Not EVER placing a ceiling bid is the same to me as saying you mind/care if you get shilled.

Ahhhhh... Now we may be on to something. I have never left a ceiling bid, not because I am worried about shilling, but because I am worried about other bidders. This is, of course, why "sniping" on ebay is so vital. If you place a "ceiling bid" on ebay you can only pay more for an item than if you had placed a "snipe" instead.

If I left a ceiling bid, and the auction house knew my ceiling bid, and bid right up to it, that is not a "hidden reserve," in my opinion. That is a lot more unfair than the auction house placing a hidden bid on its own behalf without knowing the top of the extant bidding market.

Perhaps I do not mind "shilling" because I never disclose my "ceiling" to the house.

Yes -- I see that point. I think the reason I don't care if I get shilled is that I keep myself out of shill situations. I bid incrementally.

Auction houses are not allowed to place bids whether they know the ceiling or not. If there is a reserve, they must state so in the lot description.

And I know the rules are different for a live auction, such as Sotheby's or Christie's. When you bid there, and the auctioneer calls out the bids, you have absolutely no idea what is going on- you don't know if they are real or just the house bidding up to the reserve.

I know those rules, too. But I think there is a BIG difference in practice between whether they know the ceiling or not.

edited: pulling out, as this thread has gone to shlt.

The auction house fraudsters are reading this thread and laughing at some of the idiotic comments here. For real.

They don't have time to read this thread. They're too busy shilling BINs on eBay.

Paul, being smugly ignorant is nothing to be proud of.

Let me explain to you how someone like you gets defrauded by certain auction houses. You don't put ceiling bids in and assume you're not being shilled -- when in fact, the auction house employees/principals know that you collect signed prewar cards. And they know your bidding history from prior auctions and have a fair idea how much you'll be willing to spend on a card you want. They see your bids in on some of the cards you collect. They know (or believe they know) what they think the card is worth -- or what they want it to sell for. So they put a bid in above your bid. They assume you'll top it -- and you will because you want the card. They then top you -- and you may or may not top their shill bid. At the end of the night, they sometimes get stuck with cards (and often times will go to the underbidder and offer the card) but usually they don't. You pull out a cigar and pour yourself a cognac, thinking you won the card and were smart about not getting shilled. Guess again.

Not to be completely OT, but I was extremely disappointed when my $1,200 snipe was outmatched. I hate it when people find all my bargains!!!

I agree with you Peter that shilling is a fact of life. I also agree that there are far worse problems in the hobby, namely altered cards and fake memorabilia. What amazes me is how many collectors I've talked to over the past 4 years openly accept that 15% to 20% of their collection may be altered or fake yet some of these guys continue to spend six figures annually on cards and memorabilia. To me it almost borders on a type of mental illness like you see on Hoarders on A&E - they just can't help themselves and live these destructive lifestyles.

To some degree, the mind-set is one and the same. You don't want to admit (or find out) that you got shilled and overpaid, and you certainly don't want to admit (or find out) that the card you overpaid for was altered.

It also depends on what you collect. I understand I may have a card or two that has an alteration. I happen to know a few people in the hobby and my sources tell me that the lower grade cards are less likely to be altered. I think if you know what you are doing and don't collect the high grade stuff, you are far less likely to have issues. I have not worried, over any period of time (of course individually every now and then I worry a bit) about cards in my collection with respect to alterations. I sleep well at night knowing almost all of my pr-ex cards are fine. As for shilling, unfortunately before about 5 yrs ago I think I was probably shilled a fair amount....since then probably not too much. I am sure I could be wrong but my "shit to equity" ratio in the hobby is still way up on the equity side. I still enjoy it immensely. If you don't enjoy the hobby or worry all of the time I would recommend doing something else.

Exactly, and that's partly why my cards are in this category...

