From John Thorn's 'Baseball in the Garden of Eden'

Page 324
Note 123

"Pete O'Brien: Creighton posed for a photographer in the backswing of his underhand motion; the image is preserved as the front of a carte de visite issued after his death. Glued to the back of the card was a tattered and torn biographical note, the source of the Pete O'Brien quotation cited. Mark Rucker and I found his card in the archives of Culver Pictures in 1983."

If in fact the card that Corey has has bio glued to the back of a photograph then we can say two things:

1. The card was issued by Peck & Snyder after 1870 (when it moved to it's 126 Nassau St address). The card is both pieces.

2. It is unlikely that Peck & Snyder went out and grabbed some old images and glued their bio/address to the back. They probably had a photographer print up some new images from old negatives. If the front picture predates the card's issuance by Peck & Snyder, then it is most likely not a Peck & Snyder product.

Now the question is why would Peck & Snyder print a Creighton card after 1870. I keep coming back to the likelihood that it was made for an anniversary. The tenth anniversary of Creighton's death would be a somewhat solemn occasion, not one where gaudy advertising on the back of a card was appropriate. Therefore, a bio of Creighton made more sense. That seems to explain the different backs.
Also, the reference to Flanley, as I noted previously, does not appear to refer to Flanley playing when the card was issued, simply playing at a time discussed in the bio.
Finally, there are several references as to when Peck & Snyder joined forces, and they all say 1868. Till I see some conflicting information I am forced to believe this to be accurate.

Jay,

If I ever need assistance on a matter to help evaluate evidence, please don't be offended if I don't call you.:D

Corey-I am never offended when you don't call me. Just remember, we are all just searching for the truth. :p

Corey, thank you for posting the back. I have been curious about it since I first saw it in the Smithsonian book.

Do you think there is a chance that P&S just pasted the bio over their ad on the back? Does it measure similarly to the team cards?

Without checking I can't be sure, but even if the bio is pasted over, I doubt there is an ad underneath. As to size, assuming it is trimmed, we can only approximate the original dimensions, but my guess is it would be in the range of other known trade cards.

This has been a very interesting discussion, but for it to proceed from here Corey would need to examine the back closely and figure out exactly what is going on. We need to know if the bio is glued on, and if so is it made of the same good quality paper stock of other P & S trade cards, or is it different paper stock and not part of the original production. I know I've suggested it is almost impossible that it could be a newspaper clipping that somehow fits the exact dimensions of the card, but we still need to know for sure. Then maybe we can develop a more cohesive theory.

Problem is card is framed and for me to inspect the back, I would have to take it out of the frame.

Well I guess we will be left to conjecture.:o

I just got off the phone with Mark Rucker, who was the original owner of the Creighton trade card. He said he is certain that the biography and ad on the back were not pasted on, but were part of the original trade card as issued. I asked him why John Thorn believed that the back was glued on and he said John was in error.

So we can now say with confidence that this was issued by Peck and Snyder. What is still uncertain is when it was made. Based on Gary's discovery that the company moved to Nassau Street in 1870, my guess is all the known baseball images were issued around that date. And it also appears that the first images of the Red Stockings available to the public were the CdV's with the Ann Street address. But I also recognize that this may not be entirely correct.

Barry-Based on Gary's article I'd bet the Creighton came after the team cards. Maybe for the 25th anniversary of Creighton's death (just kidding Corey).

Maybe it was made for the centennial in 1962.;)

dunno
 

I dunno Jay. I saw one at Target yesterday...Right next to the Topps cards.

Yah, I bought a pack and got the Harry Wright signed telegram chase card with my Creighton.

I contacted John Thorn today and he said the reverse of the Creighton was in tatters and that Mark and he struggled to read the biography. He said the back looked like it had been removed from a scrapbook. He also said he was under the impression the biography had been pasted on, but with the passing of so many years since viewing the card in 1983, he couldn't be sure.

Mark had the card in his possession for around ten years, from roughly 1985 to 1995. John Thorn may have seen it once. I am going to go with Mark's memory on this one. Yes, it is tattered, but I believe the back was printed with the card.

just a question
 

Hey Barry or Corey,
Have either of ya'll, or anyone in this thread, ever seen another 19th century card with the back printed anything like that?
Great discussion, by the way.

I am reasonably certain that is correct. The fact that I have no vivid memory of anything peculiar about the verso suggests the bio was printed onto the card. Had it instead been pasted on, that is something I believe would have stood out about the card and stayed in my memory.

Leon, off the top of my head, no, at least in regard to detailed biographical info. But with exception of pirate cards, to my knowledge all trade cards, cdvs and cabinet cards have something printed on the verso. So printing a detailed biography would not be a difficult task.

I have seen boxing trade cards similar to this back. The back of this Stevengraph of John L. Sullivan is similar as well depicting the bio on the back of the mount.

While not common, I have seen the back of 19th century cabinet mounts contain print specific to the photo on front. I have an 1886 cabinet of a baseball game in progress with printed information about the game on back.

I believe that you will find there is a big difference in back printing on "trade cards" and CDV's. CDV's generally have little info other a photographers info as he wanted to sell more of them. Trade cards were for the merchants benefit to advertise and generally have a lot more information.

I think this card if in fact is 1 piece and not glued together has been severely cut down and could in fact be from a larger size trade card from 10-20 years after the death of Creighton. It has no resemblance of a CDV circa 1860-1870's.

Scott

Another Creighton surfaces in NY Library:

Hidden Treasure Discovered in NYPL’s Spalding Collection