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-   Net54baseball Sports (Primarily) Vintage Memorabilia Forum incl. Game Used (http://www.net54baseball.com/forumdisplay.php?f=5)
-   -   This sums it up about Jeter and 3000 (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=139229)

T206Collector 07-16-2011 09:42 AM
I get the growing frustration aspect, but I think it is goofy to get too upset by it. It is like complaining about $15 movie tickets and $8 popcorn at the theater. "When I was a kid, a nickel got me a trolley ride from Battery Park to the Polo Grounds, and I still had change for a hot dog."

This growing frustration began in 1869, folks, when the amateurs became professionals. It has only evolved over time. The perception that life was simpler when you could tip your cap to Babe Ruth on the street 70 years ago is just that, a perception. People hated Ruth for making more money than the President.

And Ruth didn't have 15 reporters in front of his clubhouse locker hours before and after every single game, trying to fill a 24-hour news cycle, the bloggosphere, Twitter, Facebook, YouTube, etc.

ChiefBenderForever 07-16-2011 10:09 AM
If you have a job and money in your pocket are you obligated to give every homeless person who asks you for spare change some money ? How do you know who really will spend it on food, or a bottle, rock, or isn't even homeless but makes more begging than working ? And how annoyed do you get with the constant bagering from them ?

RichardSimon 07-16-2011 11:04 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChiefBenderForever (Post 909299)
If you have a job and money in your pocket are you obligated to give every homeless person who asks you for spare change some money ? How do you know who really will spend it on food, or a bottle, rock, or isn't even homeless but makes more begging than working ? And how annoyed do you get with the constant bagering from them ?
There are homeless in Connecticut ?? :eek::eek::p:D:D

Exhibitman 07-16-2011 11:42 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChiefBenderForever (Post 909299)
If you have a job and money in your pocket are you obligated to give every homeless person who asks you for spare change some money ? How do you know who really will spend it on food, or a bottle, rock, or isn't even homeless but makes more begging than working ? And how annoyed do you get with the constant bagering from them ?
That's a different scenario and a red herring argument. Signing a name costs a celebrity nothing; handing my money to a stranger costs me the money. And I am not making millions on the good will of the general public. A celebrity doesn't owe me jack; but if he wants my continued patronage as a customer of his business and his sponsors he'd better not be a dick.

Exhibitman 07-16-2011 11:50 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by T206Collector (Post 909286)
I get the growing frustration aspect, but I think it is goofy to get too upset by it. It is like complaining about $15 movie tickets and $8 popcorn at the theater. "When I was a kid, a nickel got me a trolley ride from Battery Park to the Polo Grounds, and I still had change for a hot dog."

This growing frustration began in 1869, folks, when the amateurs became professionals. It has only evolved over time. The perception that life was simpler when you could tip your cap to Babe Ruth on the street 70 years ago is just that, a perception. People hated Ruth for making more money than the President.

And Ruth didn't have 15 reporters in front of his clubhouse locker hours before and after every single game, trying to fill a 24-hour news cycle, the bloggosphere, Twitter, Facebook, YouTube, etc.
I'm not upset by it; I simply refuse to spend my entertainment money that way. As for the reporters, boo hoo--imagine how it would be if no one gave a damn and no one wrote about them:

Publicity can be terrible. But only if you don't have any.
--Jane Russell

slidekellyslide 07-16-2011 12:38 PM
If Babe Ruth were born and playing in this era he would have a contract with Steiner too, and you wouldn't see him dropping signed baseballs out of hotel windows. So to compare him and his 1920-40s situation to Derek Jeter is not fair. If Derek Jeter played in the 1920-30s he probably would have signed for anyone and everyone for free too.

slidekellyslide 07-16-2011 12:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Zipper (Post 909121)
Sheesh... couldn't Price at least "play hard to get"?

I wonder if Branca was signing balls "I gave up The Shot" less than a week later?

;)
I wonder if Branca ever appeared at any card shows along with Bobby Thomson?

ChiefBenderForever 07-16-2011 01:23 PM
Richard so funny thanks for a good laugh, I think I did see a homeless guy one time or maybe he was from Vermont.
And Adam, not sure it is so different, if time is money, and the auto is worth something isn't it the same thing as someone asking you for money and not free on their part ? And although I do agree with you, what we think of 'them' is irrelavant and won't effect them one bit and they know it. As good as they seem to have it they also have lost any sort of privacy or freedom to enjoy the most basic of things and it has to get so old so fast I would think it gets to be a very lonely world for many of them. And when people like Mays and Bonds have a stigma of being such jerks in public I bet it keeps a lot of people at a distance as they are very careful to approach them. I guess in the end it's a thin red herring........