Actually, what happened last time I bid in an auction for a signed card was a little different. I was bidding on this sweet signed Larry Doyle T206. When the bidding reached $200, there was a knock at my door. There were two men in dark suits and sunglasses there. Before I knew it, they had me pinned down on the floor, and they injected me with a powerful sedative. They propped me up at my computer, and started placing bids on all sorts of things I would never bid on -- 1957 Topps partial sets; 1970s Kelloggs issues; Drake's Cakes unopened boxes of Ring Dings with Mattingly and McGwire on the back. It was terrifying. By the time they left, I had fortunately been outbid on everything except the Doyle, which I won for $200. I pulled out a cigar and craved a sniff of cognac. But do you think I'd bid in that auction again? Guess again.

Fortunately we have you to save us from the dreaded auction house defrauders, who torment us when we win auctions for prices we are happy to pay. But who will defend us from the Men In Black when they knock on the door? Who will make us feel safe in our homes again?

Paul, you're allegedly a lawyer aren't you? That means you allegedly understand the law, right? Why so happy to be a fraud victim? Think of all that you could do with that extra money you're losing. You could pay for CLE classes.

You're like the vegetarian who asks me, "Why do you enjoy eating dead flesh?"

Fraud has many flavors. Some of them taste good with a good cognac and a cigar.

Shill bidding that resembles a hidden reserve is not something I choose to care about.

I really don't think if we stopped all the shilling in the world that the prices of cards would go down. If anything, they would be less available because sellers would be less inclined to consign their items.

Fortunately I don't have to pay for CLE, so no worries, I will still keep my license to practice the law in the same great state of New York that you practice in. But, if I ever get arrested for fraud, I'll be sure and look you up to defend me against an overreaching government.

No offense, I've seen your collection -- you can't afford me.

There are only two ways that I know of to control shill bidding, and I don't see either as likely to happen: people stop bidding in auctions suspected of shill bidding; or a governmental enforcement action.

Believe me, one indictment won't stop it either. There needs to be a belief by auction house principals that there will be ramifications for their actions, not just a rare bit of enforcement of the law.

"I really don't think if we stopped all the shilling in the world that the prices of cards would go down. If anything, they would be less available because sellers would be less inclined to consign their items."

Really? I think prices would decrease fairly quickly. How much? I don't know but I think they WOULD go down.

I mean, there are some sellers out there who are probably into cards because they CAN shill their own auctions. Take that extra profit away and it isn't going to be worth their time to stay in that section of business. They will just move on to another scam.

Also, if cards are being shilled on eBay and the large auction houses and those prices are being picked up and used for things like VCP lists, what do you think would happen if all of a sudden the shill bids were NOT being placed and cards were selling for what they would without a shill? What if a $100 dollar shill bid card were actually only worth $75 dollars without the shill?

Nope, take shilling out and there would be fewer sellers, more cards on the market and more reasonable prices....

David

Oh snap! Not only does my collection suck, but I'm poor too. Your critical argument tactics are amazing. I can see why you charge so much.

Fewer sellers means fewer cards on the market, not more. We see this phenomenon on ebay -- when prices go down, we have many fewer auctions and much more high BINs.

Yes, eliminating price fixing and overcharging has always led to....higher prices? Great critical thinking. And you wonder why you're poor?

For commodities, sure, you are right. But I am sure there are certain consignors who, absent assurances by certain auction houses that they will realize a certain minimum by hook or by crook (pun sorta intended), wouldn't consign in the first place.

Not just commodities. When price fixing was eliminated in the art house auction world prices came down -- and people still consigned.

What I think you're trying to say is that the reason auction houses engage in fraud is that they need to get the consignments -- and if one guy is committing fraud then the next guy must as well in order to realize the same prices in his auction -- in order to continue getting consignments. All that is well and true but it doesn't excuse fraud, it just means that unless and until everyone stops cheating many others will feel the need to cheat too. Doesn't make it right and the last thing we should be doing on this thread is arguing for fraud to continue being a known and forgiven part of our hobby. There's just no good reason to ignore the fraud.

