You're welcome, Scott. The stuff was easy to find.

It indeed can, and does happen after the fact. The buyer is releived of all responsibility to pay (and the seller cannot re-list the item).

It's interesting that their Ebay seller account doesn't include those Ty Cobb and Satchel Paige cut autographs. If they are so confident that their vintage autographs are authentic, then why don't they list them under their Ebay account?

One of the dumbest things i have ever heard.

It's not gropo the robot, it's luis firpo. you are practicing elitism.

Put the exact quotes where people defend morales. show me. Don't just talk in generalities.

you are right, there is little comparison to the two issues. what the huge comapnies are doing will drag down the hobby. Morales is a known quantity.
How many Morales autos do you own, how many psa or jsa? answer it.

'Tighten it up'. Really? That's all they need to do, tighten it up a bit?

Tighten up the lug nuts? The wheel fell off 9 miles ago and we have been sparking on the rims since then gouging up the asphalt. But hey, they are doing great, right? Just tighten it up a bit. How about a total revamp from the top down?

You really don't know what's going on do you? You can't see past Morales. As long as there is Morales, other companies can't anything wrong? Where do I defend Morales? go ahead and show me.

Why are you turning my post above into a mueller and koschal discussion? it was my post about these companies and Morales, not theirs. All the sudden mueller and koschal come up. what's that have to do with anything? I don't speak on ANL's behalf, not here or when i post on ANL. It's a place to go and blog. There is no ANL view on things. It's a blog, just like there is no net54 view on things. I see you have posted on ANL. Are you a skirt boy too? Or do you have your own independent views and voice. Just like me, just like Mueller, just like Koschal, just like anybody. Show me a specific quote. You don't have one.

Did you see my other thread about a Tom Sayers boxing autograph with LOA's written up then pulled by these companies because I guess you need exemplars to issue an LOA?

10 dollar mantle photos are a problem but not the big fish. Why do you need judgments from other people on morales? Everybody knows Morales and his work. Morales is used as a smokescreen to take the heat off of other entities.

Criticism for abc, xyz companies. "MORALES"!!!! Total up all questionable items you have seen from morales and put a $ amount on them. then do the same with abc, xyz.
Compare the two numbers, not even close.

gropo the robot (elitism) had nearly a 400 dollar bid. It didn't have a morales cert.

Maybe fudd would actually like to read autographalert instead of just bashing it.

http://www.autographalert.com/2007-1-6.html

looks like to me he takes a certain fde to task. About 80 percent down the page, titled 'following the authenticators".

how is that being a skirt boy, not commenting on this fde as you put it, when he clearly did.

apology accepted.

-

Leaving the other points aside, this point
Is unfairly made. The comments you refer to were made well before the thread about the Sayers was started.


I was also somewhat amused by the link. The article about the churchill "rubber stamp" pictures a metal and wood typography block. NO rubber involved. (And no correction/addendum since 2007! That says a lot about attention the to detail of a whole lot of people:()

If they're going to - and it appears rightly so in many cases- take people to task for issuing LOAs while making very basic errors........You know, the whole glass houses thing.

Steve B

Steve - granted the term rubber stamp is an error, but the metal and wood block had the same purpose as a rubber stamp and I would not really take him to task for that misuse of the words rubber stamp. We all understand what he meant.

Did someone say "rubber stamped"?
 

Sorry for hijacking this thread, but I have to share this one with you all.
As I've mentioned previously, one of the things I collect is the signatures of all no-hit pitchers.

A few months ago I purchased this supposedly signed 3 x 5 index card of Dwight "Doc" Gooden with a JSA sticker. The eBay scan was somewhat poor quality. When I received it in the mail I had to laugh as there is no question that this is a Gooden rubber stamped 3 x 5 from the mid 1980's.

How in the world did this ever get passed by JSA? :eek: LOL :rolleyes:

Autograph scandals. How odd.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-0d1DmPlgHC...-small-c78.jpg

I agree Richard. I was maybe a bit over the top on that one. The block was likely used to print some of the various "signed" form letters Churchill used.

