Heritage to remove them from participating in their auctions.

Heritage, you say you know who this forger is. Tell us who you think it is. The truth is your defense. You take pride in the fact that you do $700 million in business annually. Then please explain to me why you are acting like a five and dime store.(Just showing my age).

I would also bet the letter written so perfectly by you, was done by your warm blooded lawyer.

travrosty 06-18-2012 08:23 PM
Shelly,

thank you for your post, I haven't met Shelly or known him but i do agree that the way Heritage handled it was not professional and heaven knows me and a few of my boxing friends bent over backwards to try to help them with their boxing offerings but they are always the smartest guy in the room according to them, so we gave up trying to help.

A bad piece like the "signed" Mike Tyson preprint under the frame just ended up selling, even with a cert from a major TPA.

If they have something to say they should just come out and say it and stop "implying" things.

ctownboy 06-19-2012 07:11 AM
A little off topic, but I read an article yesterday that said Heritage recently sold a dinosaur skeleton that a Texas court had ruled shouldn't be sold. The skeleton had been smuggled out of Mongolia illegally.

Auctioned dinosaur was removed illegally, say experts | MNN ...
http://www.mnn.com/earth-matters/ani...ly-say-experts

David

RichardSimon 06-19-2012 08:23 AM
That is one interesting article and quite a collectible :D.
I also want to say thanks to Shelly for his post. We have been friends for a number of years and I have witnessed many of the right things that Shelly has done to help the hobby.
Seems like attempts to intimidate Net54 members does not work very well.
Thank goodness we still have freedom of speech on this board, as long as you follow the proper rules and don't try to hide.

Maddog 06-19-2012 09:05 PM
Hi gang, although still a newbie to Net54 I feel I need to add my two cents here so please forgive my ramble.
Hopefully Heritage is still following this stink bomb of theirs so they read this.

I have followed and bid on Heritages auctions over the years and bought a fair amount of items from Rich Simon as well. I lost interest in Heritage when on several occasions my "winning bids" seemed to be trumped after the auction had closed. I have never had any form of an issue with Rich. In fact at this point I will not bid on anymore auctions because I have no trust in any of the houses. I have narrowed down the list of dealers that I will buy from to around 5 and Rich is in that 5.

It may sound corny but honesty and integrity are very important to me. To have an "alleged" idiot (hey if it covers their ass it covers mine :D) make what I felt were very disparaging comments about someone who has been trying to change the BS in our hobby for longer than I've been involved in the hobby, and offer some of the worst excuses for their negligence just makes me sick.

So to the folk at Heritage, I'll tell you what, you can ban me as well, you have my info on file.

Regards

Charles Maselli

Wite3 06-20-2012 12:34 PM
What I find bizarre is that Heritage would not contact the consignor for the original poster. Even if Heritage just put them in contact with each other, maybe they could work something out and save two customers (possibly more since no one lives in a bubble). Just bad business imho.

Joshua

Leon 06-20-2012 12:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by deebro041 (Post 1004387)
OR....Your initials just happen to be J S !! Just kidding lol
Unfortunately the person stating this, and you are agreeing with, is an admitted liar and shill bidder. So agreeing with him is maybe not as highly thought of as it was. I have spoken with a few long time board members about Heritage in the last several days. They have also stated as I believe, Heritage is an honest company that has/had some operational issues. They also should consider changing the messenger on our board. Another messenger might be more widely accepted. Each and every time I have spoken with Chris Ivy about the banning of board members from their auctions I have concluded his reasoning was sound. They have never banned anyone for only questioning an item. They will ban folks that go overboard which many of our members do. Time and time again I might add. It's all in the delivery. I can't say I blame them either. As far as saying Richard is in cahoots with an alleged forger, criminal, wanted person and allegedly the biggest crook ever in the hobby, Peter Nash, well, if information is being supplied to him then I don't know what you would call it? Maybe someone can help out here. What do you call a person that gives information to allegedly the biggest fraudster in the sports memorabilia business? I am just asking a question not making any accusations.

I want to add that I think, and have always thought, Richard is a very honest person. I am merely asking a legitimate, devils advocate question above.

David Atkatz 06-20-2012 01:02 PM
The biggest fraudster in the sports memorabilia business, without a doubt, was Barry Halper.

