I was able to figure out what the other sign said that I originally (but incorrectly) thought said "Wayne Knit Hosiery" but had white writing along the bottom. It's actually ...

The Winning Pennant
Young's Hats
None Better Made
Stores on Broadway and Fifth Avenue

1. The first picture is the one I posted earlier with the red arrow.

2. The second picture is opening day 1908 and displayed on a different location of the fence. (This is the best close-up I could find).

Link: http://mightyflynn.tumblr.com/post/4...8-new-york-new

This will likely conclude my contibution to this thread. As much as I would like to find a good close up of the "Wayne Knit Hosiery" portion of the fence, I have looked everywhere I can think of and it appears that one may not exist. And if one does exist, I have no clue where to search that I haven't already looked. So in conclusion, I'd like to sum up by saying it is my opinion that ...

1. The Ty Cobb photograph was taken near the right field fence at Hilltop Park, New York. (Exact game unknown).

2. The advertisment on the fence reads "Wayne Knit Hosiery/Makes The Home Run Right."

3. The photograph was taken during the 1911 baseball season.

Thanks for allowing me to indulge myself ... indulging is what I do best!

Respectfully,

BOB52

horzverti ~

I realize that by this time next week your Ty Cobb photo will be on it's way to it's new owner and that will be the end of it. However, like all good detectives, I am required to report my findings as new evidence presents itself. In other words, based on some information that came to my attention recently, I now suspect that your photo might have been taken as early as 1910. In support of this new theory of mine, please consider the following ...

1. According to numerous accounts, especially the following New York Times newspaper article, the center field bleachers at Hilltop Park were not available for use by spectators until April of 1911. After opening the link, scroll to .. (All from the Times, click to enlarge), where you can read the entire article for yourself. Use the + that pops up to read.

Link: http://1911athletics.blogspot.com/20...1_archive.html

2. Other sources, including Wikipedia, indicate the center field bleachers were not available until 1912. But irregardless of those other accounts, the New York Times article clearly establishes the correct date as 1911.

3. The very last game ever played at Hilltop Park was in October of 1912.

4. Thus, any and all photos of Hilltop Park that show the center field bleachers have to be from either 1911 or 1912. The center field bleachers did not exist in 1910.

5. Now closely examine the two photographs below.

1st photo ... Clearly shows the center field bleachers in addition to the "Young's Hats" advertisement on the fence. Because of the presence of the bleachers, this photo has to be from either 1911 or 1912.

2nd photo ... Clearly shows what I have confirmed to be the "Wayne Knit Hosiery" advertisment on the fence. However, notice the two buildings on the left and that there are no center field bleachers in front of them. Because of the absence of the the bleachers, this photo has to be from 1910 at the latest. (Are the bleachers not visible because of camera angle? I seriously doubt it! There are at least three more signs to the left of the "Wayne Knit Hosiery" sign. Whereas in the other photo there are only about two signs to the left of the "Young's Hats" sign. Plus, I can't find a single post-1910 photo of the bleachers that doesn't include the buildings behind it).

Please note that my findings are not 100% conclusive just yet, but with a little more research and eximination of other photos, both with and without the bleachers, I believe my new theory can either be confirmed or refuted depending on the evidence presented.

Please don't scalp me for this and know that my only reason for continuing this quandry is because I love doing research, especially when it involves a mystery.

Question: Based on this new evidence, do you think your Ty Cobb photo is 1910 ~ 1911 ~ or 1912? For me it appears they removed the "Wayne Knit Hosiery" sign in 1910 and replaced with the "Young's Hats" sign in 1911 when they built the new bleachers. Thus, at this juncture I honestly believe your Ty Cobb photo was taken in 1910.

Sincerely,

BOB52

To assist those who are interested in pursuing this further, I believe the "Flickr/Library of Congress" photographs are one of the most reliable sources for establishing accurate dates related to Hilltop Park. No doubt there are a few questionable one's, but for the most part I believe they have been researched by experts and filed accordingly. You can even change the search results by adding words such as Highlanders ~ Baseball ~ 1910 ~ 1911 ~ 1912 ~ etc; in order to find additional photographs.

The main thing to remember is that the center field bleachers were first used in 1911. Look closely for the "Young's Hats" advertisment with the white words on the bottom of it. And should you happen to find another photo showing the "Wayne Knit Hosiery" sign, please share it with the rest of us.

The photo below is from the New York Times newspaper article dated April 30, 1911

Thanks a lot.

BOB52

Flickr Link: http://www.flickr.com/search/?w=all&...op+park&m=text

Please ignore this reply. I intended to post some painted images to help clairfy the wording on the bottom picture in my next to the last post, but I messed up on it. Please refer to the new insert instead. That's basically what I was hoping to achieve. The only thing missing from the insert is the word HOSIERY. But hopefully you get the general idea.

Thanks again.

Bob

Here's the picture I have been looking for! Look close at the bottom of the fence (just below his hands) where it says ...

MAKES THE HOME RUN RIGHT

Reminders:

(1) All of the 1912 photos show "Young's Hats" on this portion of the fence.
(2) The centerfield bleachers were built in 1911 and did not exist in 1910.

This photo is dated and was taken in ...

1911

BOB52

Here are the links where I found the photo ...

Link 1: http://www.flickr.com/photos/library...ss/2163531274/

Link 2: http://www.flickr.com/photos/library...th/2163531274/

Thanks again Bob. There are bids on the photo, so I don't think that I'll change the date. I guess Dressed to the Nines uniform database was incorrect in this instance. They do have a lot of great old uni info out there though.
Bob, you are a top-notch sleuth. Many thanks again my friend. :)
If there is anything I can help you out with someday, please do not hesitate to ask.

horzverti ~

Thank You!

