Maybe after deception became part of the hobby?

+1

That is just it. Donovan has not openly deceived anyone. He has been completely open and honest. A deceptive person would have carried on with the sale. You take his lack of posting as deception and tell him he must "prove his innocence" What?! Give me a break. Like most of us the guy has a job, he doesnt have time to ask how high when you say jump. It's his cut, if he wants to burn it, frame it, make an airplane out of it, roll it into a cigar and smoke it, then that is his business. You want to hold your breath and stomp your feet because he wont send it to someone that he doesnt know and let alone know their motives. You poll was right, way to go, high five each other, the auto is a fake. Let it go. You guys can have your autos, this is too sad for me.

So you think that he "found" this cut among a group of Goudey cards at an estate sale? That the amazing forger just dropped it in there? That there is the impression of a pen on the back of the autographed paper?
I am not sure what the answer is to these questions. I am trying to find out what the answers are. I am trying to find out if deception is involved. It can all be easily cleared up by Don. I realize if he does not want to do it, that is his right, but we then have the right to think what we want to think.

It is obvious to most that he is not being forthright about the autograph.

He wouldn't be defensive about it and fight tooth and nail if he was a victim and had the opportunity to have it checked out for free by one of the hobby's long time respected authenticators in Mr. Simon.

He had no problem sending it through the mail to psa, the same company that made the wrong call initially about the autograph, but won't send it for a second opinion to someone who didn't get it wrong?

No one is saying he can't do with it what he wants. Obviously he can.

What we are questioning is his motives for hiding it from the hobby and being so quick to destroy something that you can't get back once it's gone that could help the hobby in the autograph forgery education department.

Let's learn from it. let's find out if it is really a hand drawn forgery, or if it is a printed scan. PSA has a vested interest in it being one way or the other. An authenticator like Richard does not have any skin in the game. We simply don't believe PSA, and we have a hard time believing Donavon's motivation for wanting to burn it.

He's not caught behind enemy lines in WWII with secret codes and needs to eat them. To say that the autograph could get lost in the mail or that someone might pass away is ridiculous. We ain't buying it.

Smotan, I assume you believe PSA's assessment that someone can have the ability and the steadiest hand in the world to exactly copy another autograph with no discernable differences to the human eye? Is that what you believe? Because we don't believe it. And if it is a computer printed copy, then PSA shouldn't be able to get away with saying that they didn't get fooled by a printed copy and that is why Donavon seems to be complicit in the plan to make sure no separate third party can verify the computer printed autograph.

I believe one fact in the autograph industry. Every single assessment of an unwitnessed autograph is an opinion.

You are right, but I would like to render my opinion on this widely discussed item and I am not being allowed to.
Yes, I know Smo,,, it is his cut and he can do with it what he wants. But the people who have expressed an opinion here, yourself excepted, seem to think that I should be allowed to see it.
So far the only opinion we have here is one that has a decided self interest and though my opinion about that particular entity is known here, I feel that most people here would trust my opinion if I were allowed to get my hands on that cut autograph.
I promise I won't die or allow it to be stolen when it is in my hands :D.

Let me tell you something, the fact that an autograph has an in person, witnessed COA does not necessarily mean anything either.

Not what I said...but get your point. So to slim down my point.

"Every assessment of an autograph is an opinion"

I was referring to in person COA's issued by a company where the autograph was not really witnessed.

but psa's opinion is ludicrous, no one can freehand an exact copy of an autograph like that, can't happen, not possible, show me how to do it.

it could be their opinion that a dog did it, but not all opinions are credible or even possible. The autographs aren't just close, they are exact.

You still haven't told me if you believe psa's opinion. do you?

As much as I believe your opinion. I showed the auto to my dog, he wagged his tail. I believe his opinion too.

It can be scientifically proven that it is a printed copy, if that interests you. not everything is just an opinion. if the earth is round is just an opinion for you, then there is no point in converting those who don't want to know.

You didn't offer your beliefs in the company's opinion, which tells me you don't really believe it is a freehand forger's copy like psa evidently said but you are one of the defenders who run interference and want it swept under the rug. That's what we fight in this hobby. trying to clean it up is a herculean task when there are those who don't want it to be cleaned up and just want the status quo to continue.