No one even comes close. No one ever will.

Leon 06-20-2012 01:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Atkatz (Post 1005593)
The biggest fraudster in the sports memorabilia business, without a doubt, was Barry Halper.

No one even comes close. No one ever will.
There is a difference between "is" and "was".

RichardSimon 06-20-2012 01:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leon (Post 1005589)
Unfortunately the person stating this, and you are agreeing with, is an admitted liar and shill bidder. So agreeing with him is maybe not as highly thought of as it was. I have spoken with a few long time board members about Heritage in the last several days. They have also stated as I believe, Heritage is an honest company that has/had some operational issues. They also should consider changing the messenger on our board. Another messenger might be more widely accepted. Each and every time I have spoken with Chris Ivy about the banning of board members from their auctions I have concluded his reasoning was sound. They have never banned anyone for only questioning an item. They will ban folks that go overboard which many of our members do. Time and time again I might add. It's all in the delivery. I can't say I blame them either. As far as saying Richard is in cahoots with an alleged forger, criminal, wanted person and allegedly the biggest crook ever in the hobby, Peter Nash, well, if information is being supplied to him then I don't know what you would call it? Maybe someone can help out here. What do you call a person that gives information to allegedly the biggest fraudster in the sports memorabilia business? I am just asking a question not making any accusations.

I want to add that I think, and have always thought, Richard is a very honest person. I am merely asking a legitimate, devils advocate question above.
Leon - What do you call someone who is pointing out some of the biggest problems in the hobby? If he is going to do that and in that process expose questionable practices and if he asks me for my opinion about certain things (as he has asked Ron Kerujian and a number of others on this board) then I am going to give him my opinion. If he asks me a question and wants to quote me in his blog, well Michael O Keefe has done that too. Does Heritage think he might be the Cooperstown Forger.
Many members have been happy to start new threads here linking to Hauls of Shame website. Many members apparently believe his allegations. Many members have had problems with Heritage. The number of members complaining about Heritage far exceeds the number who praise them.
Regardless of possible illegal allegations against Peter Nash, none proven at this time, I will respond to questions from him until he is accused of some criminal action. If you want to call that working in conjunction then go ahead and do it but only Heritage has accused me of doing that and I truly don't believe members here would accuse me of doing that just because I give him an opinion on an autograph and give him permission to quote me on Hauls of Shame.
I see all these complaints about Heritage posted here on Net54 and sort of just go ???. I deal with Lelands, Alexander Autograph Auctions, RR Autograph Auctions and Henry Yee. I have never had to make a complaint against any of them, either as a buyer or as a seller. I have never had an untoward incident, either as a buyer or as a seller. They are the cream of the crop and as to getting barred by Heritage, well my barrel of tears has already been disposed of.

slidekellyslide 06-20-2012 02:07 PM
Halper would buy up anything and everything and probably ate up the story that went along with it...is there any proof that the stolen items in his collection were stolen by him or at his behest? Was he duped into buying fake jerseys, misidentified photos or forged autos? Halper strikes me as a rich dude that was easily fooled and made up stories to go along with the items in his collection.

The Cooperstown forger is in another league.

David Atkatz 06-20-2012 02:09 PM
"Making up stories" when you sell an item is also known as fraud.

travrosty 06-20-2012 02:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leon (Post 1005589)
Unfortunately the person stating this, and you are agreeing with, is an admitted liar and shill bidder. So agreeing with him is maybe not as highly thought of as it was. I have spoken with a few long time board members about Heritage in the last several days. They have also stated as I believe, Heritage is an honest company that has/had some operational issues. They also should consider changing the messenger on our board. Another messenger might be more widely accepted. Each and every time I have spoken with Chris Ivy about the banning of board members from their auctions I have concluded his reasoning was sound. They have never banned anyone for only questioning an item. They will ban folks that go overboard which many of our members do. Time and time again I might add. It's all in the delivery. I can't say I blame them either. As far as saying Richard is in cahoots with an alleged forger, criminal, wanted person and allegedly the biggest crook ever in the hobby, Peter Nash, well, if information is being supplied to him then I don't know what you would call it? Maybe someone can help out here. What do you call a person that gives information to allegedly the biggest fraudster in the sports memorabilia business? I am just asking a question not making any accusations.