I sure hope everyone can see the wording I referred to. If not, I will strike out and be booted out of the ballpark. All anyone has to do is save the photo to their photo files and then zoom and/or enhance the color like I do and the wording stands out clearly. I can't speak for everyone, but I can actually see it with the naked eye.

By the way, I placed a bid on your photo but was immediately out bid. So what's up with that? (Lol) ;) Just kidding ... I know how it works.

One thing I wondered about regarding the uniform database images, and other references like it, are the dark collars vs light collars. I think in your photo Cobb is actually sporting a dark collar, but that it is difficult to make out because it's buttoned-up around his neck.

Anyhoo ... All is well that ends well. And all I can think of to ask at the moment is, throw me another curve ball one of these days and let's see what happens. I'll bet you a root beer that I strike out next time.

Later alligator.

Bob

To top things off, I just gotta share this "painting" of Cobb sliding into third. I like it so much, I may even order a print someday. Absolutely incredible!

Last but not least ...

Detroit Tigers uniforms from database.

1st .... 1911 Dark Collar

2nd ... 1912 Light Collar

Note: I've seen numerous examples of dark collars that are "light" colored on the underside.

Detroit Tiger wearing 1911 uniform showing a dark collar with a light underside. (Just one example of many I've seen).

Link: http://www.flickr.com/photos/library...ss/2163861686/

Please don't think I spend 24/7 on this, I don't. But I do continue to look from time to time. And glad I did because these are the best Wayne / Wayne Kn I've found so far ~ 1911. And you won't need a magnifying glass this time.

BOB52

Link: http://www.flickr.com/photos/library...ss/2162688797/

horzverti ~

I just realized something that's going to put a slight twist on things. Hopefully I can present this coherently enough so you won't think I'm losing my marbles. But as it turns out, the "Wayne Knit Hosiery" sign was displayed for two seasons - 1910 and 1911. Which means your Ty Cobb photo could have been taken during either one of those two years. But just which year I'm not sure yet and am currently looking for clues to determine that. The following will best illustrate how I came to this conclusion ...

Photos:

1st 1911 ... Wayne Knit sign showing bleachers and "White Label" sign to the left.

2nd 1911 ... From New York Times dated April 30, 1911. Impossible to make out the Wayne Knit sign, but I am able to see the "White Lable" sign to the left. Shows bleachers.

3rd 1911 ... Makes The Home Run Right. Shows bleachers and "White Label" sign to the left.

4th 1910 ... No bleachers. Shows "White Label" sign to the right.

In conclusion ... It appears the fences were either re-painted or sections moved as needed to accomodate the new bleachers that were first used during the 1911 season. (The large "Bull Durham" sign was moved from time to time as well).

Unfortunately your photo doesn't show what was to the left or right of it so it may be difficult if not impossible to determine which of the two years it is from. However, I will continue to study all of this for clues and hopefully be able to narrow it down eventually. If anyone else sees a clue like camera angle or something like that, please let us know.

This may seem like a lot to do about nothing, but, as I said earlier, I'm having fun with it. (I just hope I've got all of my ducks ... er, I mean "photos" in a row here).

Thanks.

BOB52

Clue ...

The "Bull Durham" sign is positioned in center field in 1909. But is positioned in right field in 1911 and 1912. Thus, if the "Bull Durham" sign is not shown in the (last) 1910 photo above, which also does not show the bleachers, then my assumption at this juncture is that the Ty Cobb photo was taken in 1910. If this doesn't make the least bit of sense to anyone, then maybe I have lost my marbles. Or maybe I'm just full of "bull."

Hello Bob,

I added a revision to my auction to let potential buyers know that this photo is from 1910. I also added a little thank you to you for all of your research. I think a second job in Cooperstown may be in your future. :)

Curt

Curt ~

Wow! Thank you. You just made my day. I don't know about getting a job with Copperstown, but I do feel like a celebrity just to be mentioned in your auction, which is at a whopping $100.00 now ~ congratulations ~ I'm sure it will go even higher.

By the way, does this mean I get a percentage of the proceeds? I have devoted about 12 hours to this, and at $20.00 per hour it comes to ... well, I'm not sure exactly how much, but it's a "lot." (Just kidding, of course, but I couldn't help myself). ;)

How much is a Ty Cobb photo like yours worth, anyway?

Good luck with the auction ... I am following it with renewed interest.

Thanks again.

Bob

Bob, you did a heckuva lot of research on this Cobb photo and you are to be commended...I take back my (somewhat rude) comments in your other thread about your town team photo...if anyone is going to identify that town it might just be you. :)

sks ~

Thanks a lot, seriously, but there's no need to take back anything. In fact, you came up with basically the same thing the Hall of Fame did, 1900 to 1910, which is what I call circa 1905. As for finding the right grain elevator, the odds of that are a million-to-one. I have already examined at least 500, with no possible leads in sight. But I aint givin' up just yet. I might get lucky.

Bob

PS ~ For those who are wondering what we're talking about, here's the link to that "other" thread.

Link: http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=151286

Well, I take them back anyway...I didn't know I was dealing with someone as determined as you are. Good luck in your quest. :)

horzverti ~

Congratulations on the sale of you Ty Cobb photo. I'm not sure what the true value of something like that is, but $149.00 sounds good to me.

Thanks again for sharing and allowing us to be a part of it.

Bob