My poorly made point was that everyone makes mistakes, sometimes they're minor, sometimes they're more obvious to someone more familiar with an object. I do think that how those mistakes are handled matters, and there's an appearance of unwillingness to correct a minor technical issue. (My wife and I "discuss" this somewhat regularly, if someone doesn't get the easy stuff right I have little faith in them getting the big stuff right.)

Sadly I have the feeling that the underlying argument is one of how to best correct problems. One group believes that the authentication industry as a whole is fatally flawed and that going after the biggest names is the best way to force some adjustments. The other side thinks the overall industry is needed and workable, and that the most productive path is eliminating those who are either totally incompetent or deliberately authenticating fakes.
I think both have their place.

I'd like to see LOAs changed to be more like the certs given for stamps. For those, you tell them what you believe the stamp is and the certs gives the correct identification, with a statement like "it is genuine, with a sealed tear 1mm from the left corner" or " it is genuine, reperforated on the right side" and less commonly, "we render no opinion" (For the card Scott shows it would call it a genuine rubber stamp of Goodens signature)
The stamp certs of course have their own problems and scandals, as well as incompetent expertisers.

I do have a question about how the larger companies work. Does the signer of the LOA actually do all the authenticating for a company like PSA/DNA? Or is it more like cards where there are multiple people working under supervision?

Steve B

Steve - I believe that no general public customer actually knows who authenticates anything that is submitted to PSA.
You can make educated guesses based on the item itself, but there are only multiple facsimile signatures at the bottom of their COA, and it is anyone's guess who actually examined the item.

Out of curiosity I clicked through to their "Certification and Authenticity" page, and aside from the many grammatical errors and laughable statements like "it can't be that lucrative of a business nowadays," I find it odd that in the 4 hours or so since the quote above was made, as of 5:28 PM CST, the percentages were changed in that paragraph to:

"These authenticators may only certify up to 20% of all high end items that are submitted to them by individuals. So in their mind, the other 80% are forgeries."

Are they re-writing their in-house CoA rant in response to postings on this board? Or is the timing of that re-write merely a coincidence? Makes me wonder what else changed in the meantime, but since that was the only paragraph quoted, I'll never know.

These people at Colossal are very aware of this board.
After they removed their pictures from their last auction I wrote to them, under a pseudonym, requesting pictures of a few lots.
After figuring out that it was me, one of their principals started writing to me.
Along with other statements he has mentioned in his correspondence that he "gets a kick out of my blogger friends and finds them entertaining."
I guess that means you guys :):).
He also said that putting photos of his items on the internet drew too much negative attention.
Wonder what he meant by that?

It was very soon after this thread started that the photos started coming down. Seems it was a response to some of the obvious criticism that was being lobbed.

In the end, if you're going to pay 150 bucks for a Hughie Jennings autograph, why would you need a photo before doing so?

When will some people learn that posting on a message board is not the same as "blogging"?!?!? http://www.comiccollecting.org/forum...con_e_argh.gif Some knuckleheads on another dubious site consistently refer to message board participants as "bloggers" as well. http://www.comiccollecting.org/forum...cratchchin.gif

With a defense like that, who needs a prosecution? :D

Hey Poster Boys,,, get a real job.
 

This is now on the Colossal website:

"Many bloggers believe most everything is a forgery, and everyone is a forger or conspirator unless proven otherwise. Many of these same people, whom are collectors and sellers themselves, also believe everything they have is 100% authentic and everything you have is not. Some are independant authenticators who think they know everything and may have worked for some of these authentication companies or auction houses in the past. They consider themselves autograph experts and continuously disperage authenticators, sellers, and collectors alike. These bloggers are self proclaimed experts who regularly post on forums because they have nothing better to do. They don't have a real job.