I want to add that I think, and have always thought, Richard is a very honest person. I am merely asking a legitimate, devils advocate question above.


Here we go with the "allegedly" again. Proof should be needed before banning someone from Heritage based on an allegation.

slidekellyslide 06-20-2012 02:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Atkatz (Post 1005616)
"Making up stories" when you sell an item is also known as fraud.
Yeah, no doubt, but did Halper know his items were fraudulent? Did someone sell him the Jackson Jersey and Halper made up the story about how he got it still believing the jersey to be legit? I think he got stuff from Al Stump who we now know was forging Ty Cobb items...did Halper know that? There was a lot of bad stuff in his collection, but I think at the time he sold it we can't be sure that he knew it was bad. Did he know that items he was buying were stolen from the Hall of Fame or the NYPL?

Leon 06-20-2012 02:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichardSimon (Post 1005610)
Leon - What do you call someone who is pointing out some of the biggest problems in the hobby? If he is going to do that and in that process expose questionable practices and if he asks me for my opinion about certain things (as he has asked Ron Kerujian and a number of others on this board) then I am going to give him my opinion. If he asks me a question and wants to quote me in his blog, well Michael O Keefe has done that too. Does Heritage think he might be the Cooperstown Forger.
Many members have been happy to start new threads here linking to Hauls of Shame website. Many members apparently believe his allegations. Many members have had problems with Heritage. The number of members complaining about Heritage far exceeds the number who praise them.
Regardless of possible illegal allegations against Peter Nash, none proven at this time, I will respond to questions from him until he is accused of some criminal action. If you want to call that working in conjunction then go ahead and do it but only Heritage has accused me of doing that and I truly don't believe members here would accuse me of doing that just because I give him an opinion on an autograph and give him permission to quote me on Hauls of Shame.
I see all these complaints about Heritage posted here on Net54 and sort of just go ???. I deal with Lelands, Alexander Autograph Auctions, RR Autograph Auctions and Henry Yee. I have never had to make a complaint against any of them, either as a buyer or as a seller. I have never had an untoward incident, either as a buyer or as a seller. They are the cream of the crop and as to getting barred by Heritage, well my barrel of tears has already been disposed of.
Maybe you need to listen to the audio tape court hearing of Peter Nash's that I have? The judge totally ridiculed and reprimanded him. He then denied his motion and granted every single one of the plaintiff's motions against him. Maybe you need to read this too....

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/200...ash/index.html

Now, all that being said....maybe Nash is trying to out fraud in the hobby and, in and of itself, that is a good thing. But when he is allegedly the biggest fraudster (and in that article I believe he admitted to it more than once) then maybe you need to rethink who you help. Totally your call.....and I do appreciate anyone that helps to rid the hobby of fraud. But I think I will help folks who aren't admitted hobby fraudsters. That's just me though....

travrosty 06-20-2012 02:21 PM
why say maybe and allegedly? if it's not proven then you can't fault someone with an association with someone who hasn't had anything proven against them, and if it IS proven, then don't say maybe he is trying to do this and that he is allegedly that. This is about getting banned from heritage for allegedly. just think of the employees of Heritage and their allegedly. is it fair both ways or not?

David Atkatz 06-20-2012 02:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by slidekellyslide (Post 1005619)
Yeah, no doubt, but did Halper know his items were fraudulent? Did someone sell him the Jackson Jersey and Halper made up the story about how he got it still believing the jersey to be legit? I think he got stuff from Al Stump who we now know was forging Ty Cobb items...did Halper know that? There was a lot of bad stuff in his collection, but I think at the time he sold it we can't be sure that he knew it was bad. Did he know that items he was buying were stolen from the Hall of Fame or the NYPL?
Did he know that the 500 HR sheet he claimed to have had signed in-person bore the same Ruth forgery as other items in his collection, such as the "Ruth's hair" piece?

I could go on. Was a very successful New Jersey businessman really as gullible and innocent as you'd like to believe?

David Atkatz 06-20-2012 02:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leon (Post 1005621)
Totally your call.....and I do appreciate anyone that helps to rid the hobby of fraud. But I think I will help folks who aren't admitted hobby fraudsters. That's just me though....
How about Shelly?