They don't want any doubt that a printed copy can get by them, because then ANY autograph they have certed that matches exemplars and is slabbed might be called into question. There are thousands upon thousands of them out there.

Collectors know that a forgery slips by sometimes, maybe more often than the company lets on, and the company can live with that, but if collectors realize that the printed copies are getting through, then any autograph they have in a slab that they didn't see signed in person is a potential big question mark.

My dog sniffed it and gave the verdict: Not food. Can't be more scientific than that.

My dog sniffs his butt, which smells like PSA's opinion in this matter.

+1,,, good one :D.

True/Doesnt Interest me/Earth is round

So if Im not with you then Im against you?

Next you are going to tell me that numerical grades on PSA cards can be called into question too?!

You said this, not PSA. You want to prove PSA is incompetent. You need to see the auto in person to prove this. Donovan doesnt want give you his personal property. Donovan is now part of PSA in your eyes. You want to prove them incompetent. Ahhh, the circle of life.

In my opinion, it's Donovan's right to keep it. Why? Because it's his.

You are right David, it is his and he can keep it or go further with it.
However I think people on this board will judge the autograph and his statements by his action or inaction. If he does not care, that is his perogative.
Most have already judged the autograph, if he wants to try to change some minds he can go further. If he does not want to change people's minds than he can do nothing and stand by all his prior statements and people will judge accordingly.

Donavon,

do you have the identical williams sigs you promised a month ago?


i think this whole deal is a big stonewall. can you show the cobb cut with a current newspaper so we know you got it back as you claim?

certainly psa has sent it back to you by now?

I am sure Donavon is a busy man but you would think that by now he mght have taken a moment to respond further to this thread.
I guess he has no adequate response about the Ty Cobb cut and the mystery story of the amazing forger will have no further explanation.
Donavon if you have been too busy to respond here,we understand. But we are hopeful that a response will be forthcoming at some time in the near future.
In the meantime I am glad I don't own an autograph that resides in a plastic tomb.

Kindly move this thread to the new forum. That is why it was created.

rotten
 

Amen to that!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!;)

Donavon will not do anything. he promises but then renegs. it was all in the can from the beginning.

Still looking forward to those ted williams sigs 5 weeks after he promised them. He claims he is busy and that is suppose to be an excuse until the end of time.

If I knew how to do it and was authorized,I would be happy to do it.
I suggest you send a PM to a mod or to Leon.

It is my opinion that the cut was never sent back to PSA/DNA to begin with. I think the whole story was concocted. If it were true, they would have already removed the cert from their database by now.

A few years ago, the card pictured below was listed on eBay and was the topic of a thread on the PSA boards. Yes, PSA really graded that card a 10. Of course all the PSA apologists wanted to make excuses such as it was a mechanical error or the card was switched out, blah, blah, blah. PSA contacted the dealer and wanted the card back. If I remember correctly, PSA and the dealer couldn't agree on terms and the seller refused to give it back. So, PSA simply removed the card from their database - kind of like sweeping the problem under the rug. I don't know where the card is today or if PSA ever obtained possession of it, but my point is that PSA pulled the cert immediately because of the attention it drew. Likewise, they would have done the same thing in the case with the Cobb cut. I just don't believe the whole story.

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x...rew_PSA-10.jpg

Wow! Pretty amazing that it is still in the database of PSA.
I had not thought to check that out but that is eye opening.
What to think of Donavon now?

Anyone contact PSA and ask them if they received it or not. If he did never send it in, watch it be sold then.

I doubt if PSA would reveal that kind of information to a stranger on the telephone.
This whole thing is now fishier than ever.
We have our own little Cobb cut-gate here.
The aftermath always seems to be worse than the actual event.

While I believe that Richard and Travis (neither of whom I know) have the better side of this argument, the lesson for me is to avoid autographs altogether.

When an expert like David can be deceived by a Yankee ball with numerous (apparently) forged autographs, and a reputable (albeit imperfect) grading company can be deceived by a photocopy, it is time for mere mortals like myself to find another hobby.

Mark - I suggest you look at the "good news" autograph thread. That is why we autograph collectors collect.
It is very easy to amass a good collection, as I have said many times before.
Stay with the good dealers and chances are you can amass a quality collection with a very good chance of everything you own being authentic.

+1....I'll stick to tickets, publications, and cards