What people don't realize too, is good luck in selling your fraudulently inflated cards. We all 'think' we know what the cards are worth but our thinking is largely based on past recorded sales -- which are also affected by fraudulent selling practices. Ever wonder why when you sell a card on ebay that you bought at an auction it doesn't do as well?

There could be several reasons n addition to fraud that cards don't do as well on ebay. One, the seller is no longer a buyer, so the demand is less, particularly on non-commodity cards. Two, the bid levels in auction houses tend to result in higher prices. Three, people tend to be less rational in auctions than they do on ebay, for reasons I have never quite understood.

I agree completely. And sellers or consignors can shill on ebay as well. But I think generally cards bought at auction houses don't tend to do as well on resale for reasons which include lack of fraud this time around. It's a fact that auction houses have pumped up sales' prices due to fraud. It's also a fact that upon resale those same cards -- when not helped by fraud of the auction house -- will result in lower prices.

My point was that if you eliminate shill bidding you would then see price fixing and overcharging as a result. How would you recommend we get rid of all the BINs on ebay and get back to a world where baseball card sellers felt comfortable letting the chips fall where they may on price at auction?

Also what is your secret to being rich and having a collection so good that you would say someone else's collection sucks?

My secret is I don't spend hours twisting myself into a pretzel trying to convince myself and others that fraud in our hobby is a non-issue. Actually, now you're claiming that shill bidding is good for our hobby. Good logic.

Nope. just saying you shouldn't expect lower prices and more cards if you eliminate the fraud.

And that's based on pure guesswork, not facts. If you simply removed the shill bidding beneath ceiling bids in auction house auctions the final hammer prices would have been lower on hundreds of cards over the years.

Hey Leon,

I am a little late with my 2 cents but I thought of you recently when I got several lower grade items from an auction house who will remain nameless. 3 cards were graded (2 SGC and 1 PSA) and virtually as low a grade as you can get and all 3 cards were heavily worked. Also the ungraded material I got (about 40 cards) had also been worked. Those 40 cards ranged in value of $40 to $400. And while I would not base this experience on all lower grade material which is sold, I have come to expect that if the item is worth enough money then there is a good chance someone will have made an effort to make it worth just a bit more.

Greg

Hi Greg
Of course, and that is why I said "less likely". I guess if some of my fr conditioned cards were worked up from poor, and they now look presentable, I can live with that. Heck, I have erased pencil marks, soaked and used a cue tip and water on many of my own cards. I am guilty of that. I am curious, if you care to disclose, what about them was worked on?

This just made me a bit nauseous.

Welcome to Darfur.

LOL. I hadn't been paying attention obviously -- the Orange Julius being sold in Gazan malls has not been properly chilled of late. The horror!

Hi Leon,

Creases were attempted to be removed, attempts made to remove ink, missing stock was attempted to be concealed, in a most devious manner. Very obvious to me and not the innocent stuff you describe above.

It has always been my experience that value, not condition, is the determining factor of whether a card might undergo some form of alteration. It is unusual for me to end up with 100% of a purchase having been messed with but I do see a significant amount of cards in all conditions all values that I feel have had work done. Most are graded too.

Someone in the last couple days made a very astute post. Not sure which thread but he wrote that the only thing grading has done for the hobby is permit card doctors to make more money.

Greg

As they say in ECON 101, "Assume a can opener."

Another meaningless comment. Are you capable of embarrassment?

The point is there will never be a world without shilling, so to explain what the world would look like in such an alternate universe will always be "pure guesswork, not fact." All economic theory is subject to various "assumptions" -- even can openers. If you haven't heard the joke, no matter. I just explained the premise.

Maybe if I was always charged with only making a jury of my peers have a reasonable doubt, i would reduce my arguments like you do. Let's sum up the bidding -- my collection sucks, I am poor. Shilling is fraud, and fraud is bad. All further debate is wrong and makes me an embarassment.