Leon 06-20-2012 02:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by travrosty (Post 1005618)
Here we go with the "allegedly" again. Proof should be needed before banning someone from Heritage based on an allegation.

As soon as you own an auction house you can make the rules. Until then you can continue to do whatever else you want to. And as for me saying "allegedly" it is because I don't have first hand knowledge. However, here is a line cut and pasted from the story I posted from SI...

"The court found in favor of Lifson, and eventually Nash signed a court order in which he admitted to having committed fraud, without specifying how"


So again, with that quote, how is Richard not working with a fraudster?

Leon 06-20-2012 02:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Atkatz (Post 1005626)
How about Shelly?
Going back to the "is" and "was". Shelly has admitted his mistakes and paid the price. I have no issue with Shelly whatsoever.

BTW, I will be GONE for the next 3 hours or so.....so I am not ignoring comments I am just leaving for a while....back later.....

slidekellyslide 06-20-2012 02:32 PM
If Peter Nash is going to go down then a lot of people are going to go down with him, and I think that's the only reason his website exists. It's hard not to want to get involved in helping bring the bad guys down, even if that means supplying information to the bad guy. Look at the comments on his site and you'll see some pretty famous people (Within the baseball historian/author world) helping him out. Dave Grob wrote an entire article that showed up on his website and his reputation in the hobby is GOLD. Whatever Nash's motivation for rooting out the bad (while obviously ignoring his own participation) I don't fault anyone for trying to help uncover fraud.

David Atkatz 06-20-2012 02:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leon (Post 1005628)
Going back to the "is" and "was". Shelly has admitted his mistakes and paid the price. I have no issue with Shelly whatsoever.

BTW, I will be GONE for the next 3 hours or so.....so I am not ignoring comments I am just leaving for a while....back later.....
But I thought you just said that Peter admitted his mistakes in court. And Peter has done far more for this hobby--and has the knowledge to continue doing so--than Shelly ever has. Shelly is nothing more than an "expert"in his own transgressions--he can recognize Marino forgeries (who can't, though?) and nothing else.

slidekellyslide 06-20-2012 02:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Atkatz (Post 1005624)
Did he know that the 500 HR sheet he claimed to have had signed in-person bore the same Ruth forgery as other items in his collection, such as the "Ruth's hair" piece?

I could go on. Was a very successful New Jersey businessman really as gullible and innocent as you'd like to believe?
David, I don't find him to be innocent at all...he was without a doubt a liar, a lot of the rest is up for speculation and hard to prove now that he's dead. I just think (my opinion) that he is not in the same league with the Cooperstown forger. Most of Halper's crap was pretty easily detected to be crap with a little homework.

RichardSimon 06-20-2012 02:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leon (Post 1005621)
Maybe you need to listen to the audio tape court hearing of Peter Nash's that I have? The judge totally ridiculed and reprimanded him. He then denied his motion and granted every single one of the plaintiff's motions against him. Maybe you need to read this too....

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/200...ash/index.html

Now, all that being said....maybe Nash is trying to out fraud in the hobby and, in and of itself, that is a good thing. But when he is allegedly the biggest fraudster (and in that article I believe he admitted to it more than once) then maybe you need to rethink who you help. Totally your call.....and I do appreciate anyone that helps to rid the hobby of fraud. But I think I will help folks who aren't admitted hobby fraudsters. That's just me though....
Leon - Maybe my focus is narrow but I look at the work he is doing now and also, as you, think it is a good thing. If someone wants to do that type of work now, and wants a quote from me or would like my opinion about the authenticity of an autograph, then I will give him the quote and look at the autograph.
This is not excusing things in his past but unless evidence becomes available to the public proving him to be the Cooperstown Forger then nobody can really say that he is the Cooperstown Forger.

David Atkatz 06-20-2012 02:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by slidekellyslide (Post 1005633)
David, I don't find him to be innocent at all...he was without a doubt a liar, a lot of the rest is up for speculation and hard to prove now that he's dead. I just think (my opinion) that he is not in the same league with the Cooperstown forger. Most of Halper's crap was pretty easily detected to be crap with a little homework.
Halper was certainly not in the same league as the Cooperstown forger skill-wise, knowledge of baseball history-wise, and, most importantly, intelligence-wise. But (in my opinion), he is (was) every bit as much as a crook.