But excuuse me, they don't like the term "Bloggers", they like to be called "Posters"....because they're so special. We'll just call them 'Poster Boys" for lack of a better term. These poster boys will try to do anything in their power to stir up controversy and discredit anyone who doesn't agree with there narrow minded way of thinking. On their forums, they will try to discredit, and refute everything written on this web page. Their attitude also helps perpetuate the status of the most well known authenticators, and the notion that if these well known authenticators authenticate anything it's got to be real, whether it is or not. It's like wrestling with an 800 pound gorilla, you can't win. So if you choose to use a 3rd party authenticator, consider their reputation, your options, and choose wisely."

If "Colossal Auctions" are so confident that their vintage cut autographs are authentic, then why aren't they listing them under their Ebay account (Americard)?

What's the deal there, Colossal Auctions?

I'm confused.

These guys are thieves - they are making a living stealing from people. They have the absolute stupidest website on the planet, and the most ridiculous authentication policies. Their strategy is all designed for theft...period. Rather than trying to get them to prove they are legit (which is impossible), why don't you guys actually do something about them?

Seriously, you are all into collecting vintage autographs and I guess preserving the integrity of the autograph-collecting hobby - so go get him nailed. That's really the only solution to this.

Isn't there some procedure that leads to the authorities tossing them in jail?

If is funny to watch them scramble around, trying to cover all the bases so that no potential buyer will have any doubts or hesitations. In the long run this will only hurt their cause, though, as it will make potential buyers ask the question, "Who are these 'bloggers' and where do they discuss this stuff?" As these potential buyers are alerted to the fact that other experts do exist in the field, they will seek more knowledge and hopefully discover the truth about these crooks.

Of course, after reading this logic, they may remove those last couple paragraphs now... ;)

What would you propose that "we" do, Scott?

As poster boys, we're only interested in discrediting and blogging. We're not into really taking any real action. LOL ;) :rolleyes:

Or you could try 1-800-catch-them-now and file a report.

I have no idea - perhaps the answer is that there is nothing that can be done. If that's the case, then I'm really sorry for the autograph-collecting hobby.

But I do know that thieves HAVE been caught, and there must be a process that led to that occurring. Was it just accidental? Did someone who got ripped off get really pissed and grab hold like a pit bull until justice was served?

I don't see an issue with Colossal ripping off idiots - not being cold-hearted, but I don't trust autographs anyway, and buying from someone like Colossal is the stupidest of stupid ways to go about collecting. But to me the bigger issue is that these items will end up back in the market under a different name, and someone legit will put their stamp of approval on them (accidentally, of course). I know from reading this thread that that is a big worry of everyone. Can nothing be done to stop it?

I have to admit, his coining of the term 'poster boys' was pretty funny. He's kind of laughing at our inability to take any real action. I'd love to see someone here prove him wrong.

Can my poster be one of those ones with the velvety background full of swirly colors that glows if you've got a blacklight...... please?
:D

Steve B

FWIW, the man from Colossal told me they'd sell any consignments I have and I'd get 60% of the proceeds.

Also, most of these items are from Myron's collection (funny how nobody there knows his last name) and he's had much success selling in the past through, wait for it, Coach's Corner! (You can't make this stuff up!)

Ken
earlywynnfan5@hotmail.com

Myron Abrams?

They actually told you that their commission fee is 40%?? :eek::eek:
Wonder who Myron got his stuff from???
What could he have paid for it to sell it at such bargain prices?

I can't believe how often the info on this website changes. Here is a quote from their current home page:

If you have any high-end autographs you want to consign, they must have a COA from a reputable 3rd party authenticator such as PSA, JSA, ACE, AAU, etc.

If I recall, none of the lots in their last auction had any COAs at all.

What? No faith in their own COA and letters from forensic examiners?

Perhaps the constant website updating is not actually in response to this board. Rather it is damage control for the suckers who purchased their autographs, tried to list them on ebay only to have them removed, did a simple web search and found this thread, and now they want some answers from Rick.

The game used dealers that have gotten in hot water have been charged with mail fraud. Is Rick skirting this by doing live auctions? Feds can't get involved if it doesn't cross state lines, right?

The postal inspectors are the tough ones. I learned the other day that there's no statute of limitations on mail related crimes.

Steve B