You do great work convincing people who already agree with you. The people who disagree with you aren't worth your very expensive time.

I'm not sure why you think it's interesting being a contrarian with no intelligent input -- just bizarre commentary and claims that fraud in our hobby is not a big deal, that you are above such meaningless matters like fraud because of your brilliant bidding strategies. And then you put on your tattered smoking jacket and pat yourself on the back even though everyone is laughing at you.

I won't address your comments about my career or skills because as we both know if I objectively compared my accomplishments to yours you'd come out looking as foolish as a guy who thinks that prices of cards would go up if shill bidding was eliminated.

Do you know how hard it is to argue with you without poking fun at all of the news articles about you? I mean, I'm really trying not to reference your wikipedia page.

It's a wikipedia page which has been edited about 1000000 times by every sort of maniac in the world -- like you. And yet you'd 'reference' it? Really?

Do you know how easy it is to argue with a nonentity like yourself? I mean, really?

You remind me of Bruce. But I appreciate that you haven't started with the insulting emails.

In a weird sort of way, I respect you (and myself) too much to go much further into the personal attacks. I have some really funny ones, too. But I'll take the high road.

Perhaps we fight because I remain as anonymous as possible on here. It gives you license to attack my wealth, card collection and intelligence.

I am just going to agree to disagree about the whole shilling thing. Keep fighting the good fight. I hope you make the world a better place for me to collect in, even if I come across as totally unappreciative.

Goodnight Jeff!

Xoxo Paul

And you remind me of Peter Chao. Except you're not Asian. And I've got some funny comments about you too -- just let me know when you want me to state them publicly.

Finally, I don't need any thanks from you nor do I deserve them. You happily claim to be isolated and selfish in your collecting and that's fine with me, nothing wrong with that. But when you publicly claim that shill bidding is not an issue to be concerned about and actually helps keep prices down and cards plentiful -- well, that's where I'm going to respond. Every person on this board has been a fraud victim one way or another through this hobby -- even you. To simply dismiss it as a cost of doing business is to simply be weak and a willing victim. That's one of the differences between me and you.

Peter Chao was unique, I don't see the comparison. :)

As far as shill bidding goes, who here is willing to take a stand and not bid with houses or ebay sellers we suspect are guilty, when they have a card we want? And if we are not willing to do that, why rant and rave?

Peter, that's not the point being discussed nor is it the sole duty of the victim to protect himself from fraud. But at the very least we should be able to identify fraud for what it is. Otherwise, what's the point in combating fraud if collectors actually think fraud helps them get the cards they want?

It does not excuse fraud, I agree, but at some point willing victims are complicit. Can one throw himself under a train and then fault the driver for not stopping?

I don't think there are any proven auction houses that are shillers, just very strong suspects. If auction house X publicly said, "we shill and if you don't like it, don't bid w/ us," I'd bet a whole lot of buyers would boycott that auction house.

There's no question that shilling hurts buyers. It's amazing that intelligent people on the board don't care. In a way, I can see where these people are coming from. For example, there is a card X that someone wants, and the VCP for this card is $100. The buyer sets his snipe for $95. The seller shills the card to $93, and the buyer wins. Therefore, the buyer is thinking, not only did I buy the card for less than I valued it for, I bought it for less than VCP. I got a great deal, who cares if the card was shilled. However, if the card were not shilled, the buyer may have bought the card for $80. Therefore, the "VCP" for this card has been set to an artificially high level even w/ this sale of this card. If the buyer tries to sell this card at a later time, and does it through an honest auction, he may not get his $93 back. he may only get $80 this time, and naively think, "well, I only buy cards as a hobby and not an investment anyway, and I had $13 of fun when I owned the card, so who cares." And I believe that this is what Jeff means when he says that the shillers laugh their way to the bank when they hear this.

Gary - it depends on what you define as an auction house being a shiller. Several auction houses openly admit to bidding on their lots using a house account in a way that appears to be a legitimate external bidder.