RichardSimon 06-20-2012 03:04 PM
Leon - why do you keep saying I am working with him?
Are you quoted in various other blogs on the internet? I assume so.
Are you giving an opinion on various cards when people ask you about them? I assume so.
Do you consider that you are working in conjunction with those people who ask you for a quote or your opinion on cards?
If you consider those things to be working with someone tell me because our definitions are different in this matter.

RichardSimon 06-20-2012 03:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leon (Post 1005628)
Going back to the "is" and "was". Shelly has admitted his mistakes and paid the price. I have no issue with Shelly whatsoever.

....
+1
At least we can agree on this.

travrosty 06-20-2012 03:28 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Jewell

Believing that someone did something is one thing, but taking action based only on allegations is wrong. "you are an associate of Richard Jewell? Well, he is allegedly the olympic park bomber so I can't let you rent this townhouse from me." What kind b.s. is that?

Auction houses need to either take away "allegedly" or apologize for taking those actions based only on allegations. But have a spine one way or the other.

so allegedly is good enough for heritage? They can run their auction house the way they want, yes, they can. That's what the original criticism was all about. Many thought they weren't running it in a particularly fair way.

For that people got banned, and I think Heritage discussing the specifics of why people got banned privately with Leon isn't right or fair for a professional auction house to do. They either need to post it openly for all so we can defend ourselves, or keep quiet.

Remember, whatever Ivy says is on behalf of Heritage and if I was Ivy and someone asked me (remember, I am heritage) exactly the circumstances why someone had their account banned, the proper answer for me would have been

I am sorry but I cant discuss company policy and private bidder information and communications with you.

Can I just call up any auction house and ask questions of any bidder they have and what this bidder, said, has done and what their emails say? I don't care if they release emails, but do it out in the open so everyone can decide.

I said they lied when they posted auction items open for live bidding that said "jsa auction loa" when even by their own admission, Heritage said the loa's wren't issued yet.

Saying something that ain't true is lying. When they ignored me I went to the top, Steve Ivy, Chairman and CEO, and I got no response, then I was banned.

Jonathan already said why we were banned. Evidently you wanted the dirt and the "real" story. Well if you did, ask them to have Jonathan put it all out here for everyone, because if they just tell you only, and you say you agree with Heritage that they did the right thing, then you let people draw their own conclusions without THEM having any of the facts- only based on the fact that "if leon agrees, then they must have did something bad".

Poor way to do it by a professional auction house.

travrosty 06-20-2012 03:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Atkatz (Post 1005638)
Halper was certainly not in the same league as the Cooperstown forger skill-wise, knowledge of baseball history-wise, and, most importantly, intelligence-wise. But (in my opinion), he is (was) every bit as much as a crook.

Halper said that he got ruth's auto in person on babe ruth day when Halper was a kid , then he said his dad gave him the sheet with ruth's auto already on it.

then they find an envelope and letter with (incredibly) the same type of ruth's signature on it. Jsa calls it a non-malicious secretarial ruth signature.

Halper says he played baseball at miami with foxx as his coach. proven to be impossible as foxx left before halper enrolled, and none of the teammates remember halper as he never played basebal there and is not pictured with the team in any photograph.

Halper then says his coach Foxx asked him to come into the office with the sheet because Ott was visiting tomorrow so he brought the sheet into his office for Foxx and Ott to sign.

In another story halper says that he brought the sheet to the field to have Foxx sign it.

Halper had stories on how he obtained both mantles rookie jersey and reggie jackson's rookie jersey. He used these provenance stories to bolster the jerseys until he talked up mantle and reggie and convinced them that this was their rookie jersey and had them sign letters to that effect. Then he dropped his original provenance stories and used mantles and jackson's own signed letters as provenance and Jackson's jersey even had the wrong number on it.

Whether he knew mantles and jackson jersey were definitely fake I don't know, but he knew how to upgrade provenance, that's for sure.

Wite3 06-20-2012 11:19 PM
How about this take on Peter Nash...

This is just speculation but makes a weird kind of sense...

ALLEGEDLY,

He is a business man who is trying to get rid of the competition...maybe he is outing fraud as a means to increase his profit. If he can become the best supplier of faked, inaccurate, and fraudulent material, then he will make the most money. A little bit of misdirection on his part will create a better business and profit margin for his "stuff." Sort of like the cigarette companies giving millions of dollars to cancer research or the mob setting up orphanages.