HRBAKER 07-16-2011 01:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by slidekellyslide (Post 909331)
I wonder if Branca ever appeared at any card shows along with Bobby Thomson?
Sure he did, quite a lot of them. And........he answered his mail requests for free for decades after his playing days.

Mr. Zipper 07-16-2011 02:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by slidekellyslide (Post 909331)
I wonder if Branca ever appeared at any card shows along with Bobby Thomson?
I'm sure this is a rhetorical question and you know the answer. :)

In my view, there is a big difference between signing DECADES later and signing less than a week later. Does Price need the money so badly that he must sign NOW? Where is the professional pride?

And by the way, I don't begrudge Ralph Branca one penny. I met him and Bobby many times and had them sign many items. It was always a pleasure.

slidekellyslide 07-16-2011 02:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by HRBAKER (Post 909343)
Sure he did, quite a lot of them. And........he answered his mail requests for free for decades after his playing days.
Yeah..I knew he did. My point is that he was making money off of giving up the shot just like Price appears to be making money the same way.

I'm actually surprised at the reaction to this whole deal as if it's surprising to anyone on this forum that ballplayers are making money any way they can. If there is a market for it there will be a product....Derek Jeter is popular and there is a market for anything associated with him and 3000 hits at the moment...nobody should be surprised that all parties to this event are cashing in as fast as they can...no one will care 3 or 4 weeks from now...and none of this stuff that they are selling will retain its value other than perhaps the ticket stubs to the game. The t-shirts and hats will all be able to be had for pennies on the dollar on ebay for years to come.

Mr. Zipper 07-16-2011 02:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by T206Collector (Post 909218)
I agree, to a degree. Jeter himself has stopped and signed for me for free at least three times that I can remember: while working out with Posada at the Indians old home on Winter Lakes, FL; while stretching before a game at the old stadium; and, while entering the press gate at the old stadium.
Your experience is better than mine. At the stadium and on the road over the years, he passed me over every time. (Yes, I was polite, not obnoxious, only had 1 item, etc etc.) In my experience, he'd sign for kids and women... passed by men.

I guess the men can afford the $599 so the hell with them. :eek:

:D

slidekellyslide 07-16-2011 02:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Zipper (Post 909345)
I'm sure this is a rhetorical question and you know the answer. :)

In my view, there is a big difference between signing DECADES later and signing less than a week later. Does Price need the money so badly that he must sign NOW? Where is the professional pride?

And by the way, I don't begrudge Ralph Branca one penny. I met him and Bobby many times and had them sign many items. It was always a pleasure.
When Branca gave up the shot there was no market for his autograph...it wasn't until the baseball card boom of the 80s forward that demand for that kind of stuff lit up. And really this is apples and oranges...the market is shrinking daily (hourly?) for David Price autographs tied to this event. 3000 hits is nice, but this ain't the "Shot heard round the world".

T206Collector 07-16-2011 02:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by HRBAKER (Post 909343)
Sure he did, quite a lot of them. And........he answered his mail requests for free for decades after his playing days.
...until there was a market for them.

Mr. Zipper 07-16-2011 06:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by T206Collector (Post 909364)
...until there was a market for them.
I sent Thomson and Branca cards over the years and they were always signed for no fee. I believe Branca still signs for free through the mail.

Matthew H 07-16-2011 08:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by T206Collector (Post 909196)
So what if they are? Are they idiots for collecting modern stuff, any more than we're idiots for collecting stuff of deadballers? Who knows what will sell in the future? And just keep in mind, that the guy who sold me his ticket, bought it for $100 two days ago, before they started going crazy on eBay. Now the kind of ticket I bought for $250 this morning is up over $300 tonight. That's a pretty good investment, if only in the short term.

You guys spend so much time talking about whether kids today are going to be tomorrow's collectors. DJ3K is the kind of modern event that grows the spirit of all of our collections. Don't ignore that because the marketing is better today, or because Jeter is a once in a lifetime, Mickey Mantle-esque sports icon.

If you really think the modern ballplayer has to stop and sign every piece of paper that is shoved in front of him on the street, or in a restaurant while he is eating with his family, then you understand little about the perils of modern celebrity.

Good points sir... I don't have anything against peddling crap memorabilia, it's a nice memento... Something to share with your kids and such, but you don't actually think that something mass produced as a collectible will ever be worth more then the purchase price right? They're making as many as they can possibly sell right now. Do you think more people will be interested in DJ3K as the years go by? My guess is the moments popularity has already peaked.