Just a thought.

Joshua

travrosty 06-21-2012 01:54 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leon (Post 1005621)
Maybe you need to listen to the audio tape court hearing of Peter Nash's that I have? The judge totally ridiculed and reprimanded him. He then denied his motion and granted every single one of the plaintiff's motions against him. Maybe you need to read this too....

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/200...ash/index.html

Now, all that being said....maybe Nash is trying to out fraud in the hobby and, in and of itself, that is a good thing. But when he is allegedly the biggest fraudster (and in that article I believe he admitted to it more than once) then maybe you need to rethink who you help. Totally your call.....and I do appreciate anyone that helps to rid the hobby of fraud. But I think I will help folks who aren't admitted hobby fraudsters. That's just me though....


You will help folks who aren't admitted hobby fraudsters.


Did the photographs sprout legs and walk out of the NYPL or did someone get caught and admit to it to SI? Glad their banner ad is not allowed here lest we say one thing and do another.

Not accusing anyone of anything, just asking a question, playing devil's advocate.

Leon 06-21-2012 06:49 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by travrosty (Post 1005819)
You will help folks who aren't admitted hobby fraudsters.


Did the photographs sprout legs and walk out of the NYPL or did someone get caught and admit to it to SI? Glad their banner ad is not allowed here lest we say one thing and do another.

Not accusing anyone of anything, just asking a question, playing devil's advocate.
Travis- Your analogies are so off based I am not even going to respond to you anymore. You really should find a hobby where you get enjoyment. Be happy my friend. Have a good day and happy collecting.

murphusa 06-21-2012 07:32 AM
from SI

"The hobby is mostly filled with low-life hucksters"

HRBAKER 06-21-2012 07:34 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by murphusa (Post 1005854)
from SI

"The hobby is mostly filled with low-life hucksters"
That would be a hard point to argue on a lot of days.

slidekellyslide 06-21-2012 08:22 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wite3 (Post 1005809)
How about this take on Peter Nash...

This is just speculation but makes a weird kind of sense...

ALLEGEDLY,

He is a business man who is trying to get rid of the competition...maybe he is outing fraud as a means to increase his profit. If he can become the best supplier of faked, inaccurate, and fraudulent material, then he will make the most money. A little bit of misdirection on his part will create a better business and profit margin for his "stuff." Sort of like the cigarette companies giving millions of dollars to cancer research or the mob setting up orphanages.

Just a thought.

Joshua
He is under so much scrutiny right now I don't think he would dare...I think the simplest explanation is that he got caught and is now trying to take down everyone with him.

travrosty 06-21-2012 09:55 AM
have a super day,

just thought it was a no tolerance policy and not a sliding scale, whatever, moving on.

the reason haulsofshame deserves peoples support is that it is one of the biggest, most aggresive website trying to combat the problems in the hobby.

Most people agree the hobby is suffering from forgeries in the autograph realm, helped along by tpa's and auction houses that either trust the tpa's or don't do their own investigations into the fakes, reprints, preprints, autopens, secretarials, stamps, reproductions, copies, laser copies, etc.

A lot of collectors won't even mention a TPA name online for fear of reprisal. Or an auction house. You do and you get banned from an auction house, pigeonholed, castigated, harangued, and worse. People will ask you to leave the hobby if you hate it that much. They ask you why you don't want to help the TPA's to make the hobby better, but if helping them pass a stamped Campanella signature is helping the TPA's, then count me out. It's a closed loop system. You aren't invited to help the TPA's get better. They are comfortable with what they are doing now.

People putting their neck on the line by standing up to subpar authentication and auction house policies are trying to HELP the hobby. Would Heritage have done anything about the premature "auction loa" listings if we just gave up after the first round of a ten round bout? NO, hauls of shame keeps hammering, collectors keep hammering, and it took a nash article on a ty cobb ball that had one of these auction loa when there wasn't one - for Heritage to FINALLY do something, and then act like this was some type of a new problem, and they will fix it for the good of the hobby and that they never posted and item with a premature auciton loa that was up for live bidding. (not true and we proved it and posted the weekly internet auctions where that was happening on numerous occasions.) I threw up my lunch.