I don't have a problem with Jeter squeezing every penny he can from his fame. I also don't have a problem with him blowing people off in the street. When he let that kid give him the ball for free is the moment I decided he was a true a-hole. I'm still waiting for him to fix it.

David Atkatz 07-16-2011 09:27 PM
Keep waiting. He's not even aware there's a problem.

slidekellyslide 07-16-2011 10:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Atkatz (Post 909474)
Keep waiting. He's not even aware there's a problem.
There is no problem. The kid gave him the ball...he accepted the ball.

T206Collector 07-16-2011 11:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew H (Post 909466)
Good points sir... I don't have anything against peddling crap memorabilia, it's a nice memento... Something to share with your kids and such, but you don't actually think that something mass produced as a collectible will ever be worth more then the purchase price right? They're making as many as they can possibly sell right now. Do you think more people will be interested in DJ3K as the years go by? My guess is the moments popularity has already peaked..
We are in total agreement here. The night after McGwire hit number 62, I sold my entire McGwire collection for hundreds of dollars at the local card shop. I totally understand the phenomenon of peak popularity.

David Atkatz 07-16-2011 11:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by slidekellyslide (Post 909496)
There is no problem. The kid gave him the ball...he accepted the ball.
Hey, Dan. Remember when you were a kid, and you somehow got your friend to give you that toy of his that you wanted? And how happy you were when you brought it home? And then, how your mother made you give it back?

I do.

David Atkatz 07-16-2011 11:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by T206Collector (Post 909521)
We are in total agreement here. The night after McGwire hit number 62, I sold my entire McGwire collection for hundreds of dollars at the local card shop. I totally understand the phenomenon of peak popularity.
Wow! It's like tulipomania, all over again.

Gary Dunaier 07-17-2011 12:09 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Exhibitman (Post 909275)
I don't think it is wrong for Jeter (or anyone else) to charge for autographs at a show, through mail order, etc.--it is a service rendered and if it is overpriced or unwanted, don't buy it--but I do think it is wrong when the prevalent view among athletes becomes that an unpaid autograph is something to be frowned upon, wheither you call it a freebie, brand dilution, leakage, etc. It is called "public relations" and at the right time and place is part of being in the entertainment industry.

As a public person/celebrity who earns millions trading on the goodwill of the public as a product endorser, one of the things Jeter accepts as part of the deal is the duty [yes, it is a duty] to do right by the people who support him. I find it appalling when a ballplayer refuses to sign for a fan (unless the situation is very, very inappropriate, like in a bathroom), especially when the justification is that the fan might sell the item.

If an athlete makes millions playing baseball and endorsing products that he expects kids to purchase based on his endorsements, guess what, the athletes is a role model and with that privilege comes responsibility. One of the reasons I have gone from a rabid fan who had season tickets to a person who rarely watches the game and never attends is the attitude towards the fans exhibited by players and management.

Not wanting to be taken advantage of goes both ways.
I agree with you a million percent.

Vintagedegu 07-17-2011 03:42 AM
-

T206Collector 07-17-2011 07:02 AM
I understand your concerns, but to hate the game as a business today, when it has been a business since 1869, in my view, is an oversimplification. So much of your gut feeling on this was expressed by fans in 1869. But people continued to love the game, and support it as wholesome entertainment, when it has been a money-driven industry for nearly 150 years.

My appreciation for the history of the game accepts this as just another chapter. I may not agree to spend $600 on a Jeter ball, but I don't hate any of the participants... Neither the fans, the teams, the players, the sellers of memorabilia, etc.

Vintagedegu 07-17-2011 07:27 AM
-

ChiefBenderForever 07-17-2011 07:57 AM
The same principles can be applied to everything and yes it sucks, everything sucks. Exxon Mobile just made $48 billion in profits and yet I have been paying 4.00-4.50 a gallon for over 4 months and will probably get worse, why ? Because now they have to try to make $100 billion in profits. I guess the Walmart effect has completely spilled over to everything, even our beloved hobby. And when someone just dropped over 1k to see the game what is another $600 for a ball for Jr ?

Sadly most fans can barely afford to go to one game a year and have enough trouble paying the cable bill on time. And most people only go when they get tickets for free but many don't ever have that happen. But the players are still the best of the best, and hopefully the league and owners are keeping an eye on the NBA, where 80% of the teams have less than 50% of the seats filled everynight and can only blame themselves. Even the great Yankees had empty seats at the playoffs, that never happened at the House the Ruth built. Greed is good until you price everybody out and are left holding the bag of s*&t you filled.

Scott Garner 07-17-2011 09:13 AM
Bag of S*&t
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChiefBenderForever (Post 909570)
The same principles can be applied to everything and yes it sucks, everything sucks. Exxon Mobile just made $48 billion in profits and yet I have been paying 4.00-4.50 a gallon for over 4 months and will probably get worse, why ? Because now they have to try to make $100 billion in profits. I guess the Walmart effect has completely spilled over to everything, even our beloved hobby. And when someone just dropped over 1k to see the game what is another $600 for a ball for Jr ?

Sadly most fans can barely afford to go to one game a year and have enough trouble paying the cable bill on time. And most people only go when they get tickets for free but many don't ever have that happen. But the players are still the best of the best, and hopefully the league and owners are keeping an eye on the NBA, where 80% of the teams have less than 50% of the seats filled everynight and can only blame themselves. Even the great Yankees had empty seats at the playoffs, that never happened at the House the Ruth built. Greed is good until you price everybody out and are left holding the bag of s*&t you filled.
Good post- I agree!

Leon 07-17-2011 10:07 AM
me too
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vintagedegu (Post 909566)
I know what you mean, but the way I see it, business doesn't have to be cold, impersonal and soulless. The 'Pre-Steiner' era was like a mom-and-pop store to today's Walmart. It's the Babe hanging out signing autographs on the street versus being funneled like rats through a Tri-Star queue. I believe we're dealing with an objective, quantitative difference between now and 1869 or even 1989. It's a total rupture with the past. Not a relative situation where it's essentially the same, but developing naturally with the times.

I saw the tail end of the 'fun' days, and the players and collectibles weren't as snooty, overpriced and 'businesslike' as today. There were no $500 autograph tickets, even adjusted for inflation. People made their money (not as much though) without tearing out the soul of the game/hobby. A person who was angry over the rise of professional baseball would fall over dead if they saw this.

And believe me T, I don't want be argumentative or demean your views or love of the hobby. It's good that you still find enjoyment in these things, as people need an occasional refuge from all the crap in the world. Speaking for myself, though, I just don't care anymore. For the last 2-3 years, I've largely ignored current developments in baseball, instead devoting my time to the old guys.

+100...............I have felt this same way my whole adult life. I could care less about watching today's major league games for all of the reasons stated. I can't stand the whole thing...the players, the owners, the everything about today's Major Leagues.

On a related note I read today where the local Texas Rangers Double A team, the Frisco Roughriders, just went over the 5 million mark in attendance. They are the most watched double A team in "business" today. I do like their games and everything about them. The tickets are about $10, the hot dogs are about $3, sodas about $3 and the parking is Free. Add to that the players are nice and they look like they are having fun. I still love the game....just can't stand the Majors nor do I watch any Major League games. And I am sure everyone on the board already knows my feelings as I have usually been in the vast minority and fairly outspoken....which is ok too. To each their own. best regards

slidekellyslide 07-17-2011 12:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Atkatz (Post 909523)
Hey, Dan. Remember when you were a kid, and you somehow got your friend to give you that toy of his that you wanted? And how happy you were when you brought it home? And then, how your mother made you give it back?

I do.
A child caught Jeter's 3000th?

David Atkatz 07-17-2011 12:05 PM
Baseball brings out the child in all of us. (That's why we collect.)

slidekellyslide 07-17-2011 12:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leon (Post 909599)
+100...............I have felt this same way my whole adult life. I could care less about watching today's major league games for all of the reasons stated. I can't stand the whole thing...the players, the owners, the everything about today's Major Leagues.

On a related note I read today where the local Texas Rangers Double A team, the Frisco Roughriders, just went over the 5 million mark in attendance. They are the most watched double A team in "business" today. I do like their games and everything about them. The tickets are about $10, the hot dogs are about $3, sodas about $3 and the parking is Free. Add to that the players are nice and they look like they are having fun. I still love the game....just can't stand the Majors nor do I watch any Major League games. And I am sure everyone on the board already knows my feelings as I have usually been in the vast minority and fairly outspoken....which is ok too. To each their own. best regards
You can't beat minor league baseball...you just can't. I won free tickets to today's game on the comfort zone couch (A contest I sign up for every year)..however it is over 100f today with a heat index of 110 and that black vinyl couch in the sun just doesn't sound like it's worth it today. :)

mr2686 07-17-2011 12:08 PM
OMG!! Can you imagine sitting on a Vinyl couch, in shorts and in over 100 degree weather? Can you say having to be surgically removed from said couch? :)


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