I love the hobby, I hate the system of backdoor authentication based on who is submitting, the limited or non existant expertise in many areas (boxing anyone?) that promulgate the growing population of these preprints, forgeries and secretarials that are increasingly showing up in a slab with many humming the same chorus, that it is encapsulated for unquestioned authenticity.

The tpa's website say that, along with the tagline that they have pooled together the world's experts. Did they really search over the whole world? Why is everyone from the U.S. then? Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.

The people who work there keep saying the same thing over and over again. That is you see an LOA from them, you can be assured you are getting the real deal, an authentic autograph. Oh please!

How many websites out there are trying to combat the fakes and stolen stuff? Not many, Hauls of shame does, and I support any effort that does. I commend Richard Simon for supporting these efforts too.

RichardSimon 06-21-2012 10:21 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by murphusa (Post 1005854)
from SI

"The hobby is mostly filled with low-life hucksters"
How terribly sad that statement is. Sad and true.

Cardboard Junkie 06-21-2012 10:24 AM
[QUOTE=travrosty;1005915] I threw up my lunch.


It's enough to make a man puke up his soul.

peterose4hof 06-21-2012 11:06 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by travrosty (Post 1005915)
have a super day,

just thought it was a no tolerance policy and not a sliding scale, whatever, moving on.

the reason haulsofshame deserves peoples support is that it is one of the biggest, most aggresive website trying to combat the problems in the hobby.

Most people agree the hobby is suffering from forgeries in the autograph realm, helped along by tpa's and auction houses that either trust the tpa's or don't do their own investigations into the fakes, reprints, preprints, autopens, secretarials, stamps, reproductions, copies, laser copies, etc.

A lot of collectors won't even mention a TPA name online for fear of reprisal. Or an auction house. You do and you get banned from an auction house, pigeonholed, castigated, harangued, and worse. People will ask you to leave the hobby if you hate it that much. They ask you why you don't want to help the TPA's to make the hobby better, but if helping them pass a stamped Campanella signature is helping the TPA's, then count me out. It's a closed loop system. You aren't invited to help the TPA's get better. They are comfortable with what they are doing now.

People putting their neck on the line by standing up to subpar authentication and auction house policies are trying to HELP the hobby. Would Heritage have done anything about the premature "auction loa" listings if we just gave up after the first round of a ten round bout? NO, hauls of shame keeps hammering, collectors keep hammering, and it took a nash article on a ty cobb ball that had one of these auction loa when there wasn't one - for Heritage to FINALLY do something, and then act like this was some type of a new problem, and they will fix it for the good of the hobby and that they never posted and item with a premature auciton loa that was up for live bidding. (not true and we proved it and posted the weekly internet auctions where that was happening on numerous occasions.) I threw up my lunch.

I love the hobby, I hate the system of backdoor authentication based on who is submitting, the limited or non existant expertise in many areas (boxing anyone?) that promulgate the growing population of these preprints, forgeries and secretarials that are increasingly showing up in a slab with many humming the same chorus, that it is encapsulated for unquestioned authenticity.

The tpa's website say that, along with the tagline that they have pooled together the world's experts. Did they really search over the whole world? Why is everyone from the U.S. then? Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.

The people who work there keep saying the same thing over and over again. That is you see an LOA from them, you can be assured you are getting the real deal, an authentic autograph. Oh please!

How many websites out there are trying to combat the fakes and stolen stuff? Not many, Hauls of shame does, and I support any effort that does. I commend Richard Simon for supporting these efforts too.

Obviously you don't spend much time on the Vintage Card Forum. You can't throw a stone without hitting a post ranting about "TPA's suck", "here's another trimmed card with a numerical grade", "since when does a card with paper loss get graded EXMT", etc...

benjulmag 06-21-2012 11:55 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by travrosty (Post 1005915)
have a super day,

just thought it was a no tolerance policy and not a sliding scale, whatever, moving on.

the reason haulsofshame deserves peoples support is that it is one of the biggest, most aggresive website trying to combat the problems in the hobby.

Most people agree the hobby is suffering from forgeries in the autograph realm, helped along by tpa's and auction houses that either trust the tpa's or don't do their own investigations into the fakes, reprints, preprints, autopens, secretarials, stamps, reproductions, copies, laser copies, etc.

A lot of collectors won't even mention a TPA name online for fear of reprisal. Or an auction house. You do and you get banned from an auction house, pigeonholed, castigated, harangued, and worse. People will ask you to leave the hobby if you hate it that much. They ask you why you don't want to help the TPA's to make the hobby better, but if helping them pass a stamped Campanella signature is helping the TPA's, then count me out. It's a closed loop system. You aren't invited to help the TPA's get better. They are comfortable with what they are doing now.

People putting their neck on the line by standing up to subpar authentication and auction house policies are trying to HELP the hobby. Would Heritage have done anything about the premature "auction loa" listings if we just gave up after the first round of a ten round bout? NO, hauls of shame keeps hammering, collectors keep hammering, and it took a nash article on a ty cobb ball that had one of these auction loa when there wasn't one - for Heritage to FINALLY do something, and then act like this was some type of a new problem, and they will fix it for the good of the hobby and that they never posted and item with a premature auciton loa that was up for live bidding. (not true and we proved it and posted the weekly internet auctions where that was happening on numerous occasions.) I threw up my lunch.

I love the hobby, I hate the system of backdoor authentication based on who is submitting, the limited or non existant expertise in many areas (boxing anyone?) that promulgate the growing population of these preprints, forgeries and secretarials that are increasingly showing up in a slab with many humming the same chorus, that it is encapsulated for unquestioned authenticity.

The tpa's website say that, along with the tagline that they have pooled together the world's experts. Did they really search over the whole world? Why is everyone from the U.S. then? Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.

The people who work there keep saying the same thing over and over again. That is you see an LOA from them, you can be assured you are getting the real deal, an authentic autograph. Oh please!

How many websites out there are trying to combat the fakes and stolen stuff? Not many, Hauls of shame does, and I support any effort that does. I commend Richard Simon for supporting these efforts too.
So if during the height of Prohibition Al Capone published a newspaper devoted to exposing mob influence in all areas except those he was involved in, you would regard him as one of the good guys deserving of public support?

bender07 06-21-2012 10:09 PM
I had my mind blown twice in this thread...

1. The "Cooperstown Forger" is allegedly Peter Nash who maintains Hauls of Shame...crazy but more shockingly...
2. Peter Nash is the white guy from 3rd Bass!?!? Pop, pop, goes the weasel indeed!

Back to your regularly scheduled program...

thekingofclout 06-21-2012 11:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by benjulmag (Post 1005967)
So if during the height of Prohibition Al Capone published a newspaper devoted to exposing mob influence in all areas except those he was involved in, you would regard him as one of the good guys deserving of public support?
really like

travrosty 06-22-2012 08:31 PM
I am tired of the word allegedly, that word doesnt mean anything to me, because i have seen too many people in the autograph industry allegedly do this and that and the other thing. one guy on a forum somewhere asked people if i was a forger. so that doesn't do a lot for me. anybody could just then start a thread saying i was allegedly a forger because someone somewhere else brought up the question. so that's just stupid.

a nameless author doesnt mention any names and people infer allegations, it's not even direct allegations, and that is suppose to impress people?

I allege that former heavyweight boxing champion Robert Fitzsimmons was a forger and he forged a lot. What what kind of credence do people put in that if I don't have any proof?

travrosty 06-24-2012 02:54 PM
1 Attachment(s)
Here's a photo of him forging, along with an example of a forged piece of his.

CarltonHendricks 06-24-2012 03:43 PM
details of Fitzsimmons photo display
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by travrosty (Post 1007131)
Here's a photo of him forging, along with an example of a forged piece of his.
What are the details of that great Fitzsimmons photo and horseshoe?...is that from your collection?...what are the photo dimensions, and their history etc?

travrosty 06-24-2012 03:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by CarltonHendricks (Post 1007145)
What are the details of that great Fitzsimmons photo and horseshoe?...is that from your collection?...what are the photo dimensions, and their history etc?


no, its not from my collection,i just found it on the web.

Being a blacksmith by trade, fitzsimmons made several of these type of presentational horseshoes that he would give out to friends of his. They are valuable collectors pieces and they come up at auction from time to time.

yanks12025 06-24-2012 06:23 PM
Can someone tell me who Peter Nash is? I've heard his names many times, but nothing really